Powerlifting Did Something Right

[GrouchyUSMC]

Just wait until the next olympics. Once men will al the female titles this whole debacle will go away, srs.

Imagine the outcome in countries less concerned about individual rights. Oh hey, Joe, you're a great male gymnast but you didn't make the cut to the men's team. So guess what? We're making you a woman now to compete for us on the women's team. Sorry if you don't want to be female, but welcome to big government.

[itsagoodday]

And then they invented Wilks for powerlifting, but people forgot and kept worrying about stupid sh*t. Go to a site like this and sort by Wilks. Suddenly 7 of the top 10 best overall powerlifting results are from women. As in, women that are born women, as far as I know.

https://www.openpowerlifting.org/

And why the f*ck people think that all women would think the same on any subject is beyond me. Some will be strongly against it. Some will be strongly for it. Some just won't care. I personally don't care. If you're transgender because that's the way you feel you were born, do whatever the heck you want to do. I'll share a locker room with you, I'll share a powerlifting platform with you. Although if you do that "chick in a locker room" thing where you ask me if I have spare feminine hygiene products, I will be really confused.

[GrouchyUSMC]

And then they invented Wilks for powerlifting, but people forgot and kept worrying about stupid sh*t. Go to a site like this and sort by Wilks. Suddenly 7 of the top 10 best overall powerlifting results are from women. As in, women that are born women, as far as I know.

https://www.openpowerlifting.org/

And why the f*ck people think that all women would think the same on any subject is beyond me. Some will be strongly against it. Some will be strongly for it. Some just won't care. I personally don't care. If you're transgender because that's the way you feel you were born, do whatever the heck you want to do. I'll share a locker room with you, I'll share a powerlifting platform with you. Although if you do that "chick in a locker room" thing where you ask me if I have spare feminine hygiene products, I will be really confused.

In the same federation, weight class, and age group that same powerlifter I referenced scored a Wilks of almost 50 points higher than the #1 spot right now.

[itsagoodday]

In the same federation, weight class, and age group that same powerlifter I referenced scored a Wilks of almost 50 points higher than the #1 spot right now.

Bzzzt. Wrong. She totaled 971 @ 179 bodyweight, giving her a Wilks of 399, which isn't particularly noteworthy in the world of powerlifting. Even if I restrict that database to ONLY Female, Raw, and the 181 class, she would be at #257 in overall rankings.

Now if I let that database rank overall for Raw, Female, regardless of weight class, it ranks her at #2875.

And that's not even taking into consideration that she's wearing knee sleeves, which can be considered Raw or Wrapped, depending on the federation.

[GrouchyUSMC]

Bzzzt. Wrong. She totaled 971 @ 179 bodyweight, giving her a Wilks of 399, which isn't particularly noteworthy in the world of powerlifting. Even if I restrict that database to ONLY Female, Raw, and the 181 class, she would be at #257 in overall rankings.

Now if I let that database rank overall for Raw, Female, regardless of weight class, it ranks her at #2875.

And that's not even taking into consideration that she's wearing knee sleeves, which can be considered Raw or Wrapped, depending on the federation.

Try the same federation 100% Raw, women 40-44, under 181. The #1 Wilks record from 2007 was a 358.93 (285/200/390) with a total of 875. That’s why I said same federation, age, and weight class before.

[itsagoodday]

Try the same federation 100% Raw, women 40-44, under 181. The #1 Wilks record from 2007 was a 358.93 (285/200/390) with a total of 875. That’s why I said same federation, age, and weight class before.

Yeah, here's the thing about powerlifting. There are a ton of federations and individual federation records are pretty meaningless, especially when you get into the smaller feds like 100% Raw where they just don't have a ton of lifters. When you start breaking stuff down finitely by age, weight, and gear in the women's divisions, it's pretty common to be the only person to show up. I have held a number of "world records" in the federation that I have competed in, and it's absolute bullsh*t... I was the only person to ever compete in that exact division.

But OK, I'll play your game. When I sort for 100% Raw, women 40-44, Raw, and the 181 class, exactly 9 women have EVER competed in that division. Ever. OMG, that person is the best of 9 in one division in one federation. People who are actually impacted by this... pretty much nobody.

[Jtbny]

Yeah, here's the thing about powerlifting. There are a ton of federations and individual federation records are pretty meaningless, especially when you get into the smaller feds like 100% Raw where they just don't have a ton of lifters. When you start breaking stuff down finitely by age, weight, and gear in the women's divisions, it's pretty common to be the only person to show up. I have held a number of "world records" in the federation that I have competed in, and it's absolute bullsh*t... I was the only person to ever compete in that exact division.

