***Official Football (Soccer) Thread: All leagues and competitions Part 39***

[TokenV]

0-0

extra time

1-0 Fulham last minute of first ET

fuk

[TokenV]

1-0 Fulham last minute of first ET

fuk

2-0

it's over

Fulham to Premier League

cot damn

[TokenV]

2-0

it's over

Fulham to Premier League

cot damn

2-1 full time

[MatthewChav]

2-1 full time

They was'nt that far out (Brentford) but far enough!!!

As an old adage I know though .... itgoes "if I had been boiling an Egg that long ... I'd be knackerd" and after 73 years trying to gottan back to the top tier, wel brentford must be!!

[MatthewChav]

I was thinking Fulham but then I saw the bookies got Brentford as the favorites, interedersting

As reflected by the Goal difference and 81 points each - that is enough proof in the pudding to say that even the Bookies did'nt really know who to "label" as the favourites imho I think to be fair Token mate!!

[LukeS1]

Last time I give u ne Reps Luke-y mate Lol

Just banter mate!

[LukeS1]

Cristiano had 18 goals from open play out of 285 shots, 1 free kick, and 12 penalties. The penalties are hiding the fact that this is quite literally one of his worst ever seasons. Juve was always going to win this league, with or without Ronaldo, if they didn't purchase him, i'm sure they would have found someone else to bang in penalties and tap ins...

As an example... Lukaku (who's not one of the best) scored the same amount of open play goals as ronaldo this year yet he only took 93 shots.

Quagliarella is another example.. He was 36 years old last year and playing on a terrible team, yet he scored 26 goals, 18 of which were from open play. He only took 140 shots, while it took Ronaldo 285 shots to score the same amount of open play goals.

The reason why Juve isn't playing well is because the Juve Board hasn't bought into Sarri's demands, and frankly I'm not convinced with Sarri's quality anyways. This team is going the way of Barcelona, indecisive board who's not sure what to do next.

Also.. Dybala should be on that list.

This list is based on who was statistically the best, going into detail of passing, dribbling, defending etc. CR7 is so far ahead of the rest of Juve in this metric that its hard to prove he was not carrying them, even though the rating is not perfect

[AJR123456]

This list is based on who was statistically the best, going into detail of passing, dribbling, defending etc. CR7 is so far ahead of the rest of Juve in this metric that its hard to prove he was not carrying them, even though the rating is not perfect

"so far ahead of the rest of Juve"

Here is his statistical rank in Juve:

Passing %: 13th

Dribbling: 3rd

Possession loss from dribbles: 1st.

Defending: Last

Goals: 1st

Assists: 4th

Aerials won: 6th

Bad controls per game: 1st

Key passes: 3rd


I'm curious LukeS1... Do you watch juve games?

[LukeS1]

Whoscored match ratings are a well known and respected metric, it takes into account the players overall contribution relative to their position, not just cherry picked stats like you used. In total in takes into account over 200 statistics.

If you want to argue against it, look it how the rating works and explain why you don't think its accurate, but its not me saying this its the data

[AJR123456]

Whoscored match ratings are a well known and respected metric, it takes into account the players overall contribution relative to their position, not just cherry picked stats like you used. In total in takes into account over 200 statistics.

If you want to argue against it, look it how the rating works and explain why you don't think its accurate, but its not me saying this its the data

That's a great point, and I completely agree with you, you're right.

So you're saying you trust Whoscored match rating as an accurate, credible and reliable source. You pointed out that there are over 200 factors that determine who is "the best" player on Juventus, and you used this to justify your decision of who was the best this season.

You trust this rating enough to Rank Ronaldo higher than other player DESPITE key statistics.

Fair

So is it also fair to say that since Lionel Messi has been ranked higher than Ronaldo every year since 2008 that he is the better player?

Even in the UCL Ronaldo has only ranked higher than Messi in 4 campaigns of the last 12, Messi also holds the highest rating in UCL final history, the only player to have a 10/10. As well as 4 UCL campaigns with an average rating over 9.0 while Ronaldo's best ever campaign was an 8.82.

