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    AG Barr blasts 'militant secularists' in speech on religious freedom

    I'm not much of a religious person but I agree with Barr's comments, traditional values provided a foundation for moral and ethical guidance. While there is importance and a need for progressivism, and I do support progressive policies, there needs to be discipline because there is no road map for people's lives, no qualitative role models, nothing to guide our actions. There is inherent danger in being open and accepting of everyone and everything because nothing is providing a soft regulation for the path forward (for the sake of stability). So in light of this, I support these kind of social initiatives.

    AG Barr blasts 'militant secularists' in speech on religious freedom
    Attorney General William Barr blasted "militant secularists" and their attacks on Judeo-Christian values in a blistering speech at Notre Dame Friday, saying "religion has been under increasing attack" over the past five decades.

    Barr, a devout Catholic, told students and faculty at the university's law school that "the problem is not that religion is being forced on others, the problem is that irreligion is being forced — secular values are being forced on people of faith."

    “Among the militant secularists are many so-called progressives,” he said. “But where is the progress? We are told we are living in a post-Christian era, but what has replaced the Judeo-Christian moral system? What is it that can fill the spiritual void in the hearts of the individual person? And what is the system of values that can sustain human social life?”

    Barr contends that many of society's ills are caused because of the breakdown of religion in society.

    "This is not decay," he said. "This is organized destruction. Secular forces and their allies have marshaled all the forces of mass communication, popular culture, the entertainment industry, and academia, in an unremitting assault on religion and traditional values."

    Barr said "ground zero" for the attacks is the schools, pointing to New Jersey's passage of a law requiring public schools to adopt LGBT curriculum.
    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ag-...ligious-freeom
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    I think he is wrong.

    Progressives use secularism, just like they use socialism, environmentalism, etc...to assert moral authority so that end justifies their means.
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    all they want to do is shift the dogma

    everything is about power with these lunatics
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    The country was founded on the principle of separation of church and state. It's one of the main criticisms of Shariah Law in Western society. I understand the desire for religious people to feel protected to practice their religion freely but arguments from one side of the issue don't admit any of the valid arguments from the other side. For example the religious fundamentalists want creationism taught in school instead of evolutionary theory, they want to allow grown men to marry children. They too, want to force their religion into the government when it suits them.

    Like most things in politics you have people from both extremes yelling to win when the actual solution lies somewhere in the middle. I agree that 'militant secularism' can and often is a bad thing. The nuclear family structure doesn't need to be discouraged just because we're recognizing the rights of gay people and trannies.
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    Originally Posted by Tamorlane View Post
    For example the religious fundamentalists want creationism taught in school instead of evolutionary theory, they want to allow grown men to marry children. They too, want to force their religion into the government when it suits them.
    And we don't let them

    however far-left extremists are being allowed to run wild and teach kids whatever they want
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    That separation was so that the government could not establish an official religion with memories of the Roman Catholic Church in their minds.

    The foundation of the United States is built upon Christian values.
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    The foundation of the United States is built upon Christian values.
    “As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality.”

    ― George Washington
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    Originally Posted by Tamorlane View Post
    The country was founded on the principle of separation of church and state. It's one of the main criticisms of Shariah Law in Western society. I understand the desire for religious people to feel protected to practice their religion freely but arguments from one side of the issue don't admit any of the valid arguments from the other side. For example the religious fundamentalists want creationism taught in school instead of evolutionary theory, they want to allow grown men to marry children. They too, want to force their religion into the government when it suits them.

    Like most things in politics you have people from both extremes yelling to win when the actual solution lies somewhere in the middle. I agree that 'militant secularism' can and often is a bad thing. The nuclear family structure doesn't need to be discouraged just because we're recognizing the rights of gay people and trannies.
    To look at it one way, Christian values provided a sense of virtue, or at least, a road map for virtue (personal mileage may vary).

    But there isn't anything, non-religion based, embracing virtuous principles. Our media doesn't do it, movie/TV entertainment can portray general right and wrong but doesn't embrace the underlying characteristics that help make that a realization. Our phones don't do it, our parents don't do it, and our schools don't do it. So where does it come from then?

