Why do some people object to UBI IF we cut down spending on other areas?

[BraneyGumble]

I'm saying why would you expect the Finland program to increase employment when they only gave it to the unemployed?

Also UBI is far from the same thing as increasing the minimum wage.

Again, dodging the "who would pay for it" part.

Especially the 10% VAT.

"Bro, it's just 10% bro, trust me, people made studies to support my policies, they said it was cool".

[Mark1T]

Da fuq? "

"Use of most drugs other than marijuana has stabilized over the past decade or has declined."
The amount of people using those drugs are like 1-4% of the population. Nice try bob.

I was being 50% facetious and 50% serious. But, it looks like you and any other person supporting UBI are just looking for a free ride. It has proven to not work IRL and on paper.

[jeffl1980]

AI is here. Not sure what you mean by taking over but its here and is going to change many industries

Have you ever been into an OEM or contract manufacture? I've been in the manufacturing, medical and military R&D for almost 20 years. What real life experience do you have?

[hawkshade]

I was being 50% facetious and 50% serious. But, it looks like you and any other person supporting UBI are just looking for a free ride. It has proven to not work IRL and on paper.

What facts do you have to support your opinion on this free ride stuff? Facts don't care about your feelings breh. I'm pursuing a graduate degree in data science. *bert stare*

Please provide this proof you speak of. I'm not against counter arguments, again to me it's about weighing the pros and cons of these policies. So far I am for it from all the research I've done.

[Mark1T]

What facts do you have to support your opinion on this free ride stuff? Facts don't care about your feelings breh. I'm pursuing a graduate degree in data science. *bert stare*

Please provide this proof you speak of. I'm not against counter arguments, again to me it's about weighing the pros and cons of these policies. So far I am for it from all the research I've done.

I don't need proof. It is my opinion of being in business for 20+ years and owning my company.

There are people who work hard to make a living and who have paid their debts such as their student loans in full.

Then, there are people who want to live off the shoulders of others. Those are the free-loaders.

[jdo1]

So if everyone got 1k a month would this end homelessness? The answer is going to be no. You can give money all you want and that individual will still end up being broke unless they change their ways. If you donated money to a homeless person it still won't solve their issue because they will not go out and look for a job but rather be dependent on others.

[Austanian]

How will it devalue savings and destroy the middle class? What middle class? More than 40% of adults can't cover a $400 emergency expense. What savings do people have?
Inflation. At minimum this would increase the Federal budget 2.5 Trillion dollars per year. More likely in the 3-3.5 trillion. This will need to be collected via a vat (passed on to consumer exponentially to the consumer where the exponent is the number of levels in supply chain causing a sharp increase in the cost of goods.) Beyond that you would have currency devaluation. The lack of savings is not a function of income, but a function of behavior. Those people managed to find the money for a $600 dollar phone every two years and a car payment.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/22/fed-...y-expense.html

Why wouldