Why do some people object to UBI IF we cut down spending on other areas?

[OregonBrah]

1k per month to everyone would accomplish nothing for equality except to destroy the middle class and bring them down with the rest. The middle class don't have large savings. You devalue money like this and you will wipe out everything they have worked for.

[BraneyGumble]

Well, I'll just leave this here.

An actual experiment that failed, in Finland

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ost-employment

"Distributing free money to the unemployed improves their well-being, but doesn’t appear to have any significant impact on their job prospects. That’s according to the preliminary results of a landmark experiment in Finland, the first country in the world to trial a basic income at a national level.

The Nordic social welfare champion spent the last two years handing out 560 euros ($635) per month to a randomly selected group of 2,000 jobless people aged between 25 and 58. The basic aim was to explore new ways of distributing social security in a world where more workers are threatened by automation and fewer are likely to take on traditional nine-to-five jobs. The current system is seen as too bureaucratic and often dissuades people from taking on temporary or part-time work.

According to a preliminary assessment published on Friday by the social services agency Kela, the recipients of the monthly stipend spent on average about half a day more in employment per year than the control group."


"Olli Karkkainen, an economist at Nordea Bank Abp, found the results surprising.

“I had expected the basic income experiment to have a greater positive impact on employment because incentives for work were boosted so significantly,” he said in an interview.

Pirkko Mattila, Finland’s minister of social affairs and health, said that despite its success in providing useful data, “the basic income model developed for the experiment is not likely to be adopted as such for more extensive use.”

According to some estimates, a nationwide basic income would add around 5 percentage points to Finland’s public deficit relative to gross domestic product."



The Swiss have also rejected the idea

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36454060

"Swiss voters have overwhelmingly rejected a proposal to introduce a guaranteed basic income for all. Final results from Sunday's referendum showed that nearly 77% opposed the plan, with only 23% backing it.
The proposal had called for adults to be paid an unconditional monthly income, whether they worked or not. The supporters camp had suggested a monthly income of 2,500 Swiss francs (£1,755; $2,555) for adults and also SFr625 for each child. The amounts reflected the high cost of living in Switzerland. It is not clear how the plan would have affected people on higher salaries.

The supporters had also argued that since work was increasingly automated, fewer jobs were available for workers."

[BHall1991]

We will never have enough money for UBI, but AI and automation killing industries and laying off hundreds of thousands is also inevitable. So pick your poison.

Our economy is 20 trillion. We have the money or rather multinational cooperations do. We just need a better tax system (ie VAT) to see those dollars.

[BHall1991]

1k per month to everyone would accomplish nothing for equality except to destroy the middle class and bring them down with the rest. The middle class don't have large savings. You devalue money like this and you will wipe out everything they have worked for.

How does this devalue money at all?

[BHall1991]

Well, I'll just leave this here.

An actual experiment that failed, in Finland

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ost-employment

"Distributing free money to the unemployed improves their well-being, but doesn’t appear to have any significant impact on their job prospects. That’s according to the preliminary results of a landmark experiment in Finland, the first country in the world to trial a basic income at a national level.

The Nordic social welfare champion spent the last two years handing out 560 euros ($635) per month to a randomly selected group of 2,000 jobless people aged between 25 and 58. The basic aim was to explore new ways of distributing social security in a world where more workers are threatened by automation and fewer are likely to take on traditional nine-to-five jobs. The current system is seen as too bureaucratic and often dissuades people from taking on temporary or part-time work.

According to a preliminary assessment published on Friday by the social services agency Kela, the recipients of the monthly stipend spent on average about half a day more in employment per year than the control group."


"Olli Karkkainen, an economist at Nordea Bank Abp, found the results surprising.

“I had expected the basic income experiment to have a greater positive impact on employment because incentives for work were boosted so significantly,” he said in an interview.

Pirkko Mattila, Finland’s minister of social affairs and health, said that despite its success in providing useful data, “the basic income model developed for the experiment is not likely to be adopted as such for more extensive use.”

According to some estimates, a nationwide basic income would add around 5 percentage points to Finland’s public deficit relative to gross domestic product."



