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  1. #61
    Registered User scheal's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Thanks for the utterly worthless anecdote but we do actually have data on waiting times:



    The US and UK seem to have pretty comparable waiting times for specialists.
    My father had his knee replaced 1 month after the diagnosis here in California

    In May, for example, 211,434 patients had been on the waiting list for more than six months, up from the 197,067 who were in that position a month before and up by almost half compared to a year earlier, the NHS England data shows.
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  2. #62
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    Originally Posted by scheal View Post
    My father had his knee replaced 1 month after the diagnosis here in California
    Any american praising UHC is either functionally retarded or has failed at life so badly that their Obamacare coverage might actually be worse than the NHS
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  3. #63
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by scheal View Post
    My father had his knee replaced 1 month after the diagnosis here in California
    Which part of "your anecdote is 100% worthless" eludes you?
    "What has destroyed every previous civilization has been the tendency to the unequal distribution of wealth and power" - Henry George

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  4. #64
    Yes, I lift. Peter Ruby's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Thanks for the utterly worthless anecdote but we do actually have data on waiting times:



    The US and UK seem to have pretty comparable waiting times for specialists.
    Are you dense? All we’re saying is that letting the gov run health insurance would do nothing to improve things. The private sector always does it quicker, cheaper and more efficiently.

    Hope that made sense.
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  5. #65
    Devil's advocate GreatOldOne's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    erm the commerce clause is a federal power to regulate commerce between states, not an individual's right against government regulation.
    Supreme court ruled commerce clause wasn't sufficient for the individual mandate
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  6. #66
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    isingnodel, again, why would the US want to follow Europe into the recession abyss by doing what Europe is doing, and that is implementing more and more unsustainable social programs like UHC?

    You're European. Do you like living in your current recession as a direct result in Europe bending over to all of the social programs?
    Helping one person may not change the world, but it could change the world for one person.

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  7. #67
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Peter Ruby View Post
    Are you dense? All we’re saying is that letting the gov run health insurance would do nothing to improve things.
    It would do lots to improve things, including bringing down the cost of care.

    The private sector always does it quicker, cheaper and more efficiently.
    You got a citation on this? I'll wait as long as needed
    "What has destroyed every previous civilization has been the tendency to the unequal distribution of wealth and power" - Henry George

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  8. #68
    Registered User scheal's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Which part of "your anecdote is 100% worthless" eludes you?
    Does socialism and severe TDS normally make you this dumb. Go find a job, even Panda Express offers some kind of medical coverage and stop expecting me to cover you and your drug habits
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  9. #69
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by scheal View Post
    Does socialism and severe TDS normally make you this dumb. Go find a job, even Panda Express offers some kind of medical coverage and stop expecting me to cover you and your drug habits
    If you ever attain a high school equivalent education you might learn that worthless personal anecdotes don't count for data. I'm not expecting anything from someone of your capacity, but never say never.
    "What has destroyed every previous civilization has been the tendency to the unequal distribution of wealth and power" - Henry George

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  10. #70
    Yes, I lift. Peter Ruby's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    It would do lots to improve things, including bringing down the cost of care.



    You got a citation on this? I'll wait as long as needed
    You could’ve just said “dense.” Would have saved us both time.

    Do your own research. I’m not your instructor, nor do I care what you believe at this point.
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  11. #71
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Peter Ruby View Post

    Do your own research. I’m not your instructor, nor do I care what you believe at this point.
    A conservative who can't back up his spoonfed bile with actual data or research of any kind. This is new and exciting.
    "What has destroyed every previous civilization has been the tendency to the unequal distribution of wealth and power" - Henry George

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  12. #72
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    A conservative who can't back up his spoonfed bile with actual data or research of any kind. This is new and exciting.
    A liberal who wants the gov to run everything. A liberal unable to use google. A liberal relying on a conservative to do his work for him.

    Now that’s new and exciting.
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  13. #73
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    It would do lots to improve things, including bringing down the cost of care.
    There have been many discussions in this section from Canadians and Europeans who are not satisfied with their socialized healthcare system. You haven't paid any attention and since you are European, you are trying to mislead anyone here that UHC is a good thing. Not only would the quality of healthcare diminish, the waiting for treatment would be far worse than what Canadians experience. Doctors would not earn enough to maintain their practices, paperwork increases, reimbursements from the government takes way too long and the cost of more poor care would increase and drag on the economy. The overall well-being of Americans will diminish.

    The democrats and their followers preach UHC would be so great, but they completely ignore the logistics and costs of operation, which is what happened with Obamacare, which is a disaster.
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  14. #74
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Peter Ruby View Post
    A liberal who wants the gov to run everything. A liberal unable to use google. A liberal relying on a conservative to do his work for him.

    Now that’s new and exciting.
    When you make any particular claim, you have to present the evidence to back up said claim. This is something anyone with even a rudimentary education would understand, which of course precludes yourself.
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  15. #75
    Registered User scheal's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Peter Ruby View Post
    A liberal relying on a conservative to do his work for him.

    Now that’s new and exciting.
    Pay for his healthcare while you’re at it. Save him looking for a job
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  16. #76
    Yes, I lift. Peter Ruby's Avatar
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    Pentagon is missing $2.3 TRILLION. Efficient!!

    This goober comes in here making the claim that our health insurance would be better handled by the gov.

    Anyone remember what your premiums were before the Affordable Healthcare Ac? I do.

    Originally Posted by scheal View Post
    Pay for his healthcare while you’re at it. Save him looking for a job
    He’s not even an American!!
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  17. #77
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Peter Ruby View Post
    Pentagon is missing $2.3 TRILLION. Efficient!!

    This goober comes in here making the claim that our health insurance would be better handled by the gov.

    Anyone remember what your premiums were before the Affordable Healthcare Ac? I do.



    He’s not even an American!!
    Why is it so hard for you to cite some research to back up your claim? I get that you've never done this in your life, but here I am giving you ample opportunity and you still can't come up with anything?
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  18. #78
    Registered User wickedman's Avatar
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    We should stop eating so much, then I think government healthcare would be affordable.
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  19. #79
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    Always funny to listen to 30-somethings discuss healthcare.
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167564111&p=1372188493&viewfull=1#post1372188493
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    We're already facing a physician shortage, imagine when utilization spikes with a UHC plan.

    6 month waits incomming
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    Originally Posted by z4v4 View Post
    Always funny to listen to 30-somethings discuss healthcare.
    My immediate family has likely utilized US healthcare more than most and I'm 34 years old.

    Wife is a cancer survivor and has had 2 c-secs. She's had more surgeries than most people have in their entire lives. Super thankful for the healthcare we've received and had no delays in care or access to specialists.
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  22. #82
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    My immediate family has likely utilized US healthcare more than most and I'm 34 years old.

    Wife is a cancer survivor and has had 2 c-secs. She's had more surgeries than most people have in their entire lives. Super thankful for the healthcare we've received and had no delays in care or access to specialists.
    Sorry to hear your wife had to battle cancer at a young age.

    How many people do you know with cancer, and/or other illnesses that require extensive care, that are older than 65 and receiving SS disbursements?
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    Originally Posted by z4v4 View Post
    Sorry to hear your wife had to battle cancer at a young age.

    How many people do you know with cancer, and/or other illnesses that require extensive care, that are older than 65 and receiving SS disbursements?
    None, why are you asking specifically?
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    None, why are you asking specifically?
    Because knowing how the current US government subsidized medicine works now for old people (i.e., people no one really cares about) is probably a better barometer for how US government subsidized medicine would work for all its citizens.
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    Originally Posted by BearyManilowe View Post
    Per capita taxes are also higher with generally much lower populations.
    And despite having less people to tend towards, the care manages to somehow be slower.
    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Who said anything about government intervention on insurers? We're talking about a universal healthcare system where the government is the provider.

