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    Hypertrophy questions

    Is hypertrophy where you gain muscle mass? And if it is then how many exercises for each muscle group and how many sets and reps should you do?
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    Originally Posted by JustinSmith52 View Post
    Is hypertrophy where you gain muscle mass? And if it is then how many exercises for each muscle group and how many sets and reps should you do?
    What do you bench, squat, and deadlift?

    Are you experienced enough to be able to create your own program? (Why are you not following one of the novice routines in the stickies?)
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    Originally Posted by CommitmentRulz View Post
    What do you bench, squat, and deadlift?

    Are you experienced enough to be able to create your own program? (Why are you not following one of the novice routines in the stickies?)
    The ubiquitous question "what do you bench, squat, and deadlift?" posed to novices time and again is fine for those pursuing strength/powerlifting goals. It has to be said, however, it IS a powerlifting-framed question, not one appropriate for assessing a beginner in the pursuit of bodybuilding.

    There are no arbitrary prerequisites along those lines in bodybuilding/hypertrophy training. The beginner to intermediate metrics often cited on this forum are strength training progression standards and have no direct bearing on assessing beginner to intermediate progression and program needs for those pursuing bodybuilding.
    (Ironically, only a small minority of posters here are bodybuilding rather than powerlifting focused.)

    I do think, OP, if your questions are that fundamental you would be well-served by taking a look at some of the sticky post info. If your goals are purely muscle growth (yes, that's hypertrophy) then the All Pro routine is the most purely hypertrophy-oriented of the posted novice routines for that goal.
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    "If your goals are purely muscle growth (yes, that's hypertrophy) then the All Pro routine is the most purely hypertrophy-oriented of the posted novice routines for that goal."


    Right on point! That's why I always read first before I ask a question.
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    Registered User Nelg1993's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LukeEverhart View Post
    The ubiquitous question "what do you bench, squat, and deadlift?" posed to novices time and again is fine for those pursuing strength/powerlifting goals. It has to be said, however, it IS a powerlifting-framed question, not one appropriate for assessing a beginner in the pursuit of bodybuilding.

    There are no arbitrary prerequisites along those lines in bodybuilding/hypertrophy training. The beginner to intermediate metrics often cited on this forum are strength training progression standards and have no direct bearing on assessing beginner to intermediate progression and program needs for those pursuing bodybuilding.
    (Ironically, only a small minority of posters here are bodybuilding rather than powerlifting focused.)

    I do think, OP, if your questions are that fundamental you would be well-served by taking a look at some of the sticky post info. If your goals are purely muscle growth (yes, that's hypertrophy) then the All Pro routine is the most purely hypertrophy-oriented of the posted novice routines for that goal.
    I agree with you to some extent. Especially this part: (Ironically, only a small minority of posters here are bodybuilding rather than powerlifting focused.)

    Also the arbitrary strength standards aren't good benchmarks. But... I do believe that in order to gain muscle you have to reach some standard of strength, at least the first couple of years. As Paul Carter at T-nation says: lifting heavy things for a lot of reps is what builds muscle. So first you need to gain strength and the muscle will follow. Once you get to a certain point, doing higher reps with some serious weight will build even more muscle, because you just can't keep on adding weight to the bar forever.

    I also believe the arbitrary jumps in weight on the bar (e.g. 10/5 lbs every workout/week) will only work up until a certain point. For me, starting out as a scrawny guy (59kg at 183cm), linear progression from starting strength quickly ran its course. Fastforward 2 years and now I weigh 76kg, only starting to look like I lift.

    My point being: gaining strength is what builds muscle until you reach a 315 bench for instance. But that doesn't mean you should do a pure strength training program. Do your curls, pushdowns, ab exercises... As long as you're doing the basics and focussing on progress it's fine.

    I think all pro's is a good program to start with and along the way you'll figure out what rate of progression you can handle and how to structure your training. Just don't do this right of the bat.
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    Originally Posted by Nelg1993 View Post
    Fastforward 2 years and now I weigh 76kg, only starting to look like I lift.
    And you don' see the irony here?
    bb.com, a place that turned Deadlift into a forearm isolation exercise

    and a place where 99% of 21 year olds have bad back and knees.
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    Originally Posted by ZoranM View Post
    And you don' see the irony here?
    Getting from 59kg with a bmi of 17.6 being borderline anorexic to 76kg's after a stomach surgery, barely being able to eat a yoghurt and a bowl of soup a day, and dealing with a shoulder labrum tear in the meantime isn't bad progress I think.