But OK, I'll play your game. When I sort for 100% Raw, women 40-44, Raw, and the 181 class, exactly 9 women have EVER competed in that division. Ever. OMG, that person is the best of 9 in one division in one federation. People who are actually impacted by this... pretty much nobody.

But Kelly, your argument lends credibility to having a separate transgender category in PL, doesn't it? The sport is already splintered up in to many divisions what would adding one more hurt?

[itsagoodday]

But Kelly, your argument lends credibility to having a separate transgender category in PL, doesn't it? The sport is already splintered up in to many divisions what would adding one more hurt?

<shrug>

I happen to think it's already fractured into too many divisions, but you're right that adding more would make little difference. I'm sure as with all other debatable points in powerlifting, different feds will wind up with different answers to the subject, and people can compete in whatever they're comfortable with. I also had no problem with what was proposed earlier by RPS (and later retracted under death threats), that trans women could compete with the non-tested / drug-enhanced female athletes. I'm not debating that trans athletes don't have an advantage. But I do NOT think it's an advantage that automatically bypasses all of their female-born-female competitors, because clearly it does not. And frankly as a competitive female powerlifter, I was more concerned about the unfair advantages of extremely short, flexible women. Frigging 6" bench and sumo deadlift ROM.

[Bando]

Not an argument. Why do you want to hear from my female lifters? I already know they’re against the idea.

And why would you dismiss my beliefs? I am their coach, remember? Don’t you think I should have a say in the matter?

I train my lifters hard. Both genders. My lifters give it 100% and then some. How is it fair when my females train with all they got only to be beaten by a trans?

And you ask if I ever met a female powerlifter. Of course. I produced a young female PLer (who was a competitive weightlifter but did PL for fun) who set state record in all three lifts and set a world record on the deadlift in her class. The federation was RPS. Here’s proof.

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...ad+powerlifter

There are only two genders. Why is it hard to understand?

In JTBNY's example the coach pulled the competitors as they feared for the safety of the athletes. In your case the only injury is the butthurt to an elderly coach crying about unfairness. Let the athletes do their thing on game day, your job is training them to be the best they can be at that point, not exert your moral superiority.

[GrouchyUSMC]

Yeah, here's the thing about powerlifting. There are a ton of federations and individual federation records are pretty meaningless, especially when you get into the smaller feds like 100% Raw where they just don't have a ton of lifters. When you start breaking stuff down finitely by age, weight, and gear in the women's divisions, it's pretty common to be the only person to show up. I have held a number of "world records" in the federation that I have competed in, and it's absolute bullsh*t... I was the only person to ever compete in that exact division.

But OK, I'll play your game. When I sort for 100% Raw, women 40-44, Raw, and the 181 class, exactly 9 women have EVER competed in that division. Ever. OMG, that person is the best of 9 in one division in one federation. People who are actually impacted by this... pretty much nobody.

Well aware of powerlifting. I competed extensively in the past and my wife was one of the top 20 female raw powerlifters in her weight class before we started having children.

This is significant because it’s the first case but it won’t be the last. Less of an impact in powerlifting due to the fact that you can have 28 competitors and 50 trophies awarded in some feds, but once you start talking big money for certain sports you will see more and more of it. In a decade or two some of the Asian countries who don’t have a strong view of individual rights will most likely have entire teams of transgender women for the Olympics. Whether those men want to be women or not. Draw a line in the sand now, or see women’s sports completely overrun with this new breed of “woman”.

[Bando]

In a decade or two some of the Asian countries who don’t have a strong view of individual rights will most likely have entire teams of transgender women for the Olympics. Whether those men want to be women or not. Draw a line in the sand now, or see women’s sports completely overrun with this new breed of “woman”.

You sound like the people decrying Black players in MLB in the era of the Negro leagues. You know what diversity did for baseball? Made for better games.

[itsagoodday]

Whether those men want to be women or not. Draw a line in the sand now, or see women’s sports completely overrun with this new breed of “woman”.

ROFLMAO

It won't happen, but thanks for adding a ridiculous level of paranoia to the conversation.

[Bando]

ROFLMAO

It won't happen, but thanks for adding a ridiculous level of paranoia to the conversation.

It's worth noting that the gender reassignment drugs taken by these individuals would preclude them from olympic competition. Beating those drug tests isn't like beating your probation officer's piss test for pot.

[Karl_Hungus]

You sound like the people decrying Black players in MLB in the era of the Negro leagues. You know what diversity did for baseball? Made for better games.

Then I imagine that you would be cool with cis-men playing women's sports because the wonders of diversity would make women's sporting events even more awesome.

ROFLMAO

It won't happen, but thanks for adding a ridiculous level of paranoia to the conversation.

It IS starting to become a problem on smaller scales. I've read several stories in which trans "women" are dominating high school women's sports (track and field, wrestling, etc.) and the girls find it very discouraging and demoralizing. Not to mention the cycling example FLEX cited. Trans "women" in sports is a relatively new phenomenon and it is already causing problems. It is only going to get worse.

Nobody is saying they should not be allowed to compete. They just shouldn't be competing against biological women. It makes no sense to put the vast majority at a disadvantage to accommodate the tiny percentage of trans people.

[Bando]

Then I imagine that you would be cool with cis-men playing women's sports because the wonders of diversity would make women's sporting events even more awesome.

My gym has mirrors behind the racks and at the dumbell racks. The only lifter I have any business bitching about is the one in the mirror.

The level of White Knighting ITT is pretty extrodinary. Then to argue with a legit female competitor about her experience really takes the cake. Good Grief.

[induced_drag]

And then they invented Wilks for powerlifting, Go to a site like this and sort by Wilks. Suddenly 7 of the top 10 best overall powerlifting results are from women. As in, women that are born women, as far as I know.

You realize that "wilks" is an artificial means of comparing competitors across different bodyweights. There exists inherent bias in the equation. Drawing the conclusion that women are better powerlifters and are stronger than men from your above statement would obviously be silly. Wilks is accepted but not the only statistical means of comparing athletes. Each one has it's own bias as no one formula can account for all the variables.

I'm not debating that trans athletes don't have an advantage. But I do NOT think it's an advantage that automatically bypasses all of their female-born-female competitors, because clearly it does not.

Nature is a bell curve. We call all talk exceptions, but there is no denying that (as a population) men are stronger and faster than women...period. There is no debating this. Sure the strongest woman 2 SDT to the right of the curve may indeed be stronger than the weakest men 2SDT to the left. These are points people try to argue, but again, they are silly really. Men are stronger than women and going through male puberty gives men many of these advantages. Suppressing men's hormones does not change their frames or many of the underlying advantages.

I just find it obnoxious at the general acceptance of this principle that people think a gender can be changed. I am all for the freedom of the individual to live as they choose. But there is no one, born a man (or woman) that does not die as one. (regardless of what organs they want to cut off). The idea is so ridiculous that I cant believe sane people even debate this. I only thank God that I dont have to work in a field that my job depended on being overly PC. If iit did, I think I would quit. I just could not live with myself for going along with this insanity.

You know....if we are all so "equal", why even have "womens" sports anyway? Get rid of them all. Just have "sports".

[induced_drag]

My gym has mirrors behind the racks and at the dumbell racks. The only lifter I have any business bitching about is the one in the mirror.

The level of White Knighting ITT is pretty extrodinary. Then to argue with a legit female competitor about her experience really takes the cake. Good Grief.

Bando my friend....I am afraid your time on college campuses has really gotten to you.

[itsagoodday]

Then to argue with a legit female competitor about her experience really takes the cake.

??? I didn't see this anywhere.

You realize that "wilks" is an artificial means of comparing competitors across different bodyweights. There exists inherent bias in the equation. Drawing the conclusion that women are better powerlifters and are stronger than men from your above statement would obviously be silly. Wilks is accepted but not the only statistical means of comparing athletes. Each one has it's own bias as no one formula can account for all the variables.

Wilks is a tool that accepts the fact that more mass moves more mass. If a 100 lb person lifts 1000 pounds, they are considered to be a substantially better lifter than someone who weighs 400 lbs and lifted the same 1000 lbs. I don't think anyone would argue that aspect of it. I am also not saying it's perfect. It would also say that a 4'6" person who weighs 150 lbs is no different than a 6'6" person who weighs 150 lbs, which I would disagree with.

If you are referring to absolute strength, then yeah the guys that lifted 2000 lbs is stronger than the guy who lifted 1900 lbs, is stronger than the guy who lifted 1800 lbs, and so on and so forth, and nobody cares about the details beyond that absolute number. And yes, men are usually stronger, if that's what you're looking at.

