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  1. #1
    Registered User kusok's Avatar
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    Question Who are low carb diets for?

    Is it only and only a matter of taste? As in if someone loves to eat bacon and butter or something, they can low carb, and someone who loves their carbs can eat more carbs? Given matched calories and protein and minimum fat requirement being met is there NO difference on body composition in ANY individual regardless of their insulin sensitivity on a low carb diet VS higher carb/lower fat diet?


    I spoke to a few lifters who swear that they monitor their progress accurately, and they claim they lean out better and at higher body weight on low carb etc. Are they full of it? Or do some individuals indeed get different results on different macro breakdowns?


    When I read Lyle McDonald he does at least appear to me to suggest that people with poor insulin do better on lower carb diets. And I wonder when he suggests they do better, does he specifically refer to body composition?


    Thanks for any and all info brehs
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  2. #2
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    My understanding is that it is almost entirely based on adherence and satisfaction.

    All things being equal (protein and calories), a metabolically healthy (ie - non insulin-resistant) person will be able to process whatever substrate they consume and either burn or store it based on overall energy balance.

    If anything, I would imagine most people (again, metabolically healthy) 'do better' in terms of avoiding fat gain when their carbs are higher (keeping protein and calories matched) compared to higher fats simply because you don't store appreciable (if any) carbs in fat cells; you store fat...

    If we're talking about a cut/deficit, again I think it just comes down to adherence... KETO being a more extreme case where some folks seem to swear by it for appetite control, but it is not superior in terms of metabolic response or energy turnover and net fat loss.
    Last edited by AdamWW; 07-17-2019 at 04:58 PM.
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    Registered User jk202's Avatar
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    Idiots. Hahah no not really. I think it all comes down to preference and adherence like Adam said.

    I don't do great under 200g personally.
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    I admit I don't know much about the phys side of digestion etc... but when I cut for a show and am on 1600 cals/day, I just like to spend my cals on protein cals and not carb cals. I believe it helps me hold muscle on a cut to keep protein up so you gotta cut something; out go the carbs
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  5. #5
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    To the point on Lyle claiming people with poorer insulin sensitivity actually having an easier time leaning out when they do lower carb, I do think that could have some merit to it.

    That is - I imagine - simply because without sufficient insulin to transport glucose in your blood to your tissues, you will have a greater propensity for de novo lipogenesis and also likely burn less total calories overall because your metabolically active bodymass simply isn't functioning properly... so you have excess glucose in circulation with less ability to actually 'use' it.

    But again, in healthy people without those problems, I think it's easier to simply view fat cell as being stored dietary fat... that's really all it is, unless your surplus is very high and your carbs are high enough to convert to additional triglycerides and thus store some of that after the fact.

    In a situation where there is an energy deficit, your body is going to burn fat proportionate to the calories it needs to make up for that deficit.... if there's no additional fuel in your body to burn, you can't burn LESS bodyfat simply because you're overall intake was more carb-focused... you're low on ENERGY, and that's the matters.

    Most gym bro's probably FEEL leaner when cutting on low carb because carbs come with water, and they also can 'bulk up' more in your gut from fiber, etc, so you might feel leaner/flatter with more fat, but that isn't true fat tissue.
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    Registered Alpha mgftp's Avatar
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    Everyone has their reasons. I think for most it's an effective way to cut out calories and stay more satiated from a fatty diet. These two things combined simply help people eat less without much thought or effort.

    There are many other tertiary benefits coming about that people may or may not care about. More and more data linking carbs to neuro degenerative diseases is enough to make me personally desire to eat keto at least most days.

    But some reasons are more legitimate than others and some may not matter to most people but there are many. I just read how the military is considering forcing their Navy Seals to be on keto diets because of new data.

    https://www.muscleandfitness.com/ath...forced-go-keto

    "
    “One of the effects of truly being in ketosis is that it changes the way your body handles oxygen deprivation, so you can actually stay underwater at [deeper] depths for longer periods of time and not go into oxygen seizures,” Sanders said at the conference.
    "


    Originally Posted by jk202 View Post
    Idiots. Hahah no not really. I think it all comes down to preference and adherence like Adam said.