    Judgemental idiot.
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    Originally Posted by Nelg1993 View Post
    Getting from 59kg with a bmi of 17.6 being borderline anorexic to 76kg's after a stomach surgery, barely being able to eat a yoghurt and a bowl of soup a day, and dealing with a shoulder labrum tear in the meantime isn't bad progress I think.

    Judgemental idiot.
    Awww, don't get angry, you may upset your stomach.
    Anorexic people starting to seriously lift are not the best candidates to judge progress with. You can grow with anything.
    And people who lift for 2 measly years should not be candidates to give advice on lifting at all. PERIOD. But there are a lot of yous "advising" people here, or to say it better, parroting cr*p you read somewhere. Like: I do believe that in order to gain muscle you have to reach some standard of strength, at least the first couple of years; gaining strength is what builds muscle until you reach a 315 bench for instance.
    What a lot of meathead cr*p. Maybe if you lifted like a bodybuilder from the start, you would look like you lift 15 months ago.
    bb.com, a place that turned Deadlift into a forearm isolation exercise

    and a place where 99% of 21 year olds have bad back and knees.
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    Originally Posted by LukeEverhart View Post
    The ubiquitous question "what do you bench, squat, and deadlift?" posed to novices time and again is fine for those pursuing strength/powerlifting goals. It has to be said, however, it IS a powerlifting-framed question, not one appropriate for assessing a beginner in the pursuit of bodybuilding.

    There are no arbitrary prerequisites along those lines in bodybuilding/hypertrophy training. The beginner to intermediate metrics often cited on this forum are strength training progression standards and have no direct bearing on assessing beginner to intermediate progression and program needs for those pursuing bodybuilding.
    Obviously, I disagree, and here's why:

    An unkown/unestablished poster is obviously asking questions geared towards creating a routine. If he benches 40KG and doesn't squat or deadlift, how appropriate do you think ANY routine he creates for himself will be?

    My intention of the question is not to infer or require he meet some lifting "standard". I'm not a power lifter AT ALL. It is to try to get an understanding of 'where' he is at. Guys come on here and say they've been lifting "2 years" and bench 50KG and squat the same or less. That tells me lots, but then usually evokes admissions of well, "started lifting 2 years ago, but have taken 3 months off a few times over that 2 years" or something similar. Again, it's intended to get a "baseline", not "push" power lifting.

    Notice the OP didn't respond to the question, but just went off and asked again...
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    Originally Posted by CommitmentRulz View Post
    Obviously, I disagree, and here's why:

    An unkown/unestablished poster is obviously asking questions geared towards creating a routine. If he benches 40KG and doesn't squat or deadlift, how appropriate do you think ANY routine he creates for himself will be?

    My intention of the question is not to infer or require he meet some lifting "standard". I'm not a power lifter AT ALL. It is to try to get an understanding of 'where' he is at. Guys come on here and say they've been lifting "2 years" and bench 50KG and squat the same or less. That tells me lots, but then usually evokes admissions of well, "started lifting 2 years ago, but have taken 3 months off a few times over that 2 years" or something similar. Again, it's intended to get a "baseline", not "push" power lifting.

    Notice the OP didn't respond to the question, but just went off and asked again...
    Reasonable points. However, I cut straight to the assumption (rightly or wrongly) that he was a beginner due to the questions; and, therefore, his starting point would be the same regardless of whether he had floundered around unproductively a while or had yet to pick up a weight. I suggested a course of action with that assumption in mind when I advised him: "I do think, OP, if your questions are that fundamental you would be well-served by taking a look at some of the sticky post info. If your goals are purely muscle growth (yes, that's hypertrophy) then the All Pro routine is the most purely hypertrophy-oriented of the posted novice routines for that goal.
    "Simply put, stronger does not necessarily equal bigger, & bigger does not necessarily equal stronger" -B. Schoenfeld
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    Rep tempo, rep count, set intervals, volume can be used
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    Originally Posted by LukeEverhart View Post
    Reasonable points. However, I cut straight to the assumption (rightly or wrongly) that he was a beginner due to the questions; and, therefore, his starting point would be the same regardless of whether he had floundered around unproductively a while or had yet to pick up a weight. I suggested a course of action with that assumption in mind when I advised him: "I do think, OP, if your questions are that fundamental you would be well-served by taking a look at some of the sticky post info. If your goals are purely muscle growth (yes, that's hypertrophy) then the All Pro routine is the most purely hypertrophy-oriented of the posted novice routines for that goal.
    Why is Allpro the most hypertrophy oriented?
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    Why is Allpro the most hypertrophy oriented?
    Greater volume and broader rep ranges. Both elements better balance mechanical stress with metabolic stress elements in the interest of both myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.
    "Simply put, stronger does not necessarily equal bigger, & bigger does not necessarily equal stronger" -B. Schoenfeld
    Know your goal; train accordingly. Size is a lagging, secondary benefit of strength training; strength is a lagging, secondary benefit of size training