You know....if we are all so "equal", why even have "womens" sports anyway? Get rid of them all. Just have "sports".

I have never argued that we are all equal, and I wouldn't, because it's stupid. I stated that being born male would be an advantage competing against females, particularly natty females, but it's also not the only potential advantage your competitors may have in any sport. And I do not believe that it is a guaranteed I'm-gonna-win-no-matter-what situation. Because we aren't all equal and there are a whole lot of variables going on.

I don't know how individual sports are going to deal with trans athletes today, but they're all clearly trying to figure it out and I don't envy them the job, because nobody is going to find a solution that satisfies everyone. I think our problems as a society tend to outpace our technology. Maybe in 50 years there will be only be one powerlifting division, where we get scanned when we walk into a meet and are granted a coefficient based upon our current hormonal profile, any drugs present in our system, biomechanical advantages, or whatever else. I probably won't be around to see it, but if I do happen to walk into a meet when I'm 100 years old, they'd better damn well give me a favorable coefficient for being the oldest idiot there.

[Bando]

Bando my friend....I am afraid your time on college campuses has really gotten to you.

I gotta lot of respect for you and your work but this may be the only time I get to point out that I have 7 first place trophies and you only have one. Only difference was I suited up and got on the platform. There's a lot of places for coulda, shoulda, woulda but this conversation is about competition.

Only dogs in the fight so far are JTBNY with a team sport, Kelly who's comments I can't make heads or tails of, and Norwichgrad who is training athletes for the 1930 games.

[itsagoodday]

Kelly who's comments I can't make heads or tails of

Oh hell, am I doing that again? I need an editor.

[KyleAaron]

Yeah, here's the thing about powerlifting. There are a ton of federations and individual federation records are pretty meaningless, especially when you get into the smaller feds like 100% Raw where they just don't have a ton of lifters.[...] People who are actually impacted by this... pretty much nobody.

That's powerlifting. Other sports are relevant because what is a rule for one sport will become rules for others.

If you're going to say, "well hardly anyone competes in PL anyway, so what does it matter?" then by that reasoning we can abolish drug testing, and in fact abolish masters and women's divisions altogether - you just have to lift alongside the men. And abolish weight classes, too. "People who are actually impacted by this... pretty much nobody."

Most powerlifting federations would like more people competing. Likewise, other sports. You don't really see players being paid millions of dollars to play in leagues and yet not see kids playing that sport at local parks; professional sports support amateur sports, and vice versa.

With that in mind, I am in favour of things which encourage people to compete. Not because I really care about competition, but because for every 1 competitive lifter there at least 10 other people who take it up for their health. With close on 70% of people in the West overweight or obese, with 2/3 of people who enter aged care homes dying within 12 months, and so on - well, we need people to do things for their health. And lifting or some sport is one of those things.

I am against anything which acts as a barrier to entry for people's participation in being physically active. In lifting, those barriers are things like drugs, squat suits and bench shirts, monolifts, dozens of federations, slight knee bends accepted as squats, gymnastic back bends accepted as bench presses, and so on. Other obstacles are things like the macho meathead image of the sport, tattoes and Pantera playing.

I believe that having people who have been through a masculine adolescence compete against ciswomen likewise acts as a barrier. It makes powerlifting even more comical and absurd than it already is.

It has a greater impact than you imagine, because it's not just about today's competitors. And as I said, what is a rule for one sport will eventually become a rule for all sports, the only argument is which particular rule is going to become universal.

Here's an example of an inconsistent rule affecting a larger group than powerlifters: athletics, this is an argument between the IAAF and the IOC. It affects every track and field athlete.

According to the IOC guidelines, transwomen can compete if they have lived at least two years as women, and present with under 10nmol/dl testosterone, while over 5nmol/dl for ciswomen is considered a positive doping violation. The normal range for ciswomen is 0.2-2.4, and for cismen 8-40. Which is to say, a transwoman can have higher testosterone levels than a cisman and compete, and higher levels than a ciswoman taking drugs.

A consistent rule would be 5 for trans and ciswomen both, or allowing ciswomen to dope up to 10.

The IOC is never going to accept ciswomen doping up to 10, so that leaves 5 as the possible limit for both. The problem is that after treatment begins, the transwoman's levels drop within a couple of years to below 10, but take a decade or more to get under 5. A decade is essentially a top athlete's entire career in most cases, especially when you add a couple of years for the initial transition. So that a matched level of 5 or under would effectively exclude transwomen.