    So while, as a non-religious person, I understand the importance of secularism, I think the point we're at right now where we're heavily lacking in the moral guidance department and realize the role religion played in that regard.

    As corny as it sounds, having a class with a curriculum surrounding Human Interaction that includes manners, exercising patience, respect for one another, not acting out, etc would go a long way in this regard.
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    Originally Posted by XterraRob View Post
    To look at it one way, Christian values provided a sense of virtue, or at least, a road map for virtue (personal mileage may vary).

    But there isn't anything, non-religion based, embracing virtuous principles. Our media doesn't do it, movie/TV entertainment can portray general right and wrong but doesn't embrace the underlying characteristics that help make that a realization. Our phones don't do it, our parents don't do it, and our schools don't do it. So where does it come from then?

    So while, as a non-religious person, I understand the importance of secularism, I think the point we're at right now where we're heavily lacking in the moral guidance department and realize the role religion played in that regard.

    As corny as it sounds, having a class with a curriculum surrounding Human Interaction that includes manners, exercising patience, respect for one another, not acting out, etc would go a long way in this regard.
    I agree with everything you said, except I would say that virtue and morality could come about from an increased tolerance of others. Slavery ended, segregation ended, women are allowed to vote, gay people are allowed to get married, etc. The media, entertainment and technology industries are all profit-driven. If you want a government or society that looks out for it's people and general morality there needs to be a fundamental change. Corporate media sows division because it keeps the masses weak and is good for ratings and profits.

    I think tolerating minorities like transgender people doesn't mean we need to erode the fundamental parts of society. Allowing gay marriage doesn't mean the nuclear family doesn't need to be supported or encouraged. But less institutions exist to promote the traditional family (other than the Church and conservative right) while the entire globalist movement supports the rights of all minorities and equality. You can't expect these special interest groups to be anything but militant.

    You're right about the class, it could be ethics or something, you don't need religion or supernatural beliefs to teach people about manners, respect and other virtues.
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    Originally Posted by Tamorlane View Post
    You're right about the class, it could be ethics or something, you don't need religion or supernatural beliefs to teach people about manners, respect and other virtues.
    Yes, it's just there isn't any reinforcement at home, which was the role religion played. School curriculum's about as far as you can go without using the power of the media to help influence better behavior.
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    Originally Posted by XterraRob View Post
    To look at it one way, Christian values provided a sense of virtue, or at least, a road map for virtue (personal mileage may vary).

    But there isn't anything, non-religion based, embracing virtuous principles. Our media doesn't do it, movie/TV entertainment can portray general right and wrong but doesn't embrace the underlying characteristics that help make that a realization. Our phones don't do it, our parents don't do it, and our schools don't do it. So where does it come from then?

    So while, as a non-religious person, I understand the importance of secularism, I think the point we're at right now where we're heavily lacking in the moral guidance department and realize the role religion played in that regard.

    As corny as it sounds, having a class with a curriculum surrounding Human Interaction that includes manners, exercising patience, respect for one another, not acting out, etc would go a long way in this regard.
    And is it okay if Trump's administration decides what this class teaches? What about a full-blown commie administration?

    I hope you can see why a government teaching ethics is not the best idea

    our morals need to come from a cultural agreement outside of a coercive body like the govt

    if we decide on something as a culture, the govt should protect that decision, not make it for us

    that is the REAL separation of church and state
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    Originally Posted by cashinout View Post
    And is it okay if Trump's administration decides what this class teaches? What about a full-blown commie administration?

    I hope you can see why a government teaching ethics is not the best idea

    our morals need to come from a cultural agreement outside of a coercive body like the govt

    if we decide on something as a culture, the govt should protect that decision, not make it for us

    that is the REAL separation of church and state
    You're completely right, that's the fine line to walk. We don't want to tell people how to live their lives or have a social credit system like China has. We already have a soft system with how the media influences people to act towards certain individuals (Anti-Trump supporters vs. Trump supporters).

