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    When did keto hate kick off?

    Ive used keto for over 7 years usually 2-5 months a year and ive been a member here for awhile and never seen such disdain til recently. I posted a question about CLA and keto interactions and 90% of the response was just anti keto/IF as opposed to CLA related. In fact the only response related to CLA was to drop it. Dont get me wrong I appreciate any response but did I miss something? I see plenty of studies giving keto credence especially for what I use it for (muscle sparing weight loss) have I missed something?
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    Registered User Ghawk21's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CJJ View Post
    Ive used keto for over 7 years usually 2-5 months a year and ive been a member here for awhile and never seen such disdain til recently. I posted a question about CLA and keto interactions and 90% of the response was just anti keto/IF as opposed to CLA related. In fact the only response related to CLA was to drop it. Dont get me wrong I appreciate any response but did I miss something? I see plenty of studies giving keto credence especially for what I use it for (muscle sparing weight loss) have I missed something?
    Its not hate it just that keto gets credited as some magic thing for weightloss when in reality its no different than a normal diet when calories are matched. You will only lose weight if you're in a caloric deficit. How you accomplish that is up to you but theres nothing magical about keto. Same with IF, its just an eating window that can be used to get into a caloric deficit. You can be keto and following IF and gain weight if you consume too many calories(surplus). Given that keto is low-moderate protein its also not really muscle sparing. IF is also not muscle sparing as you miss windows to stimulate muscle protein synthesis. CLA is completely useless, that ship sailed awhile back.

    Edit to add:https://examine.com/supplements/conj...linoleic-acid/
    Last edited by Ghawk21; 05-03-2019 at 12:28 PM. Reason: more info
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  3. #3
    A cool guy :) CJJ's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ghawk21 View Post
    Its not hate it just that keto gets credited as some magic thing for weightloss when in reality its no different than a normal diet when calories are matched. You will only lose weight if you're in a caloric deficit. How you accomplish that is up to you but theres nothing magical about keto. Same with IF, its just an eating window that can be used to get into a caloric deficit. You can be keto and following IF and gain weight if you consume too many calories(surplus). Given that keto is low-moderate protein its also not really muscle sparing. IF is also not muscle sparing as you miss windows to stimulate muscle protein synthesis. CLA is completely useless, that ship sailed awhile back.
    Ive found for my body body I retain size noticeably better while in keto however I do eat 120-150g of protein.

    As for CLA I got 350 x 500mg for $20 couldnt pass up trying it for that ive never tried it.
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    Registered User Ghawk21's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CJJ View Post
    Ive found for my body body I retain size noticeably better while in keto however I do eat 120-150g of protein.

    As for CLA I got 350 x 500mg for $20 couldnt pass up trying it for that ive never tried it.
    If you go too high in protein you might not even be in ketosis but rather just a low carb diet, unless you're peeing on the sticks to confirm you won't know. If it works for you then all the power to you. I posted a link to examine where you can see all the evidence about CLA being bunk.
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    A cool guy :) CJJ's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ghawk21 View Post
    If you go too high in protein you might not even be in ketosis but rather just a low carb diet, unless you're peeing on the sticks to confirm you won't know. If it works for you then all the power to you. I posted a link to examine where you can see all the evidence about CLA being bunk.
    I test acetone. Just for fun ive tested it and it seems like depending on my body fat percentage I cant really go above 150. If I get around 10% bodyfat I need to cut protein down to like 100 but I only diet in keto to around 12-14.
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    When people following KETO started claiming it's basically the fountain of youth and spreading misinformation about it's potential benefits.
    The power of carbs compels me!

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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    When people following KETO started claiming it's basically the fountain of youth and spreading misinformation about it's potential benefits.
    right.

    I'd say when the fad took off is when people really started the "hating". Just like Atkins and Paleo people think it is some new miracle diet that was just created. When in reality it's just another form of diet that has been regurgitated and renamed.

    Just saw a girl post the other day on FB "thinking of doing paleo, any suggestions?". I kindly informed her it wasn't necessary and isn't practical for the majority of people, so just eat in a deficit and work out. But to each their own

    At the end of the day fat people are going to be fat.
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  8. #8
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by adigiro1 View Post
    right.

    I'd say when the fad took off is when people really started the "hating". Just like Atkins and Paleo people think it is some new miracle diet that was just created. When in reality it's just another form of diet that has been regurgitated and renamed.