Thus, in the name of being inclusive of transwomen, the IOC has decided to allow them an unfair advantage over ciswomen. Now, as there are few transwomen athletes, this will affect few competitive results. But the IOC working with WADA has not hesitated to go back even 8 years to remove medals from people because of positive doping violations, including giving an athlete currently serving a drug suspension a bronze medal because the two guys above him got pinged.

So the IOC and WADA have already established the principle that every athlete and every last podium result are important. Except when it comes to transwomen, then oh well the ciswomen miss out.

Consistent rules are fair.

Again, I don't care much about these sports as such. But when people look and see obviously stupid stuff in a sport, it brings down participation generally. And everyone gets fatter, weaker and sicker. And that I do care about.

[Bando]

Oh hell, am I doing that again? I need an editor.

Maybe we just understand each other better in person. Over a triple cheesburger run let's say...

[Karl_Hungus]

My gym has mirrors behind the racks and at the dumbell racks. The only lifter I have any business bitching about is the one in the mirror.

So, you acknowledge that your diversity argument really doesn't make a lot of sense.

The level of White Knighting ITT is pretty extrodinary. Then to argue with a legit female competitor about her experience really takes the cake. Good Grief.

Who exactly is being White Knighted? And who is arguing with her experience? I made no references whatsoever to her experiences.

You realize that "wilks" is an artificial means of comparing competitors across different bodyweights. There exists inherent bias in the equation. Drawing the conclusion that women are better powerlifters and are stronger than men from your above statement would obviously be silly. Wilks is accepted but not the only statistical means of comparing athletes. Each one has it's own bias as no one formula can account for all the variables.





Nature is a bell curve. We call all talk exceptions, but there is no denying that (as a population) men are stronger and faster than women...period. There is no debating this. Sure the strongest woman 2 SDT to the right of the curve may indeed be stronger than the weakest men 2SDT to the left. These are points people try to argue, but again, they are silly really. Men are stronger than women and going through male puberty gives men many of these advantages. Suppressing men's hormones does not change their frames or many of the underlying advantages.

I just find it obnoxious at the general acceptance of this principle that people think a gender can be changed. I am all for the freedom of the individual to live as they choose. But there is no one, born a man (or woman) that does not die as one. (regardless of what organs they want to cut off). The idea is so ridiculous that I cant believe sane people even debate this. I only thank God that I dont have to work in a field that my job depended on being overly PC. If iit did, I think I would quit. I just could not live with myself for going along with this insanity.

You know....if we are all so "equal", why even have "womens" sports anyway? Get rid of them all. Just have "sports".

Well said. On spread.

Bando my friend....I am afraid your time on college campuses has really gotten to you.

^^ This. College kids, sheltered by academia and unburdened by the pragmatics and nuance of real life can make these goofy unidimensional arguments without really considering their consequences. Feeling self-righteous and virtuous is justification enough. By the time you hit 50 though, you shouldn't be jumping on every PC trend that makes its way across the college campus.

[induced_drag]

@itsagoodday.

True, there are thousands of variables we can break things down into. Along with that, hell...we could have just as many divisions based on these variances. Taking it to an extreme, we could go to the cellular level. Then everyone could be a champion based on their own genome.

At the end of the day, the complexities involved just add to the confusion. Life is not fair, the world is not fair. But we draw the lines at "reasonable" places to even the playing field without becoming so cumbersome that they become impossible to maintain. Hence, Male and Female in most sports, and weight classes across all types of strength-based sports. It is no perfect, but it does work reasonably well. (that is until you start some of the insanity progressives bring to the table today).


Men dont belong competing with women. Even castrated. I guess if some women are OK with this, it is fine. But there is such a negative push back of anyone speaking out against this, I doubt many women would risk stating their real opinions. Such as in olympic level weightlifting.

[itsagoodday]

That's powerlifting. Other sports are relevant because what is a rule for one sport will become rules for others.

Fair enough. But when I am referring to one person in one division of one powerlifting federation... yeah, that really does influence nothing. I don't even expect it to influence other feds, they'll all do their own thing anyway. If powerlifting had any sort of united front, it might be different. But it doesn't. Powerlifting was probably a really rotten example to use for this entire conversation.

Here's an example of an inconsistent rule affecting a larger group than powerlifters: athletics, this is an argument between the IAAF and the IOC. It affects every track and field athlete.