    I don't think we'll ever decide on something as a culture entirely, it's just constantly a balancing act or experiment for what provides stability for the future. We gain some things and lose some things as time goes on, for better and for worse.
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    That separation was so that the government could not establish an official religion with memories of the Roman Catholic Church in their minds.

    The foundation of the United States is built upon Christian values.
    I mean most people at the time were Christians but there is no reference to Christianity in the founding documents and many of the founding fathers were deists, some explicitly ridiculed religion.
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    Originally Posted by XterraRob View Post
    You're completely right, that's the fine line to walk. We don't want to tell people how to live their lives or have a social credit system like China has. We already have a soft system with how the media influences people to act towards certain individuals (Anti-Trump supporters vs. Trump supporters).

    I don't think we'll ever decide on something as a culture entirely, it's just constantly a balancing act or experiment for what provides stability for the future. We gain some things and lose some things as time goes on, for better and for worse.
    of course, we won't

    I guess the question becomes, have we, as a WHOLE species, become intelligent enough to completely remove the supernatural axiom of god and what it represents and depend on non-supernatural axioms for moral arbitration and a shield against nihilism

    I say not yet, some people say yes
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    He needs to go on a diet.
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    Originally Posted by cashinout View Post
    of course, we won't

    I guess the question becomes, have we, as a WHOLE species, become intelligent enough to completely remove the supernatural axiom of god and what it represents and depend on non-supernatural axioms for moral arbitration

    I say not yet, some people say yes
    We actually have been for a long time. If our moral epistemology was still based on theism then very few of the social changes we have seen since the Enlightenment period would have taken place.

    In fact even religious people don't truly base their moral behaviour on religion. They choose the parts of religious scripture they wish to follow and discard that which they don't wish to follow. That in itself tells you that their moral actions are influenced by something outside of the texts, which happens to fit in with some parts of it but contradicts or discards other parts.
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    We actually have been for a long time. If our moral epistemology was still based on theism then very few of the social changes we have seen since the Enlightenment period would have taken place.

    In fact even religious people don't truly base their moral behaviour on religion. They choose the parts of religious scripture they wish to follow and discard that which they don't wish to follow. That in itself tells you that their moral actions are influenced by something outside of the texts, which happens to fit in with some parts of it but contradicts or discards other parts.
    I agree, but are we progressing morally because of or in spite of Abrahamic religion?

    is it a compounding effect that makes us better every generation since these texts were written?

    and that only applies to moral behavior and tolerance

    IMO, I think religion is still a very powerful force in terms of spirituality and mental health

    sure most people will still be good and act good if we removed their religion but what happens to their point of view on life? what reason do they come up with for existing? What comforts them when a loved one is suffering or passes? What calms existential dread?

    You can say people will find their own reasons, but I'd argue that's much easier said than done and is a contributing factor in today's unhappy world. Everyone seems to be anxious or depressed or abusing something or chasing wealth or other vain things

    it's a complex issue imo and merely brushing it aside as "ha you believe in fairy tales" is not a good strategy going forward
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    Originally Posted by cashinout View Post
    I agree, but are we progressing morally because of or in spite of Abrahamic religion?

    is it a compounding effect that makes us better every generation since these texts were written?

    and that only applies to moral behavior and tolerance

    IMO, I think religion is still a very powerful force in terms of spirituality and mental health

    sure most people will still be good and act good if we removed their religion but what happens to their point of view on life? what reason do they come up with for existing? What comforts them when a loved one is suffering or passes? What calms existential dread?

    You can say people will find their own reasons, but I'd argue that's much easier said than done and is a contributing factor in today's unhappy world. Everyone seems to be anxious or depressed or abusing something or chasing wealth or other vain things

    it's a complex issue imo and merely brushing it aside as "ha you believe in fairy tales" is not a good strategy going forward
    In spite of. Many of the social changes we've seen explicitly contradict Abrahamic religions, Islam the most of all obviously but Christianity/Judaism too.

    As Hitchens used to say, good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things, but in order to make a good person do bad things, you need religion - and I think that still rings as true as ever.
    "What has destroyed every previous civilization has been the tendency to the unequal distribution of wealth and power" - Henry George

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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    In spite of. Many of the social changes we've seen explicitly contradict Abrahamic religions, Islam the most of all obviously but Christianity/Judaism too.

