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  1. #31
    Focus on yourself kimm4's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by backinthegymbro View Post
    i trained my lifting partner who went from 200 lbs no muscles and overweight to 160 and gained a good amount of lean muscle as well.
    Overweight men and women are not walking around with no muscle on their frames. The muscle foundation varies but it's there covered under a good layer of fat. It's a matter of fat loss, preserving the muscle you carry now and sprinkle in a bit of newbie gains.

    OP is at the lower end of the scale for his height and lacking in muscle and that's the difference. He has no choice but to build the foundation first and save the cutting for the future.
    Last edited by kimm4; 10-11-2019 at 01:26 PM.
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  2. #32
    Registered User hardyboysare's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 11numerology View Post
    Hm, well your comment earlier about me providing bro-science... I think you're the bro without science, because there's a ton of research which basically shows your ignorance on the subject
    Your sources really don't answer the point you are making.....


    5 sources:
    1. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8876348 - The studying is explaining how weight training doesn't stop RMR from decreasing it states nothing to do your body sensing the lack of food. Everyone knows that when eat in a deficit your body gets lazier therefore you NEAT drops as well as some hormonal changes

    The decline in absolute RMR for both groups is only partially explained by the loss of FFM; it still significantly declined when RMR was analyzed using FFM as the covariate, but there was no significant difference between groups. The decreases in absolute RMR observed for both groups in this study concur with those reported by others (3,25) who used a similar energy intake. The short-term lowering of RMR observed in the present study may also be due to a VLKD-induced reduction in insulin output and sympathetic activity (25).
    2. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26399868 - Is not carb refeeds its increase in general calories through a mixed diet not just carbs so nothing to do with carb cycling and certainly nothing to do with having refeeds for 2 days.

    The remaining 50% of energy was provided as high–glycemic index and low–glycemic index mixed meals and snacks
    - extra calories not extra carbs

    subsequent 2 wk of refeeding (at +50% of energy requirements; 4059 ± 452 kcal/d)
    - This is accepted as a point in which hormonal replenishment would occur not after two days as you have stated.

    3. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3812338 - This study concludes the loss of lean body mass causes a drop in RMR not the lack of food

    In this study there was only a significant correlation between RMR and LBM (r =0.58) before weight loss.
    4. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19198647 - This again states that individuals get lazier and a drop of hormonal occurs then balances out once your body is adapted to the caloric level. Never does it say metabolism stops in a caloric deficit.

    As an alternative hypothesis it would be reasonable to assume two metabolic phases occur in response to CR; an ‘adaptive phase’ when energy expenditure is adjusting to compensate for the reduced availability of energy sources, followed by a ‘maintenance phase’when energy balance has been re-established and the metabolic andbehavioral compensations are therefore complete [37]
    5. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2723638/ - Unable to comment as I can't access but I serious doubt its beyond the bodies reduction of non-conscious activity such as blinking and twitching.

    Your body will never get to a point where calories will cause your metabolism to stop. Adjustments in non-conscious activities, weight loss, muscle loss and some hormonal changes will cause adjustments in BMR but this will be offset by dropping calories more.
    Last edited by hardyboysare; 10-12-2019 at 08:35 AM.
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  3. #33
    Never accept defeat! backinthegymbro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kimm4 View Post
    Overweight men and women are not walking around with no muscle on their frames. The muscle foundation varies but it's there covered under a good layer of fat. It's a matter of fat loss, preserving the muscle you carry now and sprinkle in a bit of newbie gains.
    What makes you think an obese person who never lifts carries a lot of muscle? Of course everyone has muscle underneath fat since it's basic human anatomy, but being overweight really means nothing.

    Originally Posted by kimm4 View Post

    OP is at the lower end of the scale for his height and lacking in muscle and that's the difference. He has no choice but to build the foundation first and save the cutting for the future.
    He actually has plenty of choice as mentioned earlier in this thread. He can bulk now and cut later. Or cut now and lean bulk after. It just depends what his own preference is. Carry his current stomach fat for a year or get rid of it now.
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  4. #34
    Focus on yourself kimm4's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by backinthegymbro View Post
    What makes you think an obese person who never lifts carries a lot of muscle? Of course everyone has muscle underneath fat since it's basic human anatomy, but being overweight really means nothing.

    He actually has plenty of choice as mentioned earlier in this thread. He can bulk now and cut later. Or cut now and lean bulk after. It just depends what his own preference is. Carry his current stomach fat for a year or get rid of it now.
    Where did I say obese people carry a lot of muscle? I said they have a muscle foundation to work with and yes it does make a difference when they lose fat and lift weights compared to a person who's low in weight with little foundation.

    I don't agree, he's already low in weight. What are you going to suggest cut him down to a skeleton?
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  5. #35
    Registered User hardyboysare's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by backinthegymbro View Post
    What makes you think an obese person who never lifts carries a lot of muscle? Of course everyone has muscle underneath fat since it's basic human anatomy, but being overweight really means nothing.
    They do have more muscle obese people (well if they are actually mobile anyway):-

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4889641/

    The consensus is that obese individuals, regardless of age, have a greater absolute maximum muscle strength compared to non-obese persons, suggesting that increased adiposity acts as a chronic overload stimulus on the antigravity muscles (e.g., quadriceps and calf), thus increasing muscle size and strength.
    More weight requires more muscle to move especially in the legs so they are 'lifting' its just body fat instead of weights. You wont be seeing a skinny 120lb guy moving around extra 140lbs no trouble where a 260lb man doesn't really struggle too bad beyond their own fitness level.

    Of course when you compare them relatively to normal body weight individuals they are generally weaker but at their current state techincaly they are stronger and have more lean body mass.
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  6. #36
    Never accept defeat! backinthegymbro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kimm4 View Post
    Where did I say obese people carry a lot of muscle? I said they have a muscle foundation to work with and yes it does make a difference when they lose fat and lift weights compared to a person who's low in weight with little foundation.
    I mean you basically commented saying fat people have muscle...
    Every single human has muscle including babies. That's like commenting that every living human has organs, or skin...
    So it seemed pretty pointless to point that out imo since it's common knowledge, unless you meant that overweight people carry more muscle / have more muscle foundation than non overweight people when they are both untrained. Hence my assumption.
    Last edited by backinthegymbro; 10-12-2019 at 03:37 AM.
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