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    Rep tempo, rep count, set intervals, volume can be used
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    Originally Posted by LukeEverhart View Post
    Greater volume and broader rep ranges. Both elements better balance mechanical stress with metabolic stress elements in the interest of both myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.
    Erm it has less broad rep range than fierce 5 or vikings stuff. Or gzlp, or candito.

    And counting effective volume.. Probably similar to F5. Less than vikings. Gzlp depends on method and probably less than Candito.

    I'd personally vouch for bb medicine beginner programming over most of these too.. But it doesn't matter a huge amount and I doubt its even a recognizable hypertrophy difference between most since you won't run any for more than 6 months done right
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    But it doesn't matter a huge amount and I doubt its even a recognizable hypertrophy difference between most since you won't run any for more than 6 months done right
    This is the key point in my mind. I have stated for years I prefer to start true beginners who are dedicated and have patience with a simple squat/bench/deadlift 5x5 done 3 days a week starting at 50% of an estimated 5 rep max. If you get 5x5 with good form you go up 5 pounds the next workout. Keep doing this until you cannot progress in this fashion. This gives time to learn the big 3, work on technique, build good habits, and as the weight starts to get heavy you get to learn to start pushing yourself to train harder during the workouts to keep making progress.

    If someone follows that strategy they won't be doing it for more than 2 months most likely. After that then I would start a routine with a larger variety of movements.
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    Originally Posted by JustinSmith52 View Post
    Is hypertrophy where you gain muscle mass? And if it is then how many exercises for each muscle group and how many sets and reps should you do?
    Muscle hypertrophy involves an increase in size of skeletal muscle through a growth in size of its component cells.
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    Originally Posted by LukeEverhart View Post
    If your goals are purely muscle growth (yes, that's hypertrophy) then the All Pro routine is the most purely hypertrophy-oriented of the posted novice routines for that goal.
    Although I'd recommend the original novice program over what all pro did to the progression scheme. All Pro self admitted many times to not knowing much about bodybuilding. He studied training for athletes.
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    This is the key point in my mind. I have stated for years I prefer to start true beginners who are dedicated and have patience with a simple squat/bench/deadlift 5x5 done 3 days a week starting at 50% of an estimated 5 rep max. If you get 5x5 with good form you go up 5 pounds the next workout. Keep doing this until you cannot progress in this fashion. This gives time to learn the big 3, work on technique, build good habits, and as the weight starts to get heavy you get to learn to start pushing yourself to train harder during the workouts to keep making progress.

    If someone follows that strategy they won't be doing it for more than 2 months most likely. After that then I would start a routine with a larger variety of movements.
    Excellent. ^^^

    We see too many newbies doing 4 sets each of flat, incline, and decline bench, followed by chest flyes thinking they are doing the 'right' thing as a beginner. Weight is so light and doing so many reps, they are trainig only for endurance and because they are sweating a lot (cardio with light weights) they think they are annihilating their muscles and "killing it in the gym'.
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    It's kind of ridiculous how much stock you guys put into the importance of a training split/ program.

    At the end of the day...it's.not.that.big.of.a.deal

    You can outwork a ****ty program. You can't outprogram a ****ty lifter/work ethic
    Last edited by jk202; 07-24-2019 at 06:43 AM.
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    Erm it has less broad rep range than fierce 5 or vikings stuff. Or gzlp, or candito.

    And counting effective volume.. Probably similar to F5. Less than vikings. Gzlp depends on method and probably less than Candito.

    I'd personally vouch for bb medicine beginner programming over most of these too.. But it doesn't matter a huge amount and I doubt its even a recognizable hypertrophy difference between most since you won't run any for more than 6 months done right
    I meant broader rep range on the compound movements. And regarding volume, it's not just set volume but the total load volume when factoring in reps (assuming the weight is above the minimum threshold conducive to hypertrophy) times sets.
    The difference can be significant in terms of a beginner's investment in continuing to pursue weight training. That 1st 6 months as a beginner should yield on average 10# of actual, net muscle and that kind of results-based feedback is powerful in spurring dedication. (And pretty darn important in keeping a client who is hypertrophy-focused when you're an independent trainer & not relying on a chain gym to funnel clients to you.)
    Last edited by LukeEverhart; 07-24-2019 at 03:14 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    This is the key point in my mind. I have stated for years I prefer to start true beginners who are dedicated and have patience with a simple squat/bench/deadlift 5x5 done 3 days a week starting at 50% of an estimated 5 rep max. If you get 5x5 with good form you go up 5 pounds the next workout. Keep doing this until you cannot progress in this fashion. This gives time to learn the big 3, work on technique, build good habits, and as the weight starts to get heavy you get to learn to start pushing yourself to train harder during the workouts to keep making progress.

    If someone follows that strategy they won't be doing it for more than 2 months most likely. After that then I would start a routine with a larger variety of movements.
    If their goal is strength training, this is a terrific approach. But for a beginner explicitly concerned with muscle mass it's only going to be discouraging because for the vast majority that approach will not put on the otherwise very attainable 10# of actual, net muscle in that 1st 6 months that a more traditional bodybuilding approach would.
    "Simply put, stronger does not necessarily equal bigger, & bigger does not necessarily equal stronger" -B. Schoenfeld
    Know your goal; train accordingly. Size is a lagging, secondary benefit of strength training; strength is a lagging, secondary benefit of size training

    "Progressive overload means gradually making your muscles work harder. Yes, adding weight constitutes an overload, but that's not the only way..." -C. Thibaudeau
    Rep tempo, rep count, set intervals, volume can be used
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    Originally Posted by jk202 View Post
    You can outwork a ****ty program. You can't outprogram a ****ty lifter/work ethic
    No argument from me on that point ^^^ The biggest issue I see with new trainees isn't program structure or even being conscientious about recovery elements, it's the inability or unwillingness to exert themselves with enough subjective intensity.
    "Simply put, stronger does not necessarily equal bigger, & bigger does not necessarily equal stronger" -B. Schoenfeld
    Know your goal; train accordingly. Size is a lagging, secondary benefit of strength training; strength is a lagging, secondary benefit of size training

    "Progressive overload means gradually making your muscles work harder. Yes, adding weight constitutes an overload, but that's not the only way..." -C. Thibaudeau
    Rep tempo, rep count, set intervals, volume can be used
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    Originally Posted by LukeEverhart View Post
    No argument from me on that point ^^^ The biggest issue I see with new trainees isn't program structure or even being conscientious about recovery elements, it's the inability or unwillingness to exert themselves with enough subjective intensity.
    Yep, you don't really even need that much volume to grow as long as that volume is executed with proper intensity. The reason it takes some guys a ton of sets to grow is because they don't lift with proper intensity and so they are doing a lot of wasted reps.
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    Originally Posted by ncsuLuke View Post
    Yep, you don't really even need that much volume to grow as long as that volume is executed with proper intensity. The reason it takes some guys a ton of sets to grow is because they don't lift with proper intensity and so they are doing a lot of wasted reps.
    Best thing I've done in terms of training has been learning to take sets further with better execution and cutting out fluff volume
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    Originally Posted by LukeEverhart View Post
    If their goal is strength training, this is a terrific approach. But for a beginner explicitly concerned with muscle mass it's only going to be discouraging because for the vast majority that approach will not put on the otherwise very attainable 10# of actual, net muscle in that 1st 6 months that a more traditional bodybuilding approach would.
    My approach takes 2 months. Nobody is going to increase their squat/bench/deadlift 5x5 numbers by 15 pounds per week for more than 2 months. Maybe a handful... certainly not more than 3 months. It's not discouraging at all to see the tremendous strength increases that come with it and they'll gain just as much muscle doing that as anything else for the first couple of months of training (assuming they are brand new).
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    My approach takes 2 months. Nobody is going to increase their squat/bench/deadlift 5x5 numbers by 15 pounds per week for more than 2 months. Maybe a handful... certainly not more than 3 months. It's not discouraging at all to see the tremendous strength increases that come with it and they'll gain just as much muscle doing that as anything else for the first couple of months of training (assuming they are brand new).
    2 Sets 65's - done
    2- Set's of 45's - done
    2- Sets of 35's - done

    Already? And your probably still logged on browsing, right or wrong? LOL

    I don't got to go to the feds anymore. I more than likely have people like you working for me right now. What'd you say your name was again? LOL Landscaping business with over 250 Residentials / 2 apartment complexes / 2 HOA contracts / 3 commercial complexes. Now I got people like you working for me so I can hit the gym. You were probably too tired after laboring for someone else, eh?
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    Originally Posted by jk202 View Post
    Best thing I've done in terms of training has been learning to take sets further with better execution and cutting out fluff volume
    With better execution as in? Slow Reps? Or as in perfecting your form?

    I think it takes quite a bit of volume with me as I probably have a lot of fast twitch fibers. Being that I did thousands of push ups, dips a week and hundreds of pull ups every week for a long time.

    I usually use heavy weight on the first two sets. Then weights that I can get about 10 reps for the next few sets. Then drop the weight to lighter after I start tearing down. I then take a 2 minute break and go into the un-weighted sets.

    Every week I'm increasing my max pull up weight by 2.5 and 5 lb plates, and my dips are increasing each week 10 lbs on the max sets. Time I finish my heavy weighted dips and pull ups and get to the body weight exercises I'm usually down to the 8-10 range.
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    My approach takes 2 months. Nobody is going to increase their squat/bench/deadlift 5x5 numbers by 15 pounds per week for more than 2 months. Maybe a handful... certainly not more than 3 months. It's not discouraging at all to see the tremendous strength increases that come with it and they'll gain just as much muscle doing that as anything else for the first couple of months of training (assuming they are brand new).
    My goal isn't maximum muscle. Hence my first (3) sets of any exercise are HEAVY and I increase that amount every single week. But your defiantly right, I wouldn't be discouraged if I got (only) strength gains and minimum mass. Mass Gains is nice, but I don't want mass gains if I can't use it if you see what I'm saying.
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    Originally Posted by Gulfcoastlife View Post
    2 Sets 65's - done
    2- Set's of 45's - done
    2- Sets of 35's - done

    Already? And your probably still logged on browsing, right or wrong? LOL

    I don't got to go to the feds anymore. I more than likely have people like you working for me right now. What'd you say your name was again? LOL Landscaping business with over 250 Residentials / 2 apartment complexes / 2 HOA contracts / 3 commercial complexes. Now I got people like you working for me so I can hit the gym. You were probably too tired after laboring for someone else, eh?
    I think you're tripping. Enjoy your neg.
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    Originally Posted by jk202 View Post
    It's kind of ridiculous how much stock you guys put into the importance of a training split/ program.

    At the end of the day...it's.not.that.big.of.a.deal

    You can outwork a ****ty program. You can't outprogram a ****ty lifter/work ethic
    That's my point in PREVIOUS POSTS. lol
    Program or No Program.

    We did over a thousand push ups, weighted push ups, dips, and weighted push ups a week in Feds.
    Hundreds of Pull Ups and bs air squats per week.

    No program. Just one thing CONSISTENCY. Every single day. 6-7 days a week.

    And again, most that were in there and training were bigger than either of the gyms I go to. lol

    Same thing that gets me with the ones that thing Bench Press is the only way for a big upper body. lol

    Someone benches 300 at 175, comes here and says Bench Is The Only Way To Go.

    Tell them to put on a 50 lb vest, drop 100 on their back, and strap a 100 lb band over them and tell them to put their chest in the floor using handles, and they cry.

    That's why I prefer not to go to the gym. It's usually kids benching 3 days a week and been hitting the gym for 6 months, and their chest is flatter than a pencil. More ways to skin a cat than one. I prefer my way, don't have to leave the house, and don't have to watch some puss's flex in the mirror that can't lift 20 kg on their back with a pull up. lol
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    Originally Posted by CommitmentRulz View Post
    I think you're tripping. Enjoy your neg.
    Not gonna lie. I probably am tripping now. lol I was all good until I started reading a few silly post. But yea, I'm probably tripping idk what the dude does for a living. He might pull up to the gym in a Royse for all I know.
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