    Just saw a girl post the other day on FB "thinking of doing paleo, any suggestions?". I kindly informed her it wasn't necessary and isn't practical for the majority of people, so just eat in a deficit and work out. But to each their own

    At the end of the day fat people are going to be fat.
    Yeah anytime someone tells me about their diet plan, I always ask "why?". If they just say, "I think it'd be easy to stick to", then I say "great, I hope it works out!"

    As soon as they come back talking about completely unsubstantiated nonsense... I just roll my eyes and walk away ;o)

    KETO is fine if you like it, obviously, but so is any hypocaloric diet strategy which also provides adequate protein and essential fats.
    The power of carbs compels me!

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    since keto diet was first a thing.

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    A cool guy :) CJJ's Avatar
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    The food options on keto for me is a big draw. I am by far less tempted to cheat in keto thats probably the biggest reason I have success in keto that and I dont really do well with doing things halfway. If I cheat in keto I get knocked out the more black/whiteness of it is a draw that immediate punishment works for me.
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    I think it started once everyone started looking at their thyroid lab results.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    When people following KETO started claiming it's basically the fountain of youth and spreading misinformation about it's potential benefits.
    This

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    A cool guy :) CJJ's Avatar
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    Ive always just looked at it as a muscle sparing diet that I can stick too. I have seen some crazy stuff on facebook I usually just ignore and unfollow whoever posts stuff like that. They go into my itworks section.
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  14. #14
    Registered User KetoBob's Avatar
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    Thomas DeLauer has a great youtube channel that covers a lot of facts and myths about keto. And he always references studies done by the top medical journals and universities. Very informative and you get the real facts. Can't post links as yet, but just Google Thomas DeLauer Youtube keto.

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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Yeah anytime someone tells me about their diet plan, I always ask "why?". If they just say, "I think it'd be easy to stick to", then I say "great, I hope it works out!"

    As soon as they come back talking about completely unsubstantiated nonsense... I just roll my eyes and walk away ;o)

    KETO is fine if you like it, obviously, but so is any hypocaloric diet strategy which also provides adequate protein and essential fats.
    I think keto is getting hate because of misinformation like this. Nutrition and energy is not digital, and is not an on-off switch as suggested by a hypocaloric diet. The human body and its energy system are very complex, and a calorie is not a calorie. A hypocaloric diet generally works, but if you consume a high carb load in a deficit while experiencing metabolic syndrome, weight loss can be impossible, which is why so many fail.

    Anyone who thinks the calories in vs calories out model is effective has never been morbidly obese. Your body has no calorie meter. If fact, your body has no idea how many calories you eat, and only responds to the presence or not of various triggers, hormones, enzymes and proteins etc to turn on and off individual cellular functions to satisfy immediate needs.

    One can eat 1000 calories per day of only carbs, and while in a caloric deficit, will not lose weight if they are producing insulin. Insulin is the energy storage hormone, and if you're a high responder like most obese people are, it can be very difficult to lose weight. The converse is true, in that you can consume a hypercaloric diet of fats and moderate protein and not gain weight. With little or no insulin to store incoming energy, unused food simply passes. However, this paragraph is an oversimplification, and the response to diet varies by person. Most people who stick to the hypocaloric theory I have found are insulin low responders who have been thin their whole life, with no food addictions or struggles (except to gain mass).

    That being said, the benefits to keto are FAR above that for weight loss. It's endurance, cognitive clarity, anti-inflammatory, immune system support, freedom from meal timing, etc.

    There is overwhelming science showing the benefits of a ketogenic diet above and beyond anything related to exercise and fat loss. It's been know to reverse disease, and this is highly documented. I'm surprised someone with such high rep power on this forum isn't more educated on the topic.

    *edited typo
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  16. #16
    Registered User Ghawk21's Avatar
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    ^ You been sippin some serious keto koolaid. Recent studies disagree. Heres one regarding the anti inflammatory magic:
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1002/oby.22468

    A calorie is quite literally a unit of measurement so saying a calorie isn't a calorie is like saying a mile isn't a mile. The idea that a very large person wouldn't lose weight via extreme caloric restriction is nonsense. Same that you could eat an excess of fat and protein and not gain weight. Some people, for some reason, use keto to bulk and successfully gain weight so how would you explain that without the insulin fairy? There is not an overwhelming amount of science proving practically any of the crap getting tossed around about keto. There's some emerging benefits about Alzheimer's but that's hardly relevant on bodybuilding website with a mostly healthy population focused on building muscle and weight loss.

    People like you are the reason people falsely believe keto is some magic fix when in reality it is simply a way some people achieve a caloric deficit.
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  17. #17
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KetoBob View Post
    Thomas DeLauer has a great youtube channel that covers a lot of facts and myths about keto. And he always references studies done by the top medical journals and universities. Very informative and you get the real facts. Can't post links as yet, but just Google Thomas DeLauer Youtube keto.
    LOL! That guy is a freakin hack and a moron
    The power of carbs compels me!

  18. #18
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Gen1GT View Post
    I think keto is getting hate because of misinformation like this. Nutrition and energy is not digital, and is not an on-off switch as suggested by a hypocaloric diet. The human body and its energy system are very complex, and a calorie is not a calorie. A hypocaloric diet generally works, but if you consume a high carb load in a deficit while experiencing metabolic syndrome, weight loss can be impossible, which is why so many fail.

    Anyone who thinks the calories in vs calories out model is effective has never been morbidly obese. Your body has no calorie meter. If fact, your body has no idea how many calories you eat, and only responds to the presence or not of various triggers, hormones, enzymes and proteins etc to turn on and off individual cellular functions to satisfy immediate needs.

    One can eat 1000 calories per day of only carbs, and while in a caloric deficit, will not lose weight if they are producing insulin. Insulin is the energy storage hormone, and if you're a high responder like most obese people are, it can be very difficult to lose weight. The converse is true, in that you can consume a hypercaloric diet of fats and moderate protein and not gain weight. With little or no insulin to store incoming energy, unused food simply passes. However, this paragraph is an oversimplification, and the response to diet varies by person. Most people who stick to the hypocaloric theory I have found are insulin low responders who have been thin their whole life, with no food addictions or struggles (except to gain mass).

    That being said, the benefits to keto are FAR above that for weight loss. It's endurance, cognitive clarity, anti-inflammatory, immune system support, freedom from meal timing, etc.

    There is overwhelming science showing the benefits of a ketogenic diet above and beyond anything related to exercise and fat loss. It's been know to reverse disease, and this is highly documented. I'm surprised someone with such high rep power on this forum isn't more educated on the topic.

    *edited typo
    Then explain to me how I eat over 400g of carbs a day and stay ~10% bodyfat and have no health issues, haven't been sick in years, I eat whenever the heck I want, etc.

    How in shape are you? How is YOUR bloodsugar? YOUR inflammatory markers?

    Morbid obesity occurs from chronic over-consumption of calories, this is proven time and time again.

    Now, you can GET there however you want, but hormonal and metabolic changes happen when you get super/morbidly obese, sure, but ANY reduction in calories will make you lose weight... I don't care what it's from.


    And your comments on 1000 calories from carbs and insulin is pure idiocy... do you not realize what insulin does? Do you not realize that fat storage does not occur in an energy deficit? What the heck do you think bodyfat is!?

    You can't continue living running on fairy-dust and dreams... if you under-consume energy, WHERE do you think your body will get it from? Go back to grade school.
    The power of carbs compels me!

  19. #19
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    AdamWW wrote:

    "LOL! That guy is a freakin hack and a moron"

    Why? Because YOU said so? Where's your degree in nutrition? How about you try refuting the numerous studies DeLauer covers, all the studies published in medical journals, etc? Are all those doctors and scientists "hacks and morons" too? Because DeLauer isn't making up facts - he's presenting what the research shows. Refute the research. Otherwise, your dismissal is nonsense.

  20. #20
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KetoBob View Post
    AdamWW wrote:

    "LOL! That guy is a freakin hack and a moron"

    Why? Because YOU said so? Where's your degree in nutrition? How about you try refuting the numerous studies DeLauer covers, all the studies published in medical journals, etc? Are all those doctors and scientists "hacks and morons" too? Because DeLauer isn't making up facts - he's presenting what the research shows. Refute the research. Otherwise, your dismissal is nonsense.
    LOL, so you expect me to watch every single video he has made and comment on every study wherein he read the abstract and made a stupid assessment of the results? Yeah, no thanks, I'm not up for spending days and months actually reading all of them.

    However, if you want to use credentials as a qualifier for legitimacy in providing recommendations, you might be interested to know he has zero education on this subject... he's basically a life coach / fitness dude who just wants to make money, and it's people like you who take the bait that feed his income with responding to silly headlines he sends out.

    Anyone can make a YouTube channel, read scientific study SUMMARIES, and claim to know something... he's just using his good genetics and leanness to sell crap.

    He is no more credible a source of info than a random store clerk or anyone else who just likes trendy stuff.
    The power of carbs compels me!

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    The problem is that we have fanatics on both sides of the issue. On one hand we have the keto fanatics who proclaim that you can eat unlimited calories and lose weight, that calories don't count, that keto is some magic bullet that cures all. Then on the other side we have the keto-haters who (for whatever reason) simply hate keto, and who proclaim that anyone who supports a ketogenic diet is a "hack and moron". As usual, the truth lies somewhere in between.

    Using myself as a single example, after being on keto for a few months, my homocysteine and c-reactive protein plummeted from high to excellent numbers, my cholesterol got better than it was before (it was good to begin with, but now better values), various aches and pains I used to have all the time went away, and I do have more STABLE energy than when I was eating a lot of carbs in my diet.

    Yes, I lost fat and gained muscle eating 120g to 200g+ of carbs a day and between 3,500 and 3,800 calories a day. But while doing keto, I've gained even better lean muscle, cut more fat, and so on. So no, it's not a magic wand. Calories count. But they're only part of the equation. Sad to see such an effective diet being bashed by haters for no reason. But that's life these days.

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    Originally Posted by KetoBob View Post
    The problem is that we have fanatics on both sides of the issue. On one hand we have the keto fanatics who proclaim that you can eat unlimited calories and lose weight, that calories don't count, that keto is some magic bullet that cures all. Then on the other side we have the keto-haters who (for whatever reason) simply hate keto, and who proclaim that anyone who supports a ketogenic diet is a "hack and moron". As usual, the truth lies somewhere in between.

    Using myself as a single example, after being on keto for a few months, my homocysteine and c-reactive protein plummeted from high to excellent numbers, my cholesterol got better than it was before (it was good to begin with, but now better values), various aches and pains I used to have all the time went away, and I do have more STABLE energy than when I was eating a lot of carbs in my diet.

    Yes, I lost fat and gained muscle eating 120g to 200g+ of carbs a day and between 3,500 and 3,800 calories a day. But while doing keto, I've gained even better lean muscle, cut more fat, and so on. So no, it's not a magic wand. Calories count. But they're only part of the equation. Sad to see such an effective diet being bashed by haters for no reason. But that's life these days.
    I have no problem with KETO. I have problems with people lying about how KETO works and making hyperbolic claims about its effects.
    The power of carbs compels me!

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    I was going to try Keto , till I heard Cinnabon wasn’t Keto friendly
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    AdamWW wrote:

    "LOL, so you expect me to watch every single video he has made and comment on every study wherein he read the abstract and made a stupid assessment of the results? Yeah, no thanks, I'm not up for spending days and months actually reading all of them.

    However, if you want to use credentials as a qualifier for legitimacy in providing recommendations, you might be interested to know he has zero education on this subject... he's basically a life coach / fitness dude who just wants to make money, and it's people like you who take the bait that feed his income with responding to silly headlines he sends out.

    Anyone can make a YouTube channel, read scientific study SUMMARIES, and claim to know something... he's just using his good genetics and leanness to sell crap.

    He is no more credible a source of info than a random store clerk or anyone else who just likes trendy stuff."

    No, I expect you to back you claims with more evidence than just "because I said so". Again, I'll spell it out. DeLauer isn't making this stuff up. He's presenting and sharing information from actual medical studies and scientific journals. If he is indeed a "hack and a moron" as you claim, and what he's doing is simply repeating what the studies said, then by default you're also calling all the studies and doctors you conducted them and who wrote the articles "hacks and morons".

    Yes, he is a life coach and he's clearly not just genetically gifted. Look at his before and after pics. The guy bothered to educate himself and heal himself and build himself up. There's nothing wrong with him promoting himself on his Youtube channel. I don't pay him any money. He does have deals with some great companies such as Butcher Box and Thrive, for which he passes savings on to people who buy those products. I just got a ****load of meat from Butcher Box because I found it thru his Youtube channel and it's higher quality and a LOT less than I'd be paying for similar grassfed products at Whole Foods. AND I got a $20 using his link. How is that a bad thing. I saved money.

    Taking the bait? What bait? I go check the research he presents in his videos and so far I've seen nothing that he's lied about or misrepresented that was untrue.

    I'm starting to think all this hate is just some sort of jealous rage, which I don't understand.

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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I have no problem with KETO. I have problems with people lying about how KETO works and making hyperbolic claims about its effects.
    Now there we agree. I hate when people misrepresent things or straight out lie. However, that's not the case with DeLauer. He's CLEARLY not one of the keto-fantatics who claim calories don't count - DeLauer says yes they do. He's not claiming keto is some magic diet that will fix everything while eating as much as you want - he talks about the need for calorie deficit, intermittent fasting, working out, etc.

    I'm starting to wonder if you know anything about the guy, or whether you've ever even watched his videos or checked his claims. You clearly seem to believe a lot of things about him that aren't true, and dismiss his videos as garbage without any apparent knowledge of what you're talking about (the material he shares).

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    Originally Posted by KetoBob View Post
    Now there we agree. I hate when people misrepresent things or straight out lie. However, that's not the case with DeLauer. He's CLEARLY not one of the keto-fantatics who claim calories don't count - DeLauer says yes they do. He's not claiming keto is some magic diet that will fix everything while eating as much as you want - he talks about the need for calorie deficit, intermittent fasting, working out, etc.

    I'm starting to wonder if you know anything about the guy, or whether you've ever even watched his videos or checked his claims. You clearly seem to believe a lot of things about him that aren't true, and dismiss his videos as garbage without any apparent knowledge of what you're talking about (the material he shares).
    You don’t ‘need’ to do IF, for one.

    And also, any of the presumed advantages of KETO do NOT work for everyone... period. So when you have a dude talking about the benefits of fasting, KETO, etc across the board, whether its health wise or aesthetically, the broad brush just doesn’t work and it’s annoying when people claim it does.

    Plenty of people out there feel horrible on KETO, do not do well with any kind of fasting approach, etc.

    Furthermore, if you’re already lean and fit, I don’t see why you’d feel inclined to remove entire food groups at least almost entirely especially when certain foods which almost never fit into a KETO diet have proven health benefits.

    He also is trying (or tried), the carnivore diet which is freakin ridiculous.

    The dude is a celebrity... nothing more... he essentially adopts whatever is mainstream in KETO or Fasting, etc, and uses that for gaining views.

    Has he ever posted his blood work? Ever? Do we even know if he’s healthy? No, we don’t, so why buy into all this?

    Again, I’m not saying NOBODY would benefit from KETO, I’m just saying that he focused only on KETO and also makes silly claims about his own anti-carb BS trying to back it up with horrible info.

    You can find plenty of people on high carb diets with much better health markers than people on KETO, and vice versa.. he presents only a single side (keto) of the argument while ignoring all other studies that suggest otherwise.
    The power of carbs compels me!

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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    You don’t ‘need’ to do IF, for one.

    And also, any of the presumed advantages of KETO do NOT work for everyone... period. So when you have a dude talking about the benefits of fasting, KETO, etc across the board, whether its health wise or aesthetically, the broad brush just doesn’t work and it’s annoying when people claim it does.

    Plenty of people out there feel horrible on KETO, do not do well with any kind of fasting approach, etc.

    Furthermore, if you’re already lean and fit, I don’t see why you’d feel inclined to remove entire food groups at least almost entirely especially when certain foods which almost never fit into a KETO diet have proven health benefits.

    He also is trying (or tried), the carnivore diet which is freakin ridiculous.

    The dude is a celebrity... nothing more... he essentially adopts whatever is mainstream in KETO or Fasting, etc, and uses that for gaining views.

    Has he ever posted his blood work? Ever? Do we even know if he’s healthy? No, we don’t, so why buy into all this?

    Again, I’m not saying NOBODY would benefit from KETO, I’m just saying that he focused only on KETO and also makes silly claims about his own anti-carb BS trying to back it up with horrible info.

    You can find plenty of people on high carb diets with much better health markers than people on KETO, and vice versa.. he presents only a single side (keto) of the argument while ignoring all other studies that suggest otherwise.
    Don't play semantics games with me, or cop straw man arguments - it's not gonna work. No, you do not NEED to do intermittent fasting - but it is a useful technique that DeLauer does indeed recommend.

    As for painting with a broad brush, that's precisely what you're doing. "I don't like keto, and Thomas DeLauer does, so he's a hack and a moron". Keto works fine for most people. All the people I've known who've had problems with keto are generally not doing it right. Yes, you can eat "keto" and eat at McDonald's, just like Barry Sears argued in his Zone Diet that you can be "in the zone" eating at McDonald's. That doesn't make the diet healthy. It merely means it fits the definition of macros on those particular diets. I pity anyone doing keto on junk food like that. So before you can make those condemnations, we need to be clear about precisely what we're discussing. I also recall DeLauer talking about how some people can't fast for longer periods, or how some need more particular amount of carbs, etc. I've never heard him say that everyone must me keto. In fact, he repeatedly claims it's only one great tool amongst many.

    Your words - "If you're already lean and fit" - well, a lot of people are NOT lean and fit, and that's why they try going keto. As for "removing entire food groups almost entirely", that's nonsense and a straw man argument. I've been on the keto diet for awhile now and I eat plenty of carbs. I generally tend to hit about 20g a day, though I can go up to 150g or 200g without coming out of ketosis, or at the very worst just overnight. So that whole argument is a strawman. I eat plenty of vegetables and fruits while doing keto and still manage to stay within the 80/15/5 ratios (or very close to that). I have organic wild blueberries with my recovery shake in the morning, I have veggies with the other 1 or 2 meals I have each day. Usually a cup full. Strawman arguments don't cut it with me.

    What foods with "proven health benefits" don't "fit a keto diet"? I can eat virtually any fruit or vegetable on keto. I eat blueberries, strawberries, broccoli, carrots, onions, bell peppers, zucchini, cucumber, lettuce, mixed greens, tomatoes, etc, etc. I'm not missing out on anything.

    DeLauer tried the carnivore diet as an experiment. That's a sin? Last I checked, this was still a free country. Did you even bother to watch his video on carnivore diet? He did it as an EXPERIMENT. Note what he said - "Because we need to see what works for us." He encourages people to find their own answers. He says in that video that he's not a zealot for any particular diet. In that video he talks about how some people can't eat certain foods. So again, straw man argument. He's not advocating for carnivore diet.

    A celebrity? So what? That doesn't make him bad or dishonest or wrong. What is the problem with promoting himself and making himself successful? Sounds like jealousy to me. Personally, I find him inspiring, not intimidating or worthy of hate. The fact that he's on top of current trends such as IF and KETO doesn't make him an opportunist.

    I believe he has talked about his blood work. But is it required for people to post actual images of the paperwork for their blood work in order for them to not be considered "hacks and morons"? And if they did so, would your next complaint be "well, how do we know that's not fake paperwork...where is the doctor or lab who did the blood work to verify that what he's showing us is real?". People like you demand more, the more you're given. You just don't want to hear the truth.

    He is not focused "only on keto", and your claiming so proves to me that you have not watched his videos and don't know what you're talking about. He repeatedly in numerous videos has said that keto is just one tool amongst many, albeit a really good one. You claim he "makes silly claims about his own anti-carb BS trying to back it up with horrible info". Such as what, precisely? Give me an example of where he made a silly claim and used BS to back it up with bad info. Otherwise, you're just spitting into the wind.

    He does not ignore carbs. And yes, you can find people on high carb diets doing fine, as well as people on keto diets doing just fine. I did well on both, but better on keto. Again, that doesn't make keto bad, nor does it make DeLauer a fraud simply because he posts and endorses what he finds works. He doesn't say it's what everyone should or must do.

    I'm afraid your arguments aren't holding much water.
    Last edited by KetoBob; 05-21-2019 at 08:11 PM. Reason: Misspelling

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    ^have fun with that then
    The power of carbs compels me!

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    Yeah, that's what I thought. Can't win an argument about something you don't know anything about.

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    Originally Posted by KetoBob View Post
    Yeah, that's what I thought. Can't win an argument about something you don't know anything about.
    Moreso I don’t care enough to continue, and since we can both respond with “no, you’re wrong”, there’s no ‘winning’. So, carry on. I say you’re wrong, you say I’m wrong. Neat.
    The power of carbs compels me!

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