    I don't do great under 200g personally.
    Many people will do really poorly on low carb. By going low but not low enough to kick yourself into effective ketosis your body is still running on glycogen but not getting enough
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  7. #7
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post
    Everyone has their reasons. I think for most it's an effective way to cut out calories and stay more satiated from a fatty diet. These two things combined simply help people eat less without much thought or effort.

    There are many other tertiary benefits coming about that people may or may not care about. More and more data linking carbs to neuro degenerative diseases is enough to make me personally desire to eat keto at least most days.

    But some reasons are more legitimate than others and some may not matter to most people but there are many. I just read how the military is considering forcing their Navy Seals to be on keto diets because of new data.

    https://www.muscleandfitness.com/ath...forced-go-keto

    "
    “One of the effects of truly being in ketosis is that it changes the way your body handles oxygen deprivation, so you can actually stay underwater at [deeper] depths for longer periods of time and not go into oxygen seizures,” Sanders said at the conference.
    "




    Many people will do really poorly on low carb. By going low but not low enough to kick yourself into effective ketosis your body is still running on glycogen but not getting enough
    The research in and applications for military persons is pretty cool, as is the data on endurance athletes.

    I think for most people, if you're interested in optimizing short-burst high-intensity training styles then carbohydrates are likely going to help simply because they do seem to enhance performance. It could be a case for 'targeted KETO' if someone didn't want to go 'all out' with carbs but wanted to have carbohydrates around training times, etc.

    I've never seen any research on neurodegenerative diseases other than correlational studies, other than those wherein the disease was being treated with a low-carb/KETO diet. I'd be curious to know what mechanism would exist in carbohydrate metabolism that would possibly increase any likelihood.

    At the same time we see cultures with diets >70% carbohydrates from whole-food sources outliving other cultures who focused more on fats, etc.... but there's always other confounding factors to keep in mind... genetics, lifestyle, all of it.

    Perhaps more important than the Carb grams you consume is how you manage your blood sugar over time, who knows. One person who eats 400+ grams of carbs a day might have far better glucose management than someone eating <200g of carbs a day if the higher-carb individual was eating potatoes, oats, and berries for their primary carb sources and the lower carb person was eating white bread and captain crunch.

    Anecdotally, my fasting blood sugar is usually around 65-70, my 'random' glucose last I had it checked ended up around 100, and when I had my HBA1C checked it was like 4.2, which I was told is basically as good as you can hope for.... and I eat what most people would consider a carb-dominant diet (50-60% calories from carbs).
    Last edited by AdamWW; 07-17-2019 at 05:35 PM.
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    Registered User kusok's Avatar
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    P.s.

    Lyle’s 2.0 diet comes to mind as an example of what I’m wondering about. So, you eat 4-5 days low carb, then carb up on weekend, and he also says this works for recomp and even for bulking???.. So is he trying to take advantage of something other than “calories in VS calories out” thing? 2.0 and such would at least suggest Lyle and others believe some people can benefit from such “tricks” to improve their body composition.

    On the other hand Lyle clearly states low carb results in lower testosterone and not optimal conditions for muscle growth etc.

    Anecdotally THE worst thing about low carb for me personally is the dead libido ... and of course flatness of muscle. Then I carb up and boom, they swell up, but then stomach follows shortly if I don’t stop eating carbs. Idk...
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kusok View Post
    P.s.

    Lyle’s 2.0 diet comes to mind as an example of what I’m wondering about. So, you eat 4-5 days low carb, then carb up on weekend, and he also says this works for recomp and even for bulking???.. So is he trying to take advantage of something other than “calories in VS calories out” thing? 2.0 and such would at least suggest Lyle and others believe some people can benefit from such “tricks” to improve their body composition.