Here are the overall number below:


2009-2010

Ronaldo 8.54 Messi 8.67

2010-2011

Ronaldo 8.35 Messi 8.76

2011-2012

Ronaldo 8.28 Messi 8.88

2012-2013

Ronaldo 8.15 Messi 8.83

2013-2014

Ronaldo 8.27 Messi 8.34

2014-2015

Ronaldo 8.48 Messi 8.84

2015-2016

Ronaldo 7.99 Messi 8.46

2016-2017

Ronaldo 7.61 Messi 8.47

2017-2018

Ronaldo 7.94 Messi 8.68

2018-2019

Ronaldo 7.68 Messi 8.48

2019 - 2020

Ronaldo 7.82 Messi 8.71


Regarding UCL

Ronaldo's best ever campaign rating was 8.82

Messi has 5 campaigns rated higher than Ronaldo's best including 4 campaigns over 9 average rating.

So LukeS1

Since you used this logic to rank Ronaldo above his current team mates, does the same logic apply to rank Messi above Ronaldo?

To quote you once more:

Whoscored match ratings are a well known and respected metric,

If you want to argue against it, look it how the rating works and explain why you don't think its accurate, but its not me saying this its the data

[LukeS1]

I agree, Messi looks better over the 60 games in the season so will come ahead in this stat.

What sets CR7 apart is performing in the biggest games, ie hes like Tom Brady compared to Peyton Manning, or MJ compared to LeBron. Maybe less overall efficiency stats in regular season or league games, but comes up bigger in big moments.

[AJR123456]

I agree, Messi looks better over the 60 games in the season so will come ahead in this stat.

What sets CR7 apart is performing in the biggest games, ie hes like Tom Brady compared to Peyton Manning, or MJ compared to LeBron. Maybe less overall efficiency stats in regular season or league games, but comes up bigger in big moments.

Maybe, lets look at the stats.

We'll focus on UCL Finals alone because those are widely considered to be the biggest game in club competition and Messi has a much greater contribution in finals than Ronaldo, if you includes copa del ray, club world cup, spanish supercup etc

I'll list it as Messi and ronaldo rating alone if they are MOTM, if they are not, ill list the match rating in order of high to low for their team in that game.


Messi participated in 3 UCL Finals

2009 UCL final

Messi - MOTM - Whoscored rating - 10/10

2011 UCL final

Messi - MOTM - whoscored rating - 10/10

2015 UCL final

Messi - MOTM - whoscored rating - 8.2/10

Summary:

Messi average UCL final rating - 9.4/10

MOTM 3/3

Ronaldo participated in 5 UCL final

UCL Final 2008 - pre-whoscored analysis

MOTM - Edwin Van Der Sar
Ronaldo had a very good game... No rating so we'll assume ronaldo was a solid 8.5-9/10.

UCL final 2014

MOTM - Sergio ramos - whoscored rating 9.5/10
Modric - 8.7/10
Ronaldo 8.5/10

UCL final 2016

MOTM Bale - whoscored rating 9.1/10
Casemiro 8.6/10
Ramos 8.5/10
Ronaldo 7.8/10

UCL Final 2017

MOTM Casemiro - whoscored rating 8.7/10
Ronaldo 8.4/10

UCL Final 2018

MOTM Bale - whoscored rating - 8.6/10
Benzema 7.9/10
Marcelo 7.6/10
Modric 7.5/10
Ramos 7.1/10
Carvajal 7.1/10
Casemiro 6.9/10
Varane 6.9/10
Isco 6.9/10
Nacho 6.8/10
Navas 6.7/10
Ronaldo 6.6/10

Ronaldo was not one of the top 11

Summary:

Ronaldo average UCL final rating (with 2008 9/10 assumption) - 8/10

Ronaldo average UCL final rating (4 madrid UCL final alone) - 7.8/10

MOTM 0/5

Summary:

MOTM in UCL Final:

Messi 3/3 Ronaldo 0/5

Average rating in UCL Final

Messi 9.4/10 Ronaldo 8.0/10

I'm going to quote you again here:

What sets CR7 apart is performing in the biggest games

Is the UCL Final not the biggest game in club football?

If you want I can show you an international Final analysis.. Maybe Ronaldo is better in that scenario?

[LukeS1]

UCL Finals are second biggest game, after the World Cup Final. The sample size is too small, or anyone though to use those alone.

Quarter Finals onwards in Champions League games, and Knockout Stages onwards in International Tournaments is really the range to rank the greatest players. With the caveat ofc, that International last 16 and QF ties can often be against poor opposition in the Copa America, or even in finals in the case of Argentina V Chile twice.

[LukeS1]

But ultimately ofc its what they actually win, and how they win it.

Michael Jordan lead his team to threepeat two times, and had huge performances to take over games in each of those wins. LeBron has better overall stats, may be a more complete player, and also has some Championships but only in great teams.