According to the IOC guidelines, transwomen can compete if they have lived at least two years as women, and present with under 10nmol/dl testosterone, while over 5nmol/dl for ciswomen is considered a positive doping violation. The normal range for ciswomen is 0.2-2.4, and for cismen 8-40. Which is to say, a transwoman can have higher testosterone levels than a cisman and compete, and higher levels than a ciswoman taking drugs.

A consistent rule would be 5 for trans and ciswomen both, or allowing ciswomen to dope up to 10.

The IOC is never going to accept ciswomen doping up to 10, so that leaves 5 as the possible limit for both. The problem is that after treatment begins, the transwoman's levels drop within a couple of years to below 10, but take a decade or more to get under 5. A decade is essentially a top athlete's entire career in most cases, especially when you add a couple of years for the initial transition. So that a matched level of 5 or under would effectively exclude transwomen.

Interesting, thanks for posting that. In this scenario, enforcing a single limit for both is the only thing that makes sense to me. I would be inclined to go with 5, and let people figure out how to deal with their own timing issues once that is a known, consistently enforced value.

[induced_drag]

I gotta lot of respect for you and your work but this may be the only time I get to point out that I have 7 first place trophies and you only have one. Only difference was I suited up and got on the platform. There's a lot of places for coulda, shoulda, woulda but this conversation is about competition.

.

Bando....that is a stupid statement. I understand and respect your desire to compete. You apparently dont understand nor respect my desire not to. I dont intend to take anything away from what you value. But I put no value in the paper 'records' or trophy handouts from such events. The truth of the way I feel about most powerlifting competitions, is most victories would hold almost nothing for me. People only 'win' these because so few people even show up, let alone real competitors. I dont need participation certificates.

Regardless if no one gets it or not, just doing it for me was always enough. The few comps I did were just to experience the event with friends and share in the experience.

I also feel I have more than had my day in the spotlight in sporting events when I was younger. Now it is my turn to focus on my kids and give them the same opportunities that I had. I would much rather be at my son's soccer game or hell even his practice or taking my daughter to dance and watching her, than "competing" for my own selfish indulgences.

Dont get all preachy like you actually think paying a fee and showing up for something somehow is an "accomplishment". Get real and think of what you are saying. It is OK if you want to compete, just dont take digs at me. Kind of a low blow. You do you.....I'll do me. I dont expect you to understand.

[Bando]

^^ This. College kids, sheltered by academia and unburdened by the pragmatics and nuance of real life can make these goofy unidimensional arguments without really considering their consequences. Feeling self-righteous and virtuous is justification enough. By the time you hit 50 though, you shouldn't be jumping on every PC trend that makes its way across the college campus.

I had a kid squatting 550 at around 181 year before last and a kid box squatting 405 x 10 before that @175. But this isn't about them.

There are real people being affected by this, not just old keyboard warrior has-beens

[itsagoodday]

Maybe we just understand each other better in person. Over a triple cheesburger run let's say...

I thought you were going to help me figure out where to set up my home gym stuff

Difficulty level 10/10
- super short basement height with very large centipedes running around
- main level hardwood floors 100 years old
- leaky garage

Hmmmm.

[Bando]

Bando....that is a stupid statement. I understand and respect your desire to compete. You apparently dont understand nor respect my desire not to. I dont intend to take anything away from what you value. But I put no value in the paper 'records' or trophy handouts from such events. The truth of the way I feel about most powerlifting competitions, is most victories would hold almost nothing for me. People only 'win' these because so few people even show up, let alone real competitors. I dont need participation certificates.

Regardless if no one gets it or not, just doing it for me was always enough. The few comps I did were just to experience the event with friends and share in the experience.

I also feel I have more than had my day in the spotlight in sporting events when I was younger. Now it is my turn to focus on my kids and give them the same opportunities that I had. I would much rather be at my son's soccer game or hell even his practice or taking my daughter to dance and watching her, than "competing" for my own selfish indulgences.

Dont get all preachy like you actually think paying a fee and showing up for something somehow is an "accomplishment". Get real and think of what you are saying. It is OK if you want to compete, just dont take digs at me. Kind of a low blow. You do you.....I'll do me. I dont expect you to understand.

I messed up, sorry.

Only 6

[Bando]

I thought you were going to help me figure out where to set up my home gym stuff

Difficulty level 10/10
- super short basement height with very large centipedes running around
- main level hardwood floors 100 years old
- leaky garage

Hmmmm.

OK will put my Dad hat and be by.