    On the other hand Lyle clearly states low carb results in lower testosterone and not optimal conditions for muscle growth etc.

    Anecdotally THE worst thing about low carb for me personally is the dead libido ... and of course flatness of muscle. Then I carb up and boom, they swell up, but then stomach follows shortly if I don’t stop eating carbs. Idk...
    The idea of cycling like that for bulking seems just silly.... zero reason to do that.

    I mean if you did that, you’d have to get into a surplus by adding more fat to maintain the same energy intake... otherwise you’d be in a net deficit... training in a deficit only to carb up for like 1-2 days would result in much less muscle growth...
    Last edited by AdamWW; 07-17-2019 at 08:24 PM.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    The idea of cycling like that for bulking seems just silly.... zero reason to do that.

    I mean if you did that, you’d have to get into a surplus by adding more fat to maintain the same energy intake... otherwise you’d be in a net deficit... training in a deficit only to carb up for like 1-2 days would result in much less muscle growth...
    i've always thought the same. it seems overcomplicated to switch up your macros every day (low carb/high carb days), but who am i to judge
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    Verified Aesthetic rhadam's Avatar
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    Answer: diabetes or prediabetes.
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    Originally Posted by rhadam View Post
    Answer: diabetes or prediabetes.
    ^ That

    If you want an anecdote OP, I used to get severe dizziness and anxiety when trying to lose weight even at a moderate calorie deficit. I made it work by reducing carbs to tiny amount and padding them out with lots of fibrous vegetables. I mostly ate meat, beans, eggs, veggies and dairy

    It seemed to work. Perhaps it was partly down to just losing weight and getting fitter but I don't think that's all there was to it.

    I eat carbs all the time now, even when dieting...
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    People with insulin resistance are going to produce more insulin. Just because you have insulin resistance in some parts of the body does not mean you have the same level of insulin resistance everywhere. Additionally, we don't fully understand metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance, weight gain, and what comes first (some evidence suggest weight gain comes first in some instances while in others insulin resistance drives weight gain). So if you have insulin resistance and eat a lot fast absorbing carbs, that will cause a big jump in blood glucose, you'll get a lot more insulin secreted, and that insulin will drive all of the anabolic processes in the body, including increased adiposity. So with insulin resistance low carb diets can be helpful, though the Ma Pi 2 diet has been shown to work well and this is a high carb diet (but slow-digesting and thus not causing big swings in blood glucose).
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    Originally Posted by kusok View Post
    I spoke to a few lifters who swear that they monitor their progress accurately, and they claim they lean out better and at higher body weight on low carb etc. Are they full of it? Or do some individuals indeed get different results on different macro breakdowns?
    Some people will do better on low carb. Some do better on high carb. There's not much more to it. There are probably more bodybuilders who do better on high carb low fat than vice versa.

    The idea that it's because of insulin sensitivity isn't well backed up by studies, from what I've seen.

    Why the lifters you spoke to seemed to prefer low carb I do not know. Maybe your group of friends has selected itself. Or maybe you spoke to older guys, which tend to have poorer carb tolerance in general.

    I've seen a couple of studies with advanced body builder in contest prep that got excellent body comp results on high carb, high protein, very low fat.

    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post
    More and more data linking carbs to neuro degenerative diseases is enough to make me personally desire to eat keto at least most days.
    You were probably reading nonsense sources but feel free to surprise me.

    I'll be surprised if you can find any study linking legumes, fruit or whole grains to neuro degenerative diseases. I can find some that show the opposite.

    I can also find a few studies that link keto to increased LDL, hair loss, impaired growth and kidney stones by the way. But keto fans don't like to mention those usually.

    Originally Posted by kusok View Post
    Lyle’s 2.0 diet comes to mind as an example of what I’m wondering about. So, you eat 4-5 days low carb, then carb up on weekend, and he also says this works for recomp and even for bulking???..
    Zero evidence to support this approach. In fact the only study done with cyclical keto showed poor results. This makes sense too: the body needs time to fully adjust. Switching back and forth doesn't make sense.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 07-18-2019 at 11:56 PM.
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    I love my power hour MrCarrot's Avatar
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    My sensible side would say it comes down to preference.