You'd be an absolute moron to pick LeBron over MJ to win you a ring, and you'd be just as daft to pick Messi over CR7 to win a Champions League trophy. To me that fact means theres no dispute, CR7 is the greater, and better player.

[LukeS1]

I really enjoy watching Messi too, hes one of my favourite players for sure. And theres nothing wrong with you guys having a personal preference for him, just like some people might prefer watching Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers over Tom Brady.

But to claim Messi>CR7 or Peyton>Brady, thats just being plain silly. I'm just going to remind you guys;

Messi has 4 CL trophies, but played in 3 (one was when he was 17 and was injured throughout the knockouts, Xavi, Iniesta and co won it for him). Of those 3 he has been involved in, if you remove all Messi's goals they still win 2 of those, and other players actually stood out more in those runs. A return of only 3 wins, in roughly 15 years playing with the most stacked team in Europe for most if not all of that is frankly, poor.

Ronaldo has won 5 CL Trophies and reached 6 finals (to Messi's 3). CR7's goal contributions have been vital to all 5 of those wins, including several hattricks in comeback wins. All of this with good and great teams, but not all time great like Barca's Xavi, Iniesta generation.

[LukeS1]

As much as I like to watch Messi, and enjoy his style. His career has been a massive underachievement, in terms of success on the big stage. Both with Barcalona, but also to lose 4 finals with Argentina, without his side registering a single goal in 450 minutes of football.

As a whole, Messi is a bigger choker than Spurs with Covid-19.

[Dontoewsmebro]

Man can we stop the Messi Ronaldo argument now? It just keeps going back and forth lets just enjoy that in our lifetime for most of us we were able to watch original Ronaldo the Brazil team in 2002....Zidane, Henry, Cannavaro, Maldini, Buffon, Casillas, Spain team 2008-2012. Messi and Ronaldo, and now Mbappe.

Anyways, looks like Obamafone signed a new contract with Arsenal sign dat ting Auba.

Willian coming too can't complain we need depth at wing. Heard it's 100k a week too not bad.

[AJR123456]

I really enjoy watching Messi too, hes one of my favourite players for sure. And theres nothing wrong with you guys having a personal preference for him, just like some people might prefer watching Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers over Tom Brady.

But to claim Messi>CR7 or Peyton>Brady, thats just being plain silly. I'm just going to remind you guys;

Messi has 4 CL trophies, but played in 3 (one was when he was 17 and was injured throughout the knockouts, Xavi, Iniesta and co won it for him). Of those 3 he has been involved in, if you remove all Messi's goals they still win 2 of those, and other players actually stood out more in those runs. A return of only 3 wins, in roughly 15 years playing with the most stacked team in Europe for most if not all of that is frankly, poor.

Ronaldo has won 5 CL Trophies and reached 6 finals (to Messi's 3). CR7's goal contributions have been vital to all 5 of those wins, including several hattricks in comeback wins. All of this with good and great teams, but not all time great like Barca's Xavi, Iniesta generation.

Although I agree that who you that preference is a matter of opinion, statistically speaking your statements are incorrect.


We've already established that Messi is the better performer on the biggest club stage.. The UCL final.. Messi has been MOTM on all 3 occasions while Ronaldo has been underwhelming in UCL finals. In fact Ronaldo has never been MOTM in a major final. UCL or International.

But lets focus on your point. Slightly less important games than the final, the UCL knockout stages.

We'll examine Real Madrid's 4 UCL wins starting with 2013/2014

2013/2014

Round of 16 - Benzema was the standout in the first leg, Ronaldo in the second.

Summary - the team breezed through this round with Benzema, Ronaldo and Bale standing out

UCL 2013/2014 1/4 finals

Ronaldo was not one of the top performers in the first leg, and he did not play the second leg

UCL 2013/2014 semi finals

First leg ronaldo was the worst player on the field

Second leg pepe was MOTM followed by an outstanding performance by Sergio Ramos

UCL 2013/2014 Final

Sergio Ramos was the MOTM


2013/2014 UCL conclusion

Ronaldo did not carry Real Madrid to a championship, they carried him. Sergio Ramos had the biggest impact in the final. Overall Ronaldo had a good tournament, but by no means did he carry them as his performances were just average beyond the round of 16.



UCL 2015/2016 Round of 16

First leg Ronaldo was MOTM however he and the whole team played poorly and squeeked by, Ronaldo had 1 of the 2 goals.

