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  1. #61
    Registered User monty097's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    Here’s a great idea, let’s give everything to the rich and make everyone who wants to be middle class be almost required to have two working married people forced to have strangers raise their children. Surely the rich will let some crumbs fall off their table that the rest of us can fight over.

    But we have iPhones so we shouldn’t complain.

    Damn you conservatives are so easily led by your masters. I guess that’s why most of you need religion so much.
    That's rich coming from the side that wants more government
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  2. #62
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    So, America isn't as developed as other countries. America is thriving and the only country in the world with a positive ROI. The only country in the world that is not in or near recession.

    What world do you live in, Tammy?

    Healthcare in America can be improved, but not as Medicare for All. The US can't even hardly pay for Medicare for Some as it is, so how could we possibly afford a $32 Trillion Medicare for All? Rhetorical question because I don't expect or need an answer.
    $32 trillion per year? That doesn't make sense...the total healthcare industry is currently about $3.5 trillion? So expenses would increase 10 fold? Or is that over a 5 or 10 year period?
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  3. #63
    Tonight, we make soap. compan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    Here’s a great idea, let’s give everything to the rich and make everyone who wants to be middle class be almost required to have two working married people forced to have strangers raise their children. Surely the rich will let some crumbs fall off their table that the rest of us can fight over.

    But we have iPhones so we shouldn’t complain.

    Damn you conservatives are so easily led by your masters. I guess that’s why most of you need religion so much.
    Ironic when liberals now treat the government like their church.


    To the OP, most millennials don't actually know what socialism is. They're all for it until they only take home 50% of their pay and their quality of life doesn't change.
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  4. #64
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    No, that's a totally deficient and childish way of looking at the debate.

    If people who otherwise would not have recieved healthcare, and ended up incapacitated/ill/dead, receive healthcare through the government, then their freedom to seek out and achieve their goals/make worthwhile choices about their life is greatly increased. Even if it came about through a billionaire being taxed more of his wealth. That's just one example, but you get the point.

    The american right thinks the only thing that defines freedom is "less gubmint" but that's never been the case. If you look at the history of western thought/philosophy that has only been one aspect of human freedom.
    You think the parents of anchor babies should receive free healthcare for their child birth as soon as the vermin come over the border?
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  5. #65
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    Here’s a great idea, let’s give everything to the rich and make everyone who wants to be middle class be almost required to have two working married people forced to have strangers raise their children. Surely the rich will let some crumbs fall off their table that the rest of us can fight over.

    But we have iPhones so we shouldn’t complain.

    Damn you conservatives are so easily led by your masters. I guess that’s why most of you need religion so much.
    Progressivism what destroyed the nuclear family.
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  6. #66
    Registered User RamataKahn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    Here’s a great idea, let’s give everything to the rich and make everyone who wants to be middle class be almost required to have two working married people forced to have strangers raise their children. Surely the rich will let some crumbs fall off their table that the rest of us can fight over.

    But we have iPhones so we shouldn’t complain.

    Damn you conservatives are so easily led by your masters. I guess that’s why most of you need religion so much.
    You literally say nothing with every post you make. Nothing.
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  7. #67
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ten_Hearts View Post
    $32 trillion per year? That doesn't make sense...the total healthcare industry is currently about $3.5 trillion? So expenses would increase 10 fold? Or is that over a 5 or 10 year period?
    It is estimated $32 Trillion over 10 years. But, I should have said that.
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  8. #68
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TaeBoNinja View Post
    Progressivism what destroyed the nuclear family.
    Lol at conservatives and their regurgitated bile. The "nuclear family" basically wasn't a thing until the past century, and most prominently in the post WWII period. Prior to that such an arrangement was not economically viable for most, and generally people lived in large extended households often with others who were not even blood related.

    If it has been dying in the past few decades, it's because the average American hasn't seen their purchasing power rise in years, is becoming less financially secure, more depressed and overworked, saddled with more and more debt just to afford basic things, and even when they do have kids they are forced to let paid strangers watch over said kids while they clock in more hours at the corporate ****house.

    You can thank the great 80s neoliberalism from Reagan onwards for that.
    "What has destroyed every previous civilization has been the tendency to the unequal distribution of wealth and power" - Henry George

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  9. #69
    Registered User knightofday's Avatar
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    LOL at title, dont believe its 70% for a second haha. Unless of course they cherry picked the participants, which of course is useless. Aint worried about it, theyll grow up and learn anyway
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  10. #70
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knightofday View Post
    LOL at title, dont believe its 70% for a second haha. Unless of course they cherry picked the participants, which of course is useless. Aint worried about it, theyll grow up and learn anyway
    It probably is accurate, because "socialism" is basically a meaningless buzzword that can be used to signify anything.
    "What has destroyed every previous civilization has been the tendency to the unequal distribution of wealth and power" - Henry George

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  11. #71
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    Sanders' plan is estimated to cost about 3.9 tril a year. No gracias.
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  12. #72
    Registered User sy2502's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tamorlane View Post
    Totalitarian governments don’t allow free speech, dissent or protest. It’s typically called “liberal” or “free” media as it is free from the state and capable of reporting on their unethical or illegal activities. In any totalitarian regime including right wing derived ones such as Saudi Arabia do not allow people to criticize the state or gather and protest.
    First you talk of "left wing", now you talk about "liberal". Which is it Tammy? Because, hint, they are NOT the same thing.

