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  1. #61
    Registered User Rabbitjb's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Luc1fer View Post
    I also lean towards potential brain function development as the line, but we should lean very conservatively on this. Like you said first trimester, somewhere clearly before that development.

    Of course the obvious counter argument is that brain function is constantly developing from conception, from the initial replicating DNA cells to the structures that enable those neural pathways.

    A counter to the 'catastrophic brain injury' argument is, if the adult got the diagnosis of brain death but we predicted that within a few months there would be full recovery, would we still be okay with the killing.
    I agree. 20-22 weeks is conservative as the cortex is still completely smooth at 22 weeks and cortical development is far later in pregnancy.

    I see what you’re saying by potential for recovery, that puts an interesting ethical twist on the argument.

    I continue however to take exception to the pro-lifer stance that potentiality for life overrides an actual human being’s domain over their own body. That decision should and must remain in the hands of the individual mother and their physician.

    Pregnancy is not without risk, it places huge demands on a woman’s body and mind that do not end with childbirth, some risks are serious, some are long term, maternal death is not resigned to history.
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  2. #62
    Registered Republican Omnivium's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jessejame5 View Post
    but once you follow the problem through to the conclusion without emotion, pro life is the only morally and logically consistent stance
    This. Conception is the only place to logically draw the line. Anywhere else is arbitrary
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  3. #63
    Registered User Rabbitjb's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Omnivium View Post
    This. Conception is the only place to logically draw the line. Anywhere else is arbitrary
    Really? Over 80% of fertilised ovum don’t make it. That’s not how fertilisation works.

    Biology is arbitrary. There is no logic in saying a fertilised ovum is any line at all
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  4. #64
    Aware since 2004 Witrebel's Avatar
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    In theory I can understand the claim that life starts at the first breath, but I personally think that argument breaks down when you consider the ability to induce labor sooner than "natural". Just defining life as the moment the breath is taken is not good enough for me. I think that from an ethics standpoint, the metric should be "when was the baby viable". So at what point would the fetus, removed from the womb, have a 63% or greater change of survival on its own. This of course gets messy when you start to include the miracle of modern medicine. Certainly that "viability" standard would be different today than it was 50 years ago due to our ability to provide life support. But to me, if a fetus is unlikely to survive in its current stage of development, then it can't be classified as a "baby". It is simply potential.
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  5. #65
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    Originally Posted by Omnivium View Post
    This. Conception is the only place to logically draw the line. Anywhere else is arbitrary
    Are IVF clinics genocide centres?
    "What has destroyed every previous civilization has been the tendency to the unequal distribution of wealth and power" - Henry George

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  6. #66
    Registered Republican Omnivium's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Are IVF clinics genocide centres?
    Nope, but abortion clinics are
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  7. #67
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    I support the ability to abort a child up to 5 years old

    ALL I ASK IS ALL YOU GOT FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES
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  8. #68
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Omnivium View Post
    Nope, but abortion clinics are
    IVF clinics dispose of hundreds of fertilised embryos for every patient. Why are they not genocide centres?
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  9. #69
    Registered User tnel00's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    To be fair those are extreme outliers, What if 99% are as described in the other post and only .001% end up as you described? still worth?
    Yes

    Originally Posted by Omnivium View Post
    This. Conception is the only place to logically draw the line. Anywhere else is arbitrary
    Anything else is an attempt to justify murder

    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    Really? Over 80% of fertilised ovum don’t make it. That’s not how fertilisation works.

    Biology is arbitrary. There is no logic in saying a fertilised ovum is any line at all
    100% of people die. That's not an excuse to end life prematurely
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  10. #70
    Registered User x-trainer ben's Avatar
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    Never heard of a *PRO* abortion person, just people who say the patient and doctor should make the decisions.
    The easiest way to tell when an argument has no merit is when the protagonist mixes in some personal insults
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  11. #71
    🅳🅰🆂 🅸🆃 Luc1fer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pUniCepts View Post
    I am, but not because you just don't want it.
    I watched my dog kill one of it's litter right after birth. I've concluded she sensed a defect in the pup that made it unlikely to survive.
    We have ultrasound and all kinds of other stuff nowadays and we've grown out of touch with nature, and our senses.
    Not saying I could ever abort at any time, because emotions become involved, but being detached from the situation I'm not against it.
    Up to what age are you not against a parent killing their child?
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  12. #72
    Registered User Rabbitjb's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tnel00 View Post
    Yes



    Anything else is an attempt to justify murder



    100% of people die. That's not an excuse to end life prematurely
    And here you are in the realm of religion and ethical debate but against basic biology and science when you try to determine “life” when no individual life can exist


    Originally Posted by x-trainer ben View Post
    Never heard of a *PRO* abortion person, just people who say the patient and doctor should make the decisions.
    Exactly
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  13. #73
    Registered User B.O.L.A.'s Avatar
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    In theory, yes, but with the caveats below...

    -Anyone performing or having one done can and should be publicly humiliated, fired, ostracized, boycotted, etc. Any form of punishment that doesn't violate their rights.
    -Incentives for adoption should be allowed, including paying cash
    -Restrictions should be lifted on birth control and early abortions

    Think with those things in effect late terminations would be almost unheard of. No one wants to kill babies, no one wants to have a huge expensive and dangerous procedure. No woman would do this if they had already had tons of chances to cheaply and easily terminate it early on just by taking a pill, and if you can get paid for delivering the child, and if your public life is ruined by doing it.
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  14. #74
    Registered User Rabbitjb's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by B.O.L.A. View Post
    In theory, yes, but with the caveats below...

    -Anyone performing or having one done can and should be publicly humiliated, fired, ostracized, boycotted, etc. Any form of punishment that doesn't violate their rights.
    -Incentives for adoption should be allowed, including paying cash
    -Restrictions should be lifted on birth control and early abortions

    Think with those things in effect late terminations would be almost unheard of. No one wants to kill babies, no one wants to have a huge expensive and dangerous procedure. No woman would do this if they had already had tons of chances to cheaply and easily terminate it early on just by taking a pill, and if you can get paid for delivering the child, and if your public life is ruined by doing it.
    What about under 16s? Victims of rape? Those having abortions due to health difficulties in foetus or mother?

    What about caring for the 100,000s children already in the woefully inadequate foster system

    Once again late terminations are extremely rare, stats show something like 1% and generally due to health issues

    But I agree free contraception and free access to early abortion consistently results in lower rates of abortion
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  15. #75
    Registered User B.O.L.A.'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    What about under 16s? Victims of rape? Those having abortions due to health difficulties in foetus or mother?
    I'm sure there would be less ostracism, humiliation, firing, etc for them than those who do it on a purely elective basis.

    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    What about caring for the 100,000s children already in the woefully inadequate foster system
    Adoptive newborns are a higher commodity. There are actually a lot of barriers preventing them from being adopted.

    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    Once again late terminations are extremely rare, stats show something like 1% and generally due to health issues
    Yep, and they will be even more rare in the situation I described. Not sure you read my post carefully

    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    But I agree free contraception and free access to early abortion consistently results in lower rates of abortion
    Not free, per se. But free from restriction or interference from outside parties. People who make the contraceptives and early termination meds need to make money on it somehow.
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    Registered User Rabbitjb's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by B.O.L.A. View Post

    Not free, per se. But free from restriction or interference from outside parties. People who make the contraceptives and early termination meds need to make money on it somehow.
    No absolutely financially free

    So that the poor, who have the highest rates of abortion, lack of prospects etc, can have equal quality of care

    Contraceptive choice and anti abortion rhetoric never affects the wealthy

    The US healthcare system is abhorrent to most other countries. Your people die for want of money for basic medicines

    Edit: some States are doing right though. Colorado introduces free contraception available directly from pharmacies and sees a dramatic decline in rates of abortion

    https://coloradosun.com/2019/10/21/c...re-the-reason/
    Last edited by Rabbitjb; 10-22-2019 at 05:25 AM.
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    Registered User tnel00's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    And here you are in the realm of religion and ethical debate but against basic biology and science when you try to determine “life” when no individual life can exist
    Biology says life begins at conception

    https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/a...yoquotes2.html
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  18. #78
    Here's beer Mr Beer's Avatar
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    ^

    Lots of things can be defined as 'life' or 'alive' but a single cell or tiny clump of cells isn't a human being and should have no human rights.
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  19. #79
    Registered User Rabbitjb's Avatar
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    He has a semantic point, I was less than precise with my comment

    Life vs “a human life”

    Suddenly reminded of “The inner life of a cell” ..amazing series of animations of cellular structures, really worth a watch if you have a spare few minutes (would advise on mute cos the soundtrack is irritating as hell) https://xvivo.com/blog/the-inner-lif...ell-animation/
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    If a woman is raped and gets pregnant or there is a danger to the mother then go ahead and have an abortion.

    Other than that tough chit, be more responsible if you don't want to end up with a baby in you.
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    Originally Posted by monty097 View Post
    If a woman is raped and gets pregnant or there is a danger to the mother then go ahead and have an abortion.

    Other than that tough chit, be more responsible if you don't want to end up with a baby in you.
    Childbirth as punishment for mistake, accident or lapse in judgement

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    Originally Posted by tnel00 View Post
    Biology says life begins at conception

    https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/a...yoquotes2.html
    You are linking a Princeton pro-life organization's misunderstanding of what the debate is even about. No, a definition of what an embryo or zygote is from some medical textbook is not important to the issue at hand: whether, for example, a single-celled zygote is considered a human being (among other things, entitled to the same rights of, say, a born human).

    Try to understand what this debate is even about.

    Originally Posted by monty097 View Post
    If a woman is raped and gets pregnant or there is a danger to the mother then go ahead and have an abortion.

    Other than that tough chit, be more responsible if you don't want to end up with a baby in you.
    Strange statement. It's like you don't care at all about the embryo or fetus being "human life" or whatever, you just care about making it a "gotcha" moment for the woman. After all, if the fetus was really an innocent human life, you are killing this life simply because of past actions done by others which it was obviously not responsible for?

    Without free will, the above gets even more muddled, as even with a woman choosing to have sex, the word "choose" here is rather meaningless. I realize the heart of your argument wants to get down to that choice factor- did the woman decide to have sex or not- but again, choice is not well-defined without free will (and I have yet to see a good argument for free will, but there seems to be many arguments and various evidence against it). Whatever the case, why would you then kill an innocent human life (from a pro-life perspective) because of something happening completely outside of its control? Where else in, for example, law, do you see this allowed, where you should be able to just kill an innocent human being because of actions of others? I cant think of any example.
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    one of my buddies told me they should have abortions up to they find out the gender so families can get the genders they want and not get screwed
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    Originally Posted by pantiespending View Post
    I have to say I’m not necessarily until birth but I’m not sure exactly what trimester or weeks in I’m okay with. Certainly abortion is a far better option than being born into a broken home or to dysfunctional family. Though I’d say I would have to do a little research to say which trimester I agree with it up until. Thing is the earth is way overpopulated and we need a way to curb this problem from a multifaceted approach. As Dr William glasser says the most, or one of the most important factors in successfully raising a child is a functional relationship between the mom and dad.
    You really think mom and dad not being a couple anymore is reason to kill a baby?
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    Originally Posted by Tha big kahoona View Post
    No, not up to birth. I don't know anybody who's OK with that
    Women can be crazy especially when they're pregnant. Imagine if a couple breaks up while pregnant and she decides she really hates him and wants to hurt him emotionally.
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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    Childbirth as punishment for mistake, accident or lapse in judgement

    Strong
    Killing a baby because of that mistake, accident, or lapse in judgement.

    Strong
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    Originally Posted by numberguy12 View Post
    Whatever the case, why would you then kill an innocent human life (from a pro-life perspective) because of something happening completely outside of its control? Where else in, for example, law, do you see this allowed, where you should be able to just kill an innocent human being because of actions of others? I cant think of any example.
    Because the 2 instances I mentioned are out of the woman's control as well, she can't control if someone rapes her and she can't control any life-threatening issues that might potentially arise from pregnancy.

    The fetus dies anyways if the mother dies so if there is a life-threatening medical issue then may as well abort the pregnancy.
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    Originally Posted by monty097 View Post
    Killing a baby because of that mistake, accident, or lapse in judgement.

    Strong
    By definition not a baby until born

    Terminating a pregnancy is not “killing a baby”, at most it is removing the potential for a human life to develop, see upthread for discussion points
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    Originally Posted by monty097 View Post
    Because the 2 instances I mentioned are out of the woman's control as well, she can't control if someone rapes her and she can't control any life-threatening issues that might potentially arise from pregnancy.

    The fetus dies anyways if the mother dies so if there is a life-threatening medical issue then may as well abort the pregnancy.
    Ignoring for the moment that you are glossing over the problems that arise without free will existing (without free will, nothing at the end of the day is "in someone's control")....I don't think your response here is answering my post really at all here. You are just repeating your stance that it all comes down to if they made the choice or not, which I already addressed.
    Last edited by numberguy12; 10-23-2019 at 02:17 PM.
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    Originally Posted by numberguy12 View Post
    Ignoring for the moment that you are glossing over the problems that arise without free will existing (without free will, nothing at the end of the day is "in someone's control")....I don't think your response here is answering my post really at all here. You are just repeating your stance that it all comes down to if they made the choice or not, which I already addressed.
    Choice has nothing to do with what I was talking about, nobody chooses to get raped or have life-threatening health issues arise from a pregnancy.
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