Second leg Rodriguez was the MOTM

UCL 2015/2016 1/4 finals

First leg Ronaldo was the lowest rated player on the field with a 6.2/10

Second leg Ronaldo was MOTM he shared a 9.2 rating with Ramos - his rating could have been higher if all 3 of his goals not been tap ins. Outside the goals, little involvement

UCL 2015/2016 semi finals

First leg Ronaldo did not play

Second Leg Ronaldo had the worst performance on the field. Bale was MOTM

UCL 2015/2016 Final

Bale was MOTM again, Ronaldo was not one of the top 3 performers.

Conclusion: Ronaldo did not carry Real Madrid to a trophy, they carried him. Bale was the top performer in the semi finals and finals.


UCL 2016/2017 round of 16

First leg Ronaldo was not MOTM, no goals or assists

Second leg Ronaldo was not MOTM, was not one of the top 5 performers.

UCL 2016/2017 1/4 finals

First leg Ronaldo was MOTM with 8.7/10 - very good game

Second leg Ronaldo was not MOTM as 2 of the 3 goals he scored were more than 3 feet offside. Whoscored factored this in despite the fact that the referee ignored his linesmen twice to let the goals stand.. Marcelo was MOTM with a 10/10 rating. The referee for this match has not officiated in the UCL or any major leagues since this event.

UCL 2016/2017 semi finals

First leg Ronaldo was undoubtedly MOTM, this may have been his best ever UCL performance, a solid 10/10.

Second leg one of Ronaldo's worst performances, he was the worst player on the field with a 6.5/10 rating.


2016/2017 UCL Final

Casemiro was MOTM Ronaldo also performed well with an 8.4/10 rating.


Conclusion: played a pivotal role in the first leg of the 1/4 final and the first leg of the semi final. He also played well in the final.

By no means did Ronaldo "Carry" Madrid, but overall he was their most influential player in this Campaign. I think it's fair to say that Real Madrid might not have won this UCL without Ronaldo.


2017/2018 UCL round of 16

First leg Ronaldo and real madrid overall were both poor, however Ronaldo scored 2 penalties to win the match and was awarded MOTM

Second leg Casemiro was MOTM with a 9.4/10, Ronaldo was without a doubt the second best performer with an 8.8/10.. The rest of Madrid were pretty poor.

2017/2018 UCL 1/4 Final

First leg Fantastic performance by Ronaldo, MOTM, 9.9/10, Ronaldo was BY FAR the best player on Madrid in this game.

Second leg Ronaldo had a terrible game and was not MOTM. However he got Madrid through with a penalty that he earned by diving. Replays showed that there was no contact. But without Ronaldo's dive, Real Madrid would not have continued.. Judge this how you will

2017/2018 UCL Semi Finals

First leg Ronaldo was the worst player on the field with a 6.6/10

Second leg Ronaldo was again one of the worst players on the field with a 7/10

2017/2018 UCL Final

By far Ronaldo's worst final performance ever. He was 12th on Madrid, the worst of the starters. Bale was MOTM

Conclusion: Overall Ronaldo did well in the round of 16, scoring 2 penalties in the first leg, and making good contributions in the 2nd leg. Ronaldo also had a STELLAR performance in the first leg of the 1/4 final. He also made a crucial DIVE to keep Madrid in the tournament in the second leg.

Unfortunately Ronaldo was the worst player on the field 3 games in a row through the semi finals and Finals.

I don't think it's fair to say Ronaldo Carried Real Madrid, or that he was single handedly responsible for their win.. However Ronaldo was single handedly responsible for taking them through the 1/4 finals. and played a big role in the round of 16.

All evidence points to Real Madrid winning this as a team with no real standout in this tournament.




OVERALL in Madrid's 4 UCL win's with Ronaldo, Ronaldo was truly the guy who made it happen in 2017. In the other 3 wins Ronaldo had no impact whatsoever in the semi finals and very little impact in the 1/4 finals.

Yes he has made big goal contributions at the right moments in the round of 16, occasionally in the 1/4 finals. But he has had very little impact beyond that point on whether or not Madrid win.

[AJR123456]

As much as I like to watch Messi, and enjoy his style. His career has been a massive underachievement, in terms of success on the big stage. Both with Barcalona, but also to lose 4 finals with Argentina, without his side registering a single goal in 450 minutes of football.

As a whole, Messi is a bigger choker than Spurs with Covid-19.

If you want to compare the knockout rounds of Ronaldo's 4 UCL winning campaigns with Real Madrid to Messi's 3 UCL winning campaigns with Barcelona.