    And no, the left is against free speech even in "liberal" countries.

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    "Any person who, by his advertisement, ridicules or holds up to contempt any person or class of persons, on account of the creed, religion, color, denomination, nationality or race of such person or class of persons, shall be guilty of a class D misdemeanor,"

    In September 2014, 54 Democratic senators voted to repeal the First Amendment of the Constitution. They were supporting a proposed constitutional amendment by Sen. Tom Udall, D-N.M., whose stated goal was to overturn the Supreme Court’s landmark Citizens United decision.

    "Too many students feel afraid to speak honestly on campus for fear of offending someone, a new national survey of college students says.
    University censorship regimes are teaching some students not only to live with but to embrace the conformism of thought inculcated through university speech codes, speaker dis-invitations, “safe spaces,” “trigger warnings,” and campus shout-downs of invited speakers, the report demonstrates."
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomlind.../#3b5272331433

    And more...


    As I said Tammy, you are full of chit.
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  13. #73
    Banned A-GAME's Avatar
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    Lol @ posting this as if it's a good thing. Every socialist experiment ends the same way. Go and read a history book, then hang your head in shame, moran.
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  14. #74
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Lol at conservatives and their regurgitated bile. The "nuclear family" basically wasn't a thing until the past century, and most prominently in the post WWII period. Prior to that such an arrangement was not economically viable for most, and generally people lived in large extended households often with others who were not even blood related.

    If it has been dying in the past few decades, it's because the average American hasn't seen their purchasing power rise in years, is becoming less financially secure, more depressed and overworked, saddled with more and more debt just to afford basic things, and even when they do have kids they are forced to let paid strangers watch over said kids while they clock in more hours at the corporate ****house.

    You can thank the great 80s neoliberalism from Reagan onwards for that.
    1) I'm not a conservative

    2) The nuclear family was born in the early 1900's as we went full-swing in the Industrial revolution, and people moved from rural areas to cities/suburbs. Americans prospered under this model, and the country expanded at a rapid pace, particularly with communties popping up all over the place (the West especially).

    3) The demise of the nuclear fmaily was brought about by progressives who demonzied stay at home moms, and the "outdated patriarchy". The move of women from the home to the workplace has led to less wages for men, and more work stress for women. Meanwhile kids now raise themselves, PTAs have fallen off, and communties no longer have social support like they used to. I'm all for women having equal opportunities in the workplace, but this notion that women need to work as much as men is stupid, and why things have gone out of wack. And women still mostly have to deal with home managing after their 8 hour workday. Kids suffer, marriages fail, and people just end up miserable.


    4) They pushed abortion as a virtue, far beyond simply rights in case of extreme circumstances like rape. This has led to smaller families, and less thought in who people choose as sexual partners.

    5) Progressives have pushed socialism relentlessly. A failed system that undercuts innovation, and hard work. We're in debt thanks to this crap. And what benefit does this give us, not much. It does however play a big role in lower wages, which again hurts nuclear famalies.
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  15. #75
    husband, father, trainer KyleAaron's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Vito-C View Post
    Everyone is a socialist until they get their 1st paycheck

    Edit: Wizarded^
    Typically younger people do have more left-leaning views economically, and swing right as they age.

    Most people have grown up in socialism. Families share property in common, and give to people according to need regardless of whether they "earned" it or not. They had free education and healthcare as children (ie someone else paid). They have to share everything, from the loungeroom TV to the toilet. Most people grow up in a socialist community: the family.

    In some families, the children may be asked to contribute in some way by doing small chores; typically the whole process means that it'd be easier just for the parent to do it themselves, but they're hoping to pass on some skills and inculcate some work ethic into the child. This child will be a somewhat leftie young adult, and then as a mature adult may end up anywhere politically.

    In other families, children are simply given things, like piles of cash for their birthday etc. This child will ironically initially be socialist: they're not aware of any limits to available resources, so they're generous with them. But once this person receives their first paycheque, they start to realise that money is limited, and become stingy. They swing from extreme left to extreme right economically. Today's scruffy 20yo waving a socialist placard becomes tomorrow's 40yo accountant on $250k complaining about excessive taxes.

    It's better to bring up your children properly, with the ideas that you have to work to earn your living, but at the same time you have to contribute something for the common good. Then they don't grow up to be moody crying selfish babies, like AOC or Trump.
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    I like the part where they show the % of democrats polled to get this number.. Probably something like over 50%, as usual.

    But they completely avoided showing any of that.. wonder why.
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    Originally Posted by Tamorlane View Post
    America is still considered fairly far right compared to the developed world. The right wing in America is responsible for holding the country back from making progress. It’s why where America should be ranked #1 in things like education and health care are in fact ranked very poorly.

    Those social programs were implemented by the democratic “socialists” and were born out of necessity due to the failures and shortcomings of capitalism.

    The US is still considered a good place for big business because they own the country fuk the people. And of course the American right and NRA are responsible for the amount of guns in circulation which has led to a public safety epidemic and mass shootings almost every week.

    American conservatives have held America back on the international stage and are now being showed up by countries like France, Singapore, Iceland, Canada and China (HK).
    Would it kill you to have an original thought for once? Your copy/paste bull**** is beyond tiresome!!!
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    Originally Posted by cashinout View Post
    where is this "far-right" america you speak of?

    imagine living in a leftist controlled culture and thinking it's "far-right" LMFAO
    He’s basically an illiterate retard. LMFAO LMFAO!!!!
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  19. #79
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    First you talk of "left wing", now you talk about "liberal". Which is it Tammy? Because, hint, they are NOT the same thing.

    And no, the left is against free speech even in "liberal" countries.

    "Surrey Police investigation over 'misgendering' tweets"
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-surrey-47638527

    Connecticut, a Democratic state has the following statute:
    "Any person who, by his advertisement, ridicules or holds up to contempt any person or class of persons, on account of the creed, religion, color, denomination, nationality or race of such person or class of persons, shall be guilty of a class D misdemeanor,"

    In September 2014, 54 Democratic senators voted to repeal the First Amendment of the Constitution. They were supporting a proposed constitutional amendment by Sen. Tom Udall, D-N.M., whose stated goal was to overturn the Supreme Court’s landmark Citizens United decision.

    "Too many students feel afraid to speak honestly on campus for fear of offending someone, a new national survey of college students says.
    University censorship regimes are teaching some students not only to live with but to embrace the conformism of thought inculcated through university speech codes, speaker dis-invitations, “safe spaces,” “trigger warnings,” and campus shout-downs of invited speakers, the report demonstrates."
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomlind.../#3b5272331433

    And more...


    As I said Tammy, you are full of chit.
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    And again as I explained, more government is not synonymous with less freedom.

    Since you don't advocate anarchism at all, you are in agreement with me. We are merely haggling over price here - ie what exact levels of government involvement in our lives optimises and best secures our livelihoods, wellbeing, opportunities and ability to fulfil our goals.

    You are wrong though, more government(look up the definition) means less freedom unequivocally.
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    Registered User sandaltan's Avatar
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    enacting some socialist measures doesnt mean the entire country is socialist.

    we can have both. capitalist society with some socialist aspects, like universal healthcare and education, for example.
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    Originally Posted by rise21 View Post
    You are wrong though, more government(look up the definition) means less freedom unequivocally.
    Yeah if you're 8 years old maybe
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    enacting some socialist measures doesnt mean the entire country is socialist.

    we can have both. capitalist society with some socialist aspects, like universal healthcare and education, for example.
    Give people the choice

    Pay more taxes, up to 50% and have a Universal healthcare system and others can use insurance. Illegals and freeloaders can only use the universal system
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    Majority of millenials live with their parents/parent till they're 30, and have less than a thousand in the bank. No wonder they support Socialist policies....
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    Originally Posted by rise21 View Post
    You are wrong though, more government(look up the definition) means less freedom unequivocally.
    you are wrong though, because less government means we are free to take away each other's freedom, through theft, murder, scams, etc.

    sometimes government is needed to protect our freedom brah
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    enacting some socialist measures doesnt mean the entire country is socialist.

    we can have both. capitalist society with some socialist aspects, like universal healthcare and education, for example.
    sands, the main socialized measure would be Medicare for All. I am so against it for many reasons, but for one, the US can't even do a good job or afford the current Medicare for Some. What makes anyone believe that we can afford it for All? Not only that, Ms. Warren said just today answering a question about how many jobs would be lost if Medicare for All were implemented. 2 million jobs lost. When a student asked about the 2 million jobs lost, Warren affirmed it as part of the cost. Add that to the $32 Trillion cost over 10 years and then add in poorer service, poorer care, waiting because there will be less doctors, as many would give up as a result of not being paid nearly as much with paperwork skyrocketing. There are practical logistical factors that nobody talks about. They just say, "Medicare for All, yaaay" and assume great healthcare for everyone. In reality, it will be a nightmare, many times worse than Obamacare.

    I don't want to be even part socialist. That does not mean I don't want more fairness. I do. Social programs for example are what are bogging down Europe's economies. European countries aren't fully socialist, but they are in recession.

    I think we can improve with what we have.
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    sands, the main socialized measure would be Medicare for All. I am so against it for many reasons, but for one, the US can't even do a good job or afford the current Medicare for Some. What makes anyone believe that we can afford it for All? Not only that, Ms. Warren said just today answering a question about how many jobs would be lost if Medicare for All were implemented. 2 million jobs lost. When a student asked about the 2 million jobs lost, Warren affirmed it as part of the cost. Add that to the $32 Trillion cost over 10 years and then add in poorer service, poorer care, waiting because there will be less doctors, as many would give up as a result of not being paid nearly as much with paperwork skyrocketing. There are practical logistical factors that nobody talks about. They just say, "Medicare for All, yaaay" and assume great healthcare for everyone. In reality, it will be a nightmare, many times worse than Obamacare.

    I don't want to be even part socialist. That does not mean I don't want more fairness. I do. Social programs for example are what are bogging down Europe's economies. European countries aren't fully socialist, but they are in recession.

    I think we can improve with what we have.
    Mark, I hear you man. But here's the thing: you are predicting a future as if you can actually predict it. You state outcomes! You tell me how things will be.

    but you dont know that. none of us do. we should stop pretending to know what the results will be in 2, 5, 10, 20, 50 years from now. because we dont.

    I think we should start there - that your predictions and assumptions and guesses are exactly that, and that nobody can actually tell us what the end result will be because it hasnt happened yet. you sound a little bit like a stock broker who's predicting the market right before the market does the diametric opposite of what he's SO SURE will happen.

    Maybe if we improve our education system and eliminate corn syrup subsidies we can create a healthier population which requires less healthcare to begin with. and then maybe we can design a system so that every US CITIZEN is entitled to a critical, baseline measure of health insurance, which for most young, healthy people is sufficient. Maybe we can allow optional, paid enhancements for those who want it and can afford it. Maybe we can eliminate middle-men insurance brokers which add enormous costs to the system. Maybe losing 2 million jobs will actually be way better than eating the 500,000 bankruptcies from medical bills that americans declare each and every year. in 4 years 2 million americans will declare bankruptcy from medical bills. maybe us citizens will be happier and more productive and be able to contribute to the economy with the spending power they wouldnt have with crushing medical bills. maybe student will be more than willing to take slightly lower pay as doctors if we eliminate their $300k student loans through education programs. or maybe it turns out that there are plenty of people who are willing, able, and qualified to become doctors EVEN IF the pay is less. I mean hell, look at teachers!

    so i think there is infinitely more to the big picture and most of it is a total guess.

    and the worst thing we can do is just say it wont work and then not even try, because we've convinced ourselves we know how it will end, when in reality we dont know sh*t.
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Lol at conservatives and their regurgitated bile. The "nuclear family" basically wasn't a thing until the past century, and most prominently in the post WWII period. Prior to that such an arrangement was not economically viable for most, and generally people lived in large extended households often with others who were not even blood related.

    If it has been dying in the past few decades, it's because the average American hasn't seen their purchasing power rise in years, is becoming less financially secure, more depressed and overworked, saddled with more and more debt just to afford basic things, and even when they do have kids they are forced to let paid strangers watch over said kids while they clock in more hours at the corporate ****house.

    You can thank the great 80s neoliberalism from Reagan onwards for that.
    So divorce must be non-existent in Socialist countries?
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    you are wrong though, because less government means we are free to take away each other's freedom, through theft, murder, scams, etc.

    sometimes government is needed to protect our freedom brah
    Stahp. Youre lying through your keyboard, saying chit completely opposite of reality.

    You really do sound like straight communist propaganda holy chit
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    Originally Posted by knightofday View Post
    Stahp. Youre lying through your keyboard, saying chit completely opposite of reality.

    You really do sound like straight communist propaganda holy chit
    you used up two lines and said absolutely nothing

    do you actually have a thought here or are you just gonna insult me and add nothing to the conversation? i mean i already know you dont have a real idea to contribute

    if there's no government at all, and people are free to kill and scam each other, then that's not freedom. id like to have government systems in place that enforce laws and give me redress if someone scams me or rips me off. id like the gov to build roads so i can freely drive to other states. id like federal aviation rules so the plane im on doesnt crash and kill me. id like safery standards for food prep and airbags and healthcare

    do you get what im saying? saying more gov is unequivocally less freedom is so fukking stupid it hurts
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