    What I have found is that if I eat simple sugars in the evening (candy, desert, etc) I swear I look leaner the next morning. Which would go against all conventional wisdom but I've noticed this several times.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MrCarrot View Post
    My sensible side would say it comes down to preference.

    What I have found is that if I eat simple sugars in the evening (candy, desert, etc) I swear I look leaner the next morning. Which would go against all conventional wisdom but I've noticed this several times.

    Personal trainers hate you and your weird tricks
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    It's just what people seem to prefer.

    There's no chance I'd survive on a low carb diet because I'd hit my calories for a days like a good boy then I'd hit them...and then I'd go all Bear Grylls survivor mode digging out the back of my freezer for an ice cream cone or anything sweet that's been there seemingly since Ricky Martin hit the charts.
    I have a good joke about water retention. But I'm going to hold onto it for now.
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    I love my power hour MrCarrot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Personal trainers hate you and your weird tricks
    Yes. Of course it could be coincidental. Or my imagination. But either way it makes me feel better about it lol.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Some people will do better on low carb. Some do better on high carb. There's not much more to it. There are probably more bodybuilders who do better on high carb low fat than vice versa.

    The idea that it's because of insulin sensitivity isn't well backed up by studies, from what I've seen.

    Why the lifters you spoke to seemed to prefer low carb I do not know. Maybe your group of friends has selected itself. Or maybe you spoke to older guys, which tend to have poorer carb tolerance in general.
    This. I know a lot of older lifters who do well on lower carb diets, and they all seem to have impaired insulin sensitivity because they talk about being extremely tired and sluggish when they eat higher carb diets. I'm the exact opposite. I eat what could be considered a high to a very-high carb diet and I always feel very energized from eating carbs. Whenever I've eaten lower carbs, my body responded horribly and I had no energy. Higher fat meals actually tend to make me feel exhausted and my gym performance is heavily impacted by even minor carbohydrate restriction.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    This. I know a lot of older lifters who do well on lower carb diets, and they all seem to have impaired insulin sensitivity because they talk about being extremely tired and sluggish when they eat higher carb diets. I'm the exact opposite. I eat what could be considered a high to a very-high carb diet and I always feel very energized from eating carbs. Whenever I've eaten lower carbs, my body responded horribly and I had no energy. Higher fat meals actually tend to make me feel exhausted and my gym performance is heavily impacted by even minor carbohydrate restriction.
    Same here, I tend to aviod fat before going to the gym for said reasons... energy levels plummet with fat intake, so I save it for the afternoon, or even better pre-bedtime when I generally don't intend to do anything productive.

    Normally my carb intake is 40-60% of my daily calories, protein is 30-50% which leaves fat at 10-30% or so.
    ~ Feel free to PM me if you have any questions ~

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    x2 on Strawng and Tucane's posts. I'm a carb guy.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    betas
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    This study followed 35 male body builders during contest prep.
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    The most successful ones consumed an average of 431 gram carbs per day at the start and 340 (!) gram carbs at the end.
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    The less successful ones (that din’t place) tended to consume less carbs. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5769537/
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    The forum has a glitch. It will only let me post if I post single sentences
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    The forum has a glitch. It will only let me post if I post single sentences
    forum feeling sad
    but permitting you to post
    as a haiku now
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    The forum has a glitch. It will only let me post if I post single sentences
    Maybe it's trying to filter biased posting.
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    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post
    Maybe it's trying to filter biased posting.
    Ironic, coming from the man who thinks that carbs cause neurodegenerative diseases.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    The forum has a glitch. It will only let me post if I post single sentences
    I’m glad I’m not the only one experiencing this... it happens to me every week or so. Also the password reset notice is all messed up too.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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