Overall Ronaldo is the best on Real Madrid in terms of average rating and MOTM with 8.1/10 and 9 MOTM over 22 games in 4 successful campaigns.

Overall Messi is the best on Barcelona in terms of average rating and MOTM with 8.9/10 and 12 MOTM out of 18 Games.

If you factor in the finals

Messi has produced 15 MOTM out of 21 matches in Barcelona's successful UCL campaigns and an average rating of 9/10.

Ronaldo has produced 9 MOTM out of 26 matches with an average rating of 8/10.

In addition Messi is the only player in the history of the UCL to win 7 consecutive MOTM in the knockout stages of the tournament to bring his team to victory.

Ronaldo is the Best player in UCL history to be rated as the worst player on his team 3 times in a row from semi final to championship.


As good as Messi is, it's hard for me to say that he carried Barcelona to a UCL trophy because the 2009 & 2011 teams were the best in the history of the sport, and the 2015 had other substantial contributers like suarez and Neymar. Just like I can't say that Ronaldo carried his team..

It's a team sport. What I can say is that Ronaldo is remarkably inconsistent in the knockout rounds. One game he's one of the greatest players in history, the next he's the most useless player on the team. It's really a mental game with him, he puts enormous pressure on himself.

On the other hand Messi has only ranked below 8/10 twice out of 21 games in the knockout rounds of UCL winning campaigns. He's remarkably consistent and splits his contribution between play making and goal scoring where as Ronaldo has become a deadly and clinical goal poacher. The best box player in the history of the sport. But inconsistent as he is unable to play deep or alter his game if he is not receiving service.

Messi is the best on his team in knockout rounds of winning competitions 71% of the time and has never dropped below 3rd. Whereas Ronaldo is the best on his team in the knockout rounds of winning competitions 35% of the time and drops to the bottom or near the bottom of his team 20% of the time.

Ronaldo relies alot more on his team than Messi does as his role is different. A prime example of this is despite the fact that ronaldo has more knockout round goals than messi, Messi has twice as many solo knockout round goals as Ronaldo.

Anyways the game stats are below

2008/2009 UCL round of 16

First Leg

Messi MOTM

Second leg

Thierry Henry MOTM with Messi as a close second


2008/2009 UCL 1/4 final

First leg

Messi MOTM and by far the best player

Second leg

Messi MOTM

2008/2009 UCL semi final

First leg

Xavi MOTM with messi as a close second

Second leg

Iniesta MOTM, Messi was not the man, but had a solid 8/10 performan



2010/2011 UCL round of 16

First leg

MOTM Messi, overall barcelona were poor and messi was below average but still the best on the field.

Second leg

Messi MOTM 9.8/10 by far the best player on barcelona who had a pretty poor performance.


2010/2011 UCL 1/4 final

First leg

Messi MOTM and by far the best player on the field 9.7/10

Second leg

Messi MOTM 9.2/10, Barcelona had a poor performance, Messi was by far the best on the field

2010/2011 UCL semi final

First leg

Ronaldo and Messi went head to head in this game. Messi was MOTM with a stellar 10/10, by far the best player on the field. Barcelona were below par overall with their second best player scoring a 7.4/10

Second Leg

Messi MOTM 8.5/10 with the next best on Barcelona scoring a 7.4/10


Summary: Messi was absolutely essential to Barcelona reaching the final and winning it. The only player in the history of the UCL to win 7 consecutive MOTM awards through every game of the knockout rounds including the final.



2014/2015 UCL round of 16

First leg

MOTM Messi with an 8.9/10

Second leg

MOTM Messi with a stellar performance absolutely bossing the game with a 10/10, overall barcelona were poor with Neymar putting in a solid performance as well 8/10

2014/2015 UCL 1/4 final

First leg

Suarez MOTM with an absolutely stellar performance. 9.4/10. Messi was second best providing assists with an 8.5/10

Second leg

Neymar was the star of this game. MOTM, 9.6/10. Messi was second best with a below average game by his standards. 7.9/10

2014/2015 UCL semi final

First leg

Messi MOTM, comically good in this game. 10/10 performance and an involvement in absolutely everything.

Second leg

Messi's worst performance of the tournament so far, ranking 3rd on barcelona with a 7.2/10. Neymar was the best on Barcelona with an 8.3/10


Messi average knockout performance = 8.9/10

Messi 12 MOTM in 18 games.

[TokenV]

cot damn walls of text

[LukeS1]

I'm not reading that, any of it

You try to argue Messi has better overall stats in La Liga games etc, cool different opinions we can disagree

You try to tell me Messi is more clutch? You're trolling, straight up

[LukeS1]

Frezko likes to consider Barcalona's 2007 win was attributed to Messi, despite him not playing a second of the Quarter Finals, Semi Finals or Final.

At the same time him losing 4 finals with Argentina, while they scored ZERO goals in 450 minutes was not his fault, because he only had Aguero, Tevez , Di Maria and Higuain as teammates.


You literally could not set the bar lower LMAO

[Merretto]

I'm not reading that, any of it

You try to argue Messi has better overall stats in La Liga games etc, cool different opinions we can disagree

You try to tell me Messi is more clutch? You're trolling, straight up

Bruh... you answered his previous long post with 4 chain posts of your own...

I think you skimmed through that and realized that he took your point and trapped you with your own logic and your own source to prove you wrong. So you can't reply.

According to the source that you brought up and said you respect. Messi is better in big games... Period. Not just a bit better... Alot better.

[LukeS1]

Messi in major competitions without Xavi and Iniesta (CL with Barca Post 2015 and with Argentina) :
13 total chances, ZERO TROPHIES

Xavi and Iniesta in major competitions without Messi (CL with Barca between 05 and 07 before Messi was a starter/year he was injured, plus 5 with Spain):
8 Chances, 4 Trophies

All three together (CL With Barca 2008 through 2015):
8 Chances, 3 Trophies

[MatthewChav]

So you negged me cos I called u out on not being a "true Reverse tie Crew guy" Luke?

I guess you'd nab my Football - if we was at School too .... even if we was both in the "reverse tie crew"!!!??

[Merretto]

Messi in major competitions without Xavi and Iniesta (CL with Barca Post 2015 and with Argentina) :
13 total chances, ZERO TROPHIES

Xavi and Iniesta in major competitions without Messi (CL with Barca between 05 and 07 before Messi was a starter/year he was injured, plus 5 with Spain):
8 Chances, 4 Trophies

All three together (CL With Barca 2008 through 2015):
8 Chances, 3 Trophies

If I remember correctly,

Ronaldo has played in 3 international finals and has never scored or assisted, frankly I don't remember what he did in any of them because he got injured in 1 and was completely invisible in the others... I also remember Barcelona winning quite a few trophies when Iniesta and Xavi were way wast their prime and coming off the bench. Didn't barcelona do a double last year?

With real madrid Ronaldo won only 1 trophy before Zidane came.. And he had Benzema, Modric and Kroos giving him HEAVY support.

In any case..

I'm curious, why don't you counter the guy's post?

It clearly shows Messi has ridiculous big game impact..

[LukeS1]

So you negged me cos I called u out on not being a "true Reverse tie Crew guy" Luke?

I guess you'd nab my Football - if we was at School too .... even if we was both in the "reverse tie crew"!!!??

Id kick it over fence where you cant get it mate

[MatthewChav]

Id kick it over fence where you cant get it mate

Even in the "reverse tie crew" 2gether!!

[MatthewChav]

Id kick it over fence where you cant get it mate

At my school if we let u join our "Teams" and we found you did'nt do ur Tie thin - you'd get it cut .... Vinny Jones style G!!

[LukeS1]

If I remember correctly,

Ronaldo has played in 3 international finals and has never scored or assisted, frankly I don't remember what he did in any of them because he got injured in 1 and was completely invisible in the others... I also remember Barcelona winning quite a few trophies when Iniesta and Xavi were way wast their prime and coming off the bench. Didn't barcelona do a double last year?

With real madrid he won only 1 trophy before Zidane came.. And he had Benzema, Modric and Kroos giving him HEAVY support.

In any case..

I'm curious, why don't you counter the guy's post?

It clearly shows Messi has ridiculous big game impact..

I guess you are new to football, welcome to the thread brother

CR7 featured in 2 finals with Portugal, one he came off injured very early as you said. The other was in 04, just after his first season at United, he hadn't developed to be world class yet. Really his career at the top started at about 2006.

You're right about Benzema, Kroos and Modric, great players but not at the same level as Barca's squad. Iniesta and Xavi are the two best midfielders ever, Modric and Kroos would not be top 25.

Benzema is a solid player, maybe a top 15-20 attacking player in the world, at his prime (behind Messi, Ronaldo, Robben, Ribery, Lewandowski, Hazard, Neymar, Suarez, Aguero etc...). In 2015 CR7 and Messi were of course 1 and 2, and then Neymar and Suarez were 3 and 4 in terms of best player in the world.