    Implement a universal healthcare system and some of the main sources of out of control healthcare costs (drug prices, administration costs) come down drastically. Since you're obviously so well informed on this issue, care to explain for us why something like insulin, which costs $30 everywhere else, can cost $300+ in the US?
    The main sources of high healthcare costs don't magically come down simply because the government takes over healthcare.

    Administrative costs is a fair complaint, but the providers still cost vastly more than the insurance companies:



    Simplifying, standardizing, and flat out modernizing billing is a necessary step that can and should be done regardless of any universal healthcare system, because the growing costs would merely transfer over to be further bumbled by government inefficiency on top of everything else.

    Now, the US does spend comparatively more than other nations when it comes to administrative costs, but it also
    Equally unaffected would be the internal inefficiencies, isolated bureaucracies, over-treatment/testing, and other issues purely endemic to the healthcare community before insurance is involved.

    "...However, the U.S. had higher utilization of magnetic resonance imaging and CT scans compared to the others.

    Though utilization in many areas mirrored other nations, administrative costs in the U.S. system dwarfed other countries. These costs, which include planning, regulating and managing health systems and services, accounted for 8% of costs in the U.S. compared to between 1% and 3% in the other countries.

    The U.S. is also spending much more on pharmaceutical costs. The U.S. spending on pharmaceuticals per capita was $1,443 compared to $466-$939 for the others.

    Salaries for physicians and nurses were also higher in the U.S. Generalist physician salaries were $218,173 in the U.S., compared to a range of $86,607 to $154,126 in other countries."[/i]


    On the subject of those medical professionals, [url=[url]https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/jama-admin-costs-vary-by-type-of-visit/517321/]we see a ripping effect of the administrative waste that in turn negatively impacts their abilities to perform[url], so targeting inefficiencies, outdated billing practices, and overall waste will not only reduce healthcare costs, but could arguably improve health care itself.
    "Average processing time and total costs for billing and insurance-related activities was 13 minutes and $20.49 for a primary care visit, 32 minutes and $61.54 for a ED visit, 73 minutes and $124.26 for a general inpatient stay, 75 minutes and $170.40 for an ambulatory surgical procedure and 100 minutes and $215.10 for an inpatient surgical procedure.

    Costs for activities carried out by physicians also varied: A median of three minutes or $6.36 for a primary care visit, three minutes or $10.97 for an ED visit, five minutes or $13.29 for a general inpatient stay, 15 minutes or $51.20 for an ambulatory surgical procedure and 15 minutes or $51.20 for an inpatient surgical procedure.

    Running the numbers another way, the study looked at the percentage of professional revenue that’s associated with billing costs. Those results: Billing costs represented 14.5% of professional revenue for primary care visits, 25.2% for ED visits, 8% for general medicine inpatient stays, 13.4% for ambulatory surgical procedures and 3.1% for inpatient surgical procedures.

    Administrative tasks are widely believed to be adding to healthcare costs and provider stress levels. Reducing administrative burdens isn't just about cutting workload and allowing physicians to focus more on patients’ health; this study showed it also could reduce healthcare costs."[/i]


    Additionally, A 2013 report by the Institute of Medicine assessed that "unnecessary services" contributed to roughly $210 billion in health care spending. As that article notes, pushing for reforms that do not encourage rewarding ineffective treatments and over testing patients for profit motives is but one of many small changes that can be managed far easier without flipping the entire healthcare system table over, and an example of an arguably far greater priority in addressing the true root causes leading to high healthcare costs rather than assuming that by handing the keys over to the government, everything will sort itself out.

    Recently enough, a 2017 HHS report shows a saving of $3.1 billion that after cutting 70 regulatory actions, targeting waste, fraud, and abuse, further displaying that the US healthcare problem is in truth a myriad of problems that cannot be waved away by sweeping, government takeover of the healthcare facet.

    And what a cavalcade of waste there is within the healthcare system:
    Computations yielded the following estimated ranges of total annual cost of waste
    failure of care delivery, $102.4 billion to $165.7 billion;
    failure of care coordination, $27.2 billion to $78.2 billion;
    overtreatment or low-value care, $75.7 billion to $101.2 billion; pricing failure,
    $230.7 billion to $240.5 billion;
    fraud and abuse, $58.5 billion to $83.9 billion;
    and administrative complexity, $265.6 billion.

    The estimated annual savings from measures to eliminate waste were as follows:
    failure of care delivery, $44.4 billion to $93.3 billion;
    of care coordination, $29.6 billion to $38.2 billion; overtreatment or low-value care, $12.8 billion to $28.6 billion
    pricing failure, $81.4 billion to $91.2 billion;
    and fraud and abuse, $22.8 billion to $30.8 billion.

    No studies were identified that focused on interventions targeting administrative complexity. The estimated total annual costs of waste were $760 billion to $935 billion and savings from interventions that address waste were $191 billion to $282 billion.


    Simplifying matters, one merely has to look at the wanting state of the extant government health services to see that, no, the answer is to not approach the matter like a paint sniffing moron who wants to jump right into the deep end of the hottest euro trend with universal healthcare for giggles before assessing the entire situation as it applies to entirely different standards.
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    Originally Posted by nkiritsis13 View Post
    And despite having less people to tend towards, the care manages to somehow be slower.
    The main sources of high healthcare costs don't magically come down simply because the government takes over healthcare.

    Administrative costs is a fair complaint, but the providers still cost vastly more than the insurance companies:



    Simplifying, standardizing, and flat out modernizing billing is a necessary step that can and should be done regardless of any universal healthcare system, because the growing costs would merely transfer over to be further bumbled by government inefficiency on top of everything else.

    Now, the US does spend comparatively more than other nations when it comes to administrative costs, but it also
    Equally unaffected would be the internal inefficiencies, isolated bureaucracies, over-treatment/testing, and other issues purely endemic to the healthcare community before insurance is involved.

    "...However, the U.S. had higher utilization of magnetic resonance imaging and CT scans compared to the others.

    Though utilization in many areas mirrored other nations, administrative costs in the U.S. system dwarfed other countries. These costs, which include planning, regulating and managing health systems and services, accounted for 8% of costs in the U.S. compared to between 1% and 3% in the other countries.

    The U.S. is also spending much more on pharmaceutical costs. The U.S. spending on pharmaceuticals per capita was $1,443 compared to $466-$939 for the others.

    Salaries for physicians and nurses were also higher in the U.S. Generalist physician salaries were $218,173 in the U.S., compared to a range of $86,607 to $154,126 in other countries."[/i]


    On the subject of those medical professionals, [url=[url]https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/jama-admin-costs-vary-by-type-of-visit/517321/]we see a ripping effect of the administrative waste that in turn negatively impacts their abilities to perform[url], so targeting inefficiencies, outdated billing practices, and overall waste will not only reduce healthcare costs, but could arguably improve health care itself.
    "Average processing time and total costs for billing and insurance-related activities was 13 minutes and $20.49 for a primary care visit, 32 minutes and $61.54 for a ED visit, 73 minutes and $124.26 for a general inpatient stay, 75 minutes and $170.40 for an ambulatory surgical procedure and 100 minutes and $215.10 for an inpatient surgical procedure.

    Costs for activities carried out by physicians also varied: A median of three minutes or $6.36 for a primary care visit, three minutes or $10.97 for an ED visit, five minutes or $13.29 for a general inpatient stay, 15 minutes or $51.20 for an ambulatory surgical procedure and 15 minutes or $51.20 for an inpatient surgical procedure.

    Running the numbers another way, the study looked at the percentage of professional revenue that’s associated with billing costs. Those results: Billing costs represented 14.5% of professional revenue for primary care visits, 25.2% for ED visits, 8% for general medicine inpatient stays, 13.4% for ambulatory surgical procedures and 3.1% for inpatient surgical procedures.

    Administrative tasks are widely believed to be adding to healthcare costs and provider stress levels. Reducing administrative burdens isn't just about cutting workload and allowing physicians to focus more on patients’ health; this study showed it also could reduce healthcare costs."[/i]


    Additionally, A 2013 report by the Institute of Medicine assessed that "unnecessary services" contributed to roughly $210 billion in health care spending. As that article notes, pushing for reforms that do not encourage rewarding ineffective treatments and over testing patients for profit motives is but one of many small changes that can be managed far easier without flipping the entire healthcare system table over, and an example of an arguably far greater priority in addressing the true root causes leading to high healthcare costs rather than assuming that by handing the keys over to the government, everything will sort itself out.

    Recently enough, a 2017 HHS report shows a saving of $3.1 billion that after cutting 70 regulatory actions, targeting waste, fraud, and abuse, further displaying that the US healthcare problem is in truth a myriad of problems that cannot be waved away by sweeping, government takeover of the healthcare facet.

    And what a cavalcade of waste there is within the healthcare system:
    Computations yielded the following estimated ranges of total annual cost of waste
    failure of care delivery, $102.4 billion to $165.7 billion;
    failure of care coordination, $27.2 billion to $78.2 billion;
    overtreatment or low-value care, $75.7 billion to $101.2 billion; pricing failure,
    $230.7 billion to $240.5 billion;
    fraud and abuse, $58.5 billion to $83.9 billion;
    and administrative complexity, $265.6 billion.

    The estimated annual savings from measures to eliminate waste were as follows:
    failure of care delivery, $44.4 billion to $93.3 billion;
    of care coordination, $29.6 billion to $38.2 billion; overtreatment or low-value care, $12.8 billion to $28.6 billion
    pricing failure, $81.4 billion to $91.2 billion;
    and fraud and abuse, $22.8 billion to $30.8 billion.

    No studies were identified that focused on interventions targeting administrative complexity. The estimated total annual costs of waste were $760 billion to $935 billion and savings from interventions that address waste were $191 billion to $282 billion.


    Simplifying matters, one merely has to look at the wanting state of the extant government health services to see that, no, the answer is to not approach the matter like a paint sniffing moron who wants to jump right into the deep end of the hottest euro trend with universal healthcare for giggles before assessing the entire situation as it applies to entirely different standards.
    W..w..as all of this supposed to refute something I was saying?

    Administrative costs are, as I said, largely due to the complexities of hospitals having to deal with numerous different insurance providers with numerous different insurance plans, when billing patients.

    High pharmaceutical costs are largely a result of individual hospitals having poor bargaining power against pharmaceutical companies, and so being unable to negotiate drug prices down to reasonable levels seen elsewhere in the world, and regularly getting price gouged and ending up powerless to do anything about it.

    Unnecessary services/overtreatment is a huge problem in America, and is down to healthcare services being driven primarily by profit rather than being driven by clinical need.

    Fraud and abuse is most prevalent in insurance based healthcare systems where patients lie or manipulate things in order to try and circumvent the specific rules/stipulations of their particular insurance plan.

    All of the things you've mentioned there are as significant as they exactly because the US has a private, insurance based, for-profit healthcare system. These things are far less significant in universal healthcare systems. I literally have no idea what you were trying to prove with this barrage of text.
    Last edited by isingmodel; 10-20-2019 at 08:14 PM.
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    When I was diagnosed mid morning, I was able to get a CT scan that afternoon.


    I doubt that could happen in the medical care paradise in the UK.
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    Originally Posted by Chowboy View Post
    When I was diagnosed mid morning, I was able to get a CT scan that afternoon.


    I doubt that could happen in the medical care paradise in the UK.
    No, it certainly wouldn't. I had to wait 6+ months until my surgeon uncle pulled strings to get me an MRI (and then the "treatment" afterwards was talking about my pain with a room of old people)

    Thankfully we live in America not a high tax socialized chithole so my wife's cancer is getting removed days after diagnosis by the best surgeon we have in our PPO network, for no cost, and the prognosis is excellent.

    Contrast that to my aunt in the UK who they didn't even give chemo because she lived in the wrong postcode, and who a 3rd world butcher hacked up with 1950s techniques so her last months alive were spent unable to move.
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    Originally Posted by nkiritsis13 View Post
    And despite having less people to tend towards, the care manages to somehow be slower.
    The main sources of high healthcare costs don't magically come down simply because the government takes over healthcare.

    Administrative costs is a fair complaint, but the providers still cost vastly more than the insurance companies:



    Simplifying, standardizing, and flat out modernizing billing is a necessary step that can and should be done regardless of any universal healthcare system, because the growing costs would merely transfer over to be further bumbled by government inefficiency on top of everything else.

    Now, the US does spend comparatively more than other nations when it comes to administrative costs, but it also
    Equally unaffected would be the internal inefficiencies, isolated bureaucracies, over-treatment/testing, and other issues purely endemic to the healthcare community before insurance is involved.

    "...However, the U.S. had higher utilization of magnetic resonance imaging and CT scans compared to the others.

    Though utilization in many areas mirrored other nations, administrative costs in the U.S. system dwarfed other countries. These costs, which include planning, regulating and managing health systems and services, accounted for 8% of costs in the U.S. compared to between 1% and 3% in the other countries.

    The U.S. is also spending much more on pharmaceutical costs. The U.S. spending on pharmaceuticals per capita was $1,443 compared to $466-$939 for the others.

    Salaries for physicians and nurses were also higher in the U.S. Generalist physician salaries were $218,173 in the U.S., compared to a range of $86,607 to $154,126 in other countries."[/i]


    On the subject of those medical professionals, [url=[url]https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/jama-admin-costs-vary-by-type-of-visit/517321/]we see a ripping effect of the administrative waste that in turn negatively impacts their abilities to perform[url], so targeting inefficiencies, outdated billing practices, and overall waste will not only reduce healthcare costs, but could arguably improve health care itself.
    "Average processing time and total costs for billing and insurance-related activities was 13 minutes and $20.49 for a primary care visit, 32 minutes and $61.54 for a ED visit, 73 minutes and $124.26 for a general inpatient stay, 75 minutes and $170.40 for an ambulatory surgical procedure and 100 minutes and $215.10 for an inpatient surgical procedure.

    Costs for activities carried out by physicians also varied: A median of three minutes or $6.36 for a primary care visit, three minutes or $10.97 for an ED visit, five minutes or $13.29 for a general inpatient stay, 15 minutes or $51.20 for an ambulatory surgical procedure and 15 minutes or $51.20 for an inpatient surgical procedure.

    Running the numbers another way, the study looked at the percentage of professional revenue that’s associated with billing costs. Those results: Billing costs represented 14.5% of professional revenue for primary care visits, 25.2% for ED visits, 8% for general medicine inpatient stays, 13.4% for ambulatory surgical procedures and 3.1% for inpatient surgical procedures.

    Administrative tasks are widely believed to be adding to healthcare costs and provider stress levels. Reducing administrative burdens isn't just about cutting workload and allowing physicians to focus more on patients’ health; this study showed it also could reduce healthcare costs."[/i]


    Additionally, A 2013 report by the Institute of Medicine assessed that "unnecessary services" contributed to roughly $210 billion in health care spending. As that article notes, pushing for reforms that do not encourage rewarding ineffective treatments and over testing patients for profit motives is but one of many small changes that can be managed far easier without flipping the entire healthcare system table over, and an example of an arguably far greater priority in addressing the true root causes leading to high healthcare costs rather than assuming that by handing the keys over to the government, everything will sort itself out.

    Recently enough, a 2017 HHS report shows a saving of $3.1 billion that after cutting 70 regulatory actions, targeting waste, fraud, and abuse, further displaying that the US healthcare problem is in truth a myriad of problems that cannot be waved away by sweeping, government takeover of the healthcare facet.

    And what a cavalcade of waste there is within the healthcare system:
    Computations yielded the following estimated ranges of total annual cost of waste
    failure of care delivery, $102.4 billion to $165.7 billion;
    failure of care coordination, $27.2 billion to $78.2 billion;
    overtreatment or low-value care, $75.7 billion to $101.2 billion; pricing failure,
    $230.7 billion to $240.5 billion;
    fraud and abuse, $58.5 billion to $83.9 billion;
    and administrative complexity, $265.6 billion.

    The estimated annual savings from measures to eliminate waste were as follows:
    failure of care delivery, $44.4 billion to $93.3 billion;
    of care coordination, $29.6 billion to $38.2 billion; overtreatment or low-value care, $12.8 billion to $28.6 billion
    pricing failure, $81.4 billion to $91.2 billion;
    and fraud and abuse, $22.8 billion to $30.8 billion.

    No studies were identified that focused on interventions targeting administrative complexity. The estimated total annual costs of waste were $760 billion to $935 billion and savings from interventions that address waste were $191 billion to $282 billion.


    Simplifying matters, one merely has to look at the wanting state of the extant government health services to see that, no, the answer is to not approach the matter like a paint sniffing moron who wants to jump right into the deep end of the hottest euro trend with universal healthcare for giggles before assessing the entire situation as it applies to entirely different standards.
    Excellent post and it highlights the lack of transparency that patients have when being treated. Furthermore, the industry uses this to set itself up as a self licking ice cream cone. I don't know if using gov't ran insurance is going to solve that. In fact, if we look at the defense industry, it's going to make it worse. Administration has bloated every professional field it can. Academia is suffering from the same effects as there are 4+ administrators for each teacher. Business administrators in defense have setup an ouroboros between decreasing salaries of experts and increasing the magnitudes of bids. Quite literally the only people "winning" are the middle men who have propped up their interface as a point of exaltation despite providing neither direction nor design.

    These businesses don't exist to provide a service or product. They exist to grow. That's the flip side of the bureaucracy, it's a poison to both socialists and capitalists alike so no one will address the elephant in the room. In reality, I wish more of healthcare system was non-profit, and establishing the boundaries of what should be ethically profitable relies heavily on the aforementioned transparency. Honestly, doctors and staff deserve to get paid more and it leads me to believe the shortage of doctors is only because they're not being paid well enough despite there being plenty of profit to pay them. Effectively, this just drives an artificial demand and is a clear example of how the current state of regulation has failed to predict this outcome. Administrators can cut salaries and reap the benefits of increased profit margins while being able to point at increased demand. It's a cheap trick being employed in the tech industry to excuse the replacement of experienced engineers with H1B visa immigrants who just happen to work for a third the amount. Now we have 737maxes falling out of the sky.

    What we're starting to see with large corporations are large swaths of employees who seemingly only exist to employ themselves or the next guy. It's eerily like the statist establishments of cold war russia. I don't view Soviet Russia as a failure of communism. I view it for what it is, a failure to resolve capitalism with socialism. We're facing that in a different way today, but we are not above it. Bureaucracy ended the soviet union.
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    Originally Posted by Halfway View Post
    No, it certainly wouldn't. I had to wait 6+ months until my surgeon uncle pulled strings to get me an MRI (and then the "treatment" afterwards was talking about my pain with a room of old people)

    Thankfully we live in America not a high tax socialized chithole so my wife's cancer is getting removed days after diagnosis by the best surgeon we have in our PPO network, for no cost, and the prognosis is excellent.

    Contrast that to my aunt in the UK who they didn't even give chemo because she lived in the wrong postcode, and who a 3rd world butcher hacked up with 1950s techniques so her last months alive were spent unable to move.

    Yeah, that is what I thought. Within three weeks of my diagnosis, I had my port installed and was receiving vast quantities of very expensive chemicals; one bag was about $50K. While it hasn't been free, my payout has been minimal compared to the actual cost. As a result, I'm still 6 ft above ground 8 months later after being given 2 to 4 months.


    Sorry to hear about your wife and I hope she makes a full recovery and achieves NED.
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