The Swiss have also rejected the idea

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36454060

"Swiss voters have overwhelmingly rejected a proposal to introduce a guaranteed basic income for all. Final results from Sunday's referendum showed that nearly 77% opposed the plan, with only 23% backing it.
The proposal had called for adults to be paid an unconditional monthly income, whether they worked or not. The supporters camp had suggested a monthly income of 2,500 Swiss francs (£1,755; $2,555) for adults and also SFr625 for each child. The amounts reflected the high cost of living in Switzerland. It is not clear how the plan would have affected people on higher salaries.

The supporters had also argued that since work was increasingly automated, fewer jobs were available for workers."

At least you are actually using real example however the Finland experiment was not UBI but rather funding for the unemployed. Why would you expect that sort of program to increase employment?

That's much more in line with our dated welfare system which also discourages work and productivity past a certain point.

A much better example would be Alaska where everyone gets it regardless of income or employment status.

[Austanian]

Because the cost is insanely expensive so much so that it is not achievable through cut backs nor additional taxes.

Because I object to paying people for "existing".

Because the people that need it most have already proven they are incapable of managing their money. If we are going to give them money to help feed their kids it should ONLY be allowed to be spent on food.

It's not the same at all because the majority of the money will actually go back into the economy not some useless government program. The other side of this is that the super rich do not pay their fair share of taxes. Jeff bezos will never, ever have a taxable event..

Basically how you think economics works...

[JUSA]

We spend $668 billion on welfare programs a year.

And with UBI, we'd likely end up spending more. Although, you left out medicare, which is simply welfare for the rich and old, but let's not even joke about politicians trying to take a single penny away from rich old people who vote in large blocks.

UBI is a joke, this country can't implement far simpler ideas, don't get Yanged on this one.

I'd prefer we cut off farm subsidies, bought healthy foods, which is something the Government got 100% wrong for decades, but actual healthy food (green leafy veggies, grass fed beef and eggs, etc) and gave everyone a supply of that every couple weeks if we're giving people money to exist. Let them exist on decent food and not processed sugar chit ramping up medical costs by billions, hundreds of them, with their type 2 diabetes fetish.

[BHall1991]

"Because the cost is insanely expensive so much so that it is not achievable through cut backs nor additional taxes."


Our economy is 20 trillion. We have the money. Within 5 years not having it will be more expensive. Also something people dont seem to understand is this inst some government program. Most of the money will be going back into the economy.



"Because I object to paying people for "existing"."


You aren't paying for it and you would be receiving it. It's amazing to me how many people will side against their own best interests on this.


"Because the people that need it most have already proven they are incapable of managing their money. If we are going to give them money to help feed their kids it should ONLY be allowed to be spent on food.."

Congrats you just described exactly what our current welfare system attempts to do. What you're failing to consider is that people are going to find loopholes. Such as buying large quantities of food and then selling the food to pawn shops in exchange for cash and then buying what they want anyway. Our welfare system is insanely flawed in that its capped and discourages work and productivity past a certain level.

Technology will be our enslavement ir our liberation. Please choose the right answer.

[jlick]

It's not the same at all because the majority of the money will actually go back into the economy not some useless government program. The other side of this is that the super rich do not pay their fair share of taxes. Jeff bezos will never, ever have a taxable event..

wrong. there's already so many examples of why this wouldn't work. like raising the minimum wage for example. everywhere that minimum wage is raised, unemployment also rises along with the cost of goods. the only thing UBI is good for is politicans buying political points with other people's money, and suckers like you and johnnydeppsoyboy thinking that this will be the solution to making your life better. i find it hilarious that you talk about jeff bezos. Amazon has made life better, more convenient and affordable for all americans, something that our modern day government simply hasn't done or will ever be able to do. We can have fresh produce delivered to our doors, for dirt cheap, at a fraction of the cost that it used to be. sub out produce for any other good. Amazon is a service that people want and desire because it is cheaper and more convenient than the alternatives. If anything, the government has the exact opposite effect on the economy that amazon does. take Obama care for example. what did that do to the average person? our premiums were RAISED. What about the gas tax her in california? our gas is now averaging 4.03$ a gallon and theres still pot holes everywhere and bridges that need major work. The government is a highly inefficient apparatus where as amazon strives on accomplishing things that the government never will be able to do.

Ohhh cry me a river, all taxes are redistribution of "your" money that's only made possible by taxes in the first place.

hilarious how liberals like you have no moral problems with spending other people's money. taxation is theft. it's pretty simple.

[Mark1T]

Mr. deep, since you fall for every bullshiit bait by candidates that promotes free stuff, I am assuming that you support all of these free programs that the presidential candidates are preaching. So, please tell us all how we can pay for all of these programs. Take your time.

The Green New Deal
Medicare for All
Reparations
Universal Basic Income
Senator Warren's $640 Billion Student Loan Cancellation

[BHall1991]

Basically how you think economics works...

I thinks that more accurate to how you think technology works. You live in ****ing Idaho you have 0 understand of what's coming technology and also little understanding of how the government, especially the private sector functions.

[miscinbro]

hilarious how liberals like you have no moral problems with spending other people's money. taxation is theft. it's pretty simple.

Find the country in the world with the lowest tax rate possible and move there then, I'm going to take a guess though that it's not so nice a place.

[hawkshade]

The misinformation in this thread is absolutely bonkers on UBI. To those that think your white-collar job isn't easily replaceable by AI, LMFAO. Doctors are flooding out of radiology because AI will soon replace 'em. Ain't no stopping this train.

[Mark1T]

I thinks that more accurate to how you think technology works. You live in ****ing Idaho you have 0 understand of what's coming technology and also little understanding of how the government, especially the private sector functions.

Negged for inferring intelligence is contingent upon proximity. You are proving why you are red with every post.

[jlick]

Find the country in the world with the lowest tax rate possible and move there then, I'm going to take a guess though that it's not so nice a place.

No thanks bro. I'm making America Great Again.

[miscinbro]

No thanks bro. I'm making America Great Again.

But you want zero taxes? Since Mexico obviously isn't paying for the wall we're going to build is wholly through donations?

[Cleveland33]

Technology will be our enslavement ir our liberation. Please choose the right answer.

I just said all these UBI threads were starting to sound like bad sci-fi novels...

[BraneyGumble]

At least you are actually using real example however the Finland experiment was not UBI but rather funding for the unemployed. Why would you expect that sort of program to increase employment?

That's much more in line with our dated welfare system which also discourages work and productivity past a certain point.

A much better example would be Alaska where everyone gets it regardless of income or employment status.

You keep contradicting yourself again and again.

The Alaskan Permanent Fund is a handout in exchange for/tied to oil revenues, btw also messing up the environment.

Also:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kweilin.../#48c42baf7df0

https://www.businessinsider.com/more...-report-2019-2

[jeffl1980]

This. AI will soon take over

It's difficult to have these serious conversations with misc blowhards

Just stop......we are no where near AI taking over.

[jlick]

But you want zero taxes? Since Mexico obviously isn't paying for the wall we're going to build is wholly through donations?

Funny that the wall got more donations in a few days than UBI would ever get from the american people unless we were forced to pay it.

[BHall1991]

wrong. there's already so many examples of why this wouldn't work. like raising the minimum wage for example. everywhere that minimum wage is raised, unemployment also rises along with the cost of goods. the only thing UBI is good for is politicans buying political points with other people's money, and suckers like you and johnnydeppsoyboy thinking that this will be the solution to making your life better. i find it hilarious that you talk about jeff bezos. Amazon has made life better, more convenient and affordable for all americans, something that our modern day government simply hasn't done or will ever be able to do. We can have fresh produce delivered to our doors, for dirt cheap, at a fraction of the cost that it used to be. sub out produce for any other good. Amazon is a service that people want and desire because it is cheaper and more convenient than the alternatives. If anything, the government has the exact opposite effect on the economy that amazon does. take Obama care for example. what did that do to the average person? our premiums were RAISED. What about the gas tax her in california? our gas is now averaging 4.03$ a gallon and theres still pot holes everywhere and bridges that need major work. The government is a highly inefficient apparatus where as amazon strives on accomplishing things that the government never will be able to do.

hilarious how liberals like you have no moral problems with spending other people's money. taxation is theft. it's pretty simple.

I'm not liberal at at and I'm against most government programs. The reason I'm for UBI is that its cutting out the extremely costly and inefficient middle man that is our Government as you pointed out. Stop giving money to these programs and just give it directly to the people and allow the market to decide what's valuable.

Equating raising the minimum wage to UBI is laughable. I'm not for raising the minimum wage for the reasons you stated. UBI will not increase the cost of consumer goods since it's not affecting any part of the supply chain.

The reason I brought up Jeff Bezos was as an example of how we have the money we just cant touch it with our current tax laws. In our country ultra rich Americans and corporations are paying very little in the way of taxes (relative to earnings and the tax rate they fall into).

[miscinbro]

Funny that the wall got more donations in a few days than UBI would ever get from the american people unless we were forced to pay it.

Nice dodge - clearly you’re ok with taxes. You pretend to have some principle behind it but really it’s just you only want taxes for things you want.

[BHall1991]

You keep contradicting yourself again and again.

The Alaskan Permanent Fund is a handout in exchange for/tied to oil revenues, btw also messing up the environment.

Also:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kweilin.../#48c42baf7df0

https://www.businessinsider.com/more...-report-2019-2

The reason I brought up is cause it a universal payment. Far closer to UBI than the Finland experiment. Wheres the contradiction?

[Austanian]

I think it is safe to say we would have more luck turning a rock into a rocket scientist than convincing bhall and johny to do the math.

BRB GDP is 20 million so therefore we can afford 3 trillion in extra federal spending per year... The spending will stimulate the economy and everyone will benefit and no one will pay for it.

[BHall1991]

Just stop......we are no where near AI taking over.

AI is here. Not sure what you mean by taking over but its here and is going to change many industries

[menseks]

According to Yang, everyone qualifies... it is what makes UBI universal. There are currently 328 millions citizens. Of those citizens 80% of the population would be eligible. The other 20% being underage. That leaves 260 million qualified recipients. Yang also proposed a UBI of 1k per month (12k a year).

260m X 12k = 3.12 trillion. That is before the cost of agency / oversight.

328mil is the total population
-11.3 million illegals
-22.6 legal non-citizens
-2.3 in prison
--------------------------------
=291.8mil -> @75% adults by 2020 -> 218.8mil.

This is an opt-in program. you have to sign up for it. accounting for miscers who wish to not receive the money + rich people who won't bother + incidentals, let's say we shave off another 10%.

final total is 196.9mil. = $2.36tril

2.36 trillion
-0.5 cutting existing welfare/program overhead
-0.8 VAT
-0.6 in taxes on economic growth from new small business/employment
-0.2 due to decreased homeless/incarceration/hospital visits
-0.2 from military
-0.01 from foreign aid to places like israel
-------------------------------------------------
$50bil unaccounted.

that's kind of a drop in the bucket in terms of govt spend. i'm not saying this thing is fully fleshed out or even close, but looking at it generally, it could work.

[BraneyGumble]

The reason I brought up is cause it a universal payment. Far closer to UBI than the Finland experiment. Wheres the contradiction?

Your question after my post where I copied the failed experiment in Finland:

"Why would you expect that sort of program to increase employment?"

From Yang's Q&A you've linked:

"UBI encourages people to find work. Many current welfare programs take away benefits when recipients find work, sometimes leaving them financially worse off than before they were employed. UBI is for all adults, regardless of employment status, so recipients are free to seek additional income, which most everyone does."

UBI increases bargaining power for workers because a guaranteed, unconditional income gives them leverage to say no to exploitative wages and abusive working conditions. Employers can’t push workers around as much.

UBI increases entrepreneurship because it provides for basic needs in the early lean days of a company and acts as a safety net if the business fails. It also gives you more consumers to sell to because everyone has more disposable income. The Roosevelt Institute found that a UBI would create 4.6 million jobs and grow the economy by 12 percent continuously. UBI would be the greatest catalyst for new jobs, entrepreneurship, and creativity we have ever seen."

Besides that, the whole "it would go back to the economy" didn't work with the raising of guaranteed minimum wages.

Last but not least: mentioning a 10% VAT as if it were nothing is just delusional.

[BHall1991]

I think it is safe to say we would have more luck turning a rock into a rocket scientist than convincing bhall and johny to do the math.

BRB GDP is 20 million so therefore we can afford 3 trillion in extra federal spending per year... The spending will stimulate the economy and everyone will benefit and no one will pay for it.

LOL GDP is 20 trillion.. 20>3 so yes we could pay for it but that's besides the point. We currently spend 1.3 trillion and welfare and entitlement programs. There would also be savings in many areas such as prisons and medical care.
Also again it's not like this money its -3 trillion. Most of it would be circulating back into and through the economy.

[BHall1991]

Your question after my post where I copied the failed experiment in Finland:

"Why would you expect that sort of program to increase employment?"

From Yang's Q&A you've linked:

"UBI encourages people to find work. Many current welfare programs take away benefits when recipients find work, sometimes leaving them financially worse off than before they were employed. UBI is for all adults, regardless of employment status, so recipients are free to seek additional income, which most everyone does."

UBI increases bargaining power for workers because a guaranteed, unconditional income gives them leverage to say no to exploitative wages and abusive working conditions. Employers can’t push workers around as much.

UBI increases entrepreneurship because it provides for basic needs in the early lean days of a company and acts as a safety net if the business fails. It also gives you more consumers to sell to because everyone has more disposable income. The Roosevelt Institute found that a UBI would create 4.6 million jobs and grow the economy by 12 percent continuously. UBI would be the greatest catalyst for new jobs, entrepreneurship, and creativity we have ever seen."

Besides that, the whole "it would go back to the economy" didn't work with the raising of guaranteed minimum wages.

Last but not least: mentioning a 10% VAT as if it were nothing is just delusional.

I'm saying why would you expect the Finland program to increase employment when they only gave it to the unemployed?

Also UBI is far from the same thing as increasing the minimum wage.

[hawkshade]

UBI is guaranteed to devalue all savings and destroy the middle class.

Good luck with retiring comfortably...

How will it devalue savings and destroy the middle class? What middle class? More than 40% of adults can't cover a $400 emergency expense. What savings do people have?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/22/fed-...y-expense.html

The better question is why would you be FOR ubi?

I don't want your free handouts to make me dependant on your bs. Honestly I'd rather starve, it would force me to find my own solution.



same premise here with you people

Why wouldn't you want an extra $1000? Put it into savings, spend it on your car, or other luxury you have to stimulate the economy.

How will it make you dependent? Are you going to quit your job and live off of 12k a year?

UBI doesn't even make sense. Poor people get enough subsidies and exemptions from the government. The extra money they'll receive from UBI will just go towards frivolous spending. There are only a select few who truly will benefit from UBI, but I rather support the majority rather than the minority.

You either get the UBI or the government benefits, not both. Again, wrong about this majority vs minority bs. https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015...losing-ground/

79% of people fall in the poor to middle class spectrum. 79% of people in the USA will benefit from that extra 12k a year whether it is to pay for your babysitter or for a vacation. We can assume the 21% of people that are above middle class don't actually need this money.

A 10% VAT on top of all existing sales taxes? Hard pass...


Edit: this is assuming that the institution of a UBI wouldn't destroy the value of savings and replace the middle class with a bunch of perpetual poors... which it will.

You will receive $1000 a month. This comes out to a net gain, will dig further for this source. And to your edit, see above.

Immigration into the united states is already out of control, you don't think free money would compound the issue even further?

You must be a US citizen to receive UBI. You read?

I agree. I want it since I am unemployed and it will pay for my heroine and crack. I might even have enough to pay for a nicer box I live out of and maybe some socks.

Thanks for the thread, OP. My time is up at the library.

Da fuq? "

"Use of most drugs other than marijuana has stabilized over the past decade or has declined."
The amount of people using those drugs are like 1-4% of the population. Nice try bob.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publicatio...ionwide-trends

Because when UBI is still not enough to feed LaQuisha and her 5 kids they will try and bring back other entitlement programs and it will explode.

We can’t even fund social security properly let alone an ongoing fund.

What about the other consequences such as increased immigration specifically to LEECH off the system when it goes into place?

It is UBI or entitlements. You read policies or just shout through your echo chambers? Again with this immigration ****, YOU MUST BE A US CITIZEN TO RECIEVE UBI.

because inflation exist. There is a reason why 100k income in San Francisco is considered poor lol

No new money is being printed. WHat inflation are you talking about? If people aren't forced to move into bigger cities and instead are given money to boost their local ecomonies, maybe the rent in the those big cities would even go down.

Because I'm not a poor peasant that needs a handout from the government. How about they take $1000 less from my paycheck?

Can't argue against this ME ME ME attitude. *shrug*

People at my job right now will only work part time because they don't want to lose their free food stamps. This is what happens when you give freeloaders free ****. They want more free **** and don't want to work. All of these government programs have done nothing but create a lazy, entitled generation.

If they receive UBI, they wouldn't have to abide by this having to work part-time bs to keep their benefits. It's not that they're lazy. Honesty they're smarter than you are. At the end of the day they are making as much as you but working less. Also dude before gave you a counterpoint so I'll defer to him.