    As Hitchens used to say, good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things, but in order to make a good person do bad things, you need religion - and I think that still rings as true as ever.
    but some social injustices were also contradicted by parts of the religions

    Jesus says love your neighbor as yourself and do unto others as you would have them do unto you

    that statement alone contradicts slavery, ban on gays, oppressing women, etc

    and the above were perpetrated largely and supported by governments
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    Originally Posted by cashinout View Post
    but some social injustices were also contradicted by parts of the religions

    Jesus says love your neighbor as yourself and do unto others as you would have them do unto you

    that statement alone contradicts slavery, ban on gays, oppressing women, etc

    and the above were perpetrated largely and supported by governments
    If you ask a christian about say the banning of homosexuality they'll tell you that doing so is saving homosexuals from a life of sin and subsequently a tormented afterlife, so it doesn't really contradict what jesus said. You aren't wrong that there is a lot of contradictory **** in religion, but if you look at what the predominant mainstream sects, religious authorities and communities of the major religions were doing and following, then you have to conclude that almost all of the progress we've made in recent years was completely in spite of religion.

    And yes, they were supported by governments but in most countries there wasn't any real delineation between church and state at all for most of their histories. The state was basically enforcing the morality of the church.
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    Originally Posted by Tamorlane View Post
    “As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality.”

    ― George Washington
    You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention.

    - George Washington





    June 8, 1783, George Washington's farewell letter to the United States Army :


    I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection,
    that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation.



    Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation

    Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation

    Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation

    Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation

    Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation

    Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation

    Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation

    Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation



    Depression running rampant in our society confirms his words.

    http://www.loc.gov/teachers/classroo.../circular.html
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    Liberals don't understand that freedom of religion was made because they remembered what happened in England with the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church.

    They wanted Christians to be free to practice their religion as they chose.


    It was never intended to be used to create a nation of godless degenerates practicing abortions.
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    If you ask a christian about say the banning of homosexuality they'll tell you that doing so is saving homosexuals from a life of sin and subsequently a tormented afterlife, so it doesn't really contradict what jesus said. You aren't wrong that there is a lot of contradictory **** in religion, but if you look at what the predominant mainstream sects, religious authorities and communities of the major religions were doing and following, then you have to conclude that almost all of the progress we've made in recent years was completely in spite of religion.

    And yes, they were supported by governments but in most countries there wasn't any real delineation between church and state at all for most of their histories. The state was basically enforcing the morality of the church.
    If you ask SOME christians

    can't make generalizations while speaking on morality

    but my point is, up until recently the majority of the people followed some religion

    that includes the people who fought to end slavery, and who fought for equal rights for all and who fought for tons of social issues

    so it's not as simple as:

    religious people are against progress and atheists are the ones moving us forward
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    Originally Posted by cashinout View Post
    If you ask SOME christians

    can't make generalizations while speaking on morality

    but my point is, up until recently the majority of the people followed some religion

    that includes the people who fought to end slavery, and who fought for equal rights for all and who fought for tons of social issues

    so it's not as simple as:

    religious people are against progress and atheists are the ones moving us forward
    But like I said originally, in many cases those religious people are simply selectively choosing to ignore the parts of their scripture which may contradict the way society is moving, in order to be on the side of progress. They may continue to identify as religious but they are, practically by definition, getting their moral intuitions from somewhere else, and when the scripture no longer lines up with their intuitions, they discard that portion.

    Which goes back to my whole point - we aren't really basing our moral epistemology on theism at all. Certainly not anymore. The main argument you can make here is to say that our very rudimentary moral intuitions (don't kill and rape innocent people etc) line up with most mainstream religious teaching. But again, you'd be very hard pressed to try and prove that actually has foundation in religion itself and is not simply a strong sociobiological phenomenon in healthy, non sociopathic/psychopathic people.
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    And so yeah I never said religious people are all against progress while all atheists are for progress, that would definitely be an absurd edgelord thing to say. But I think it's certainly fair to say that religion is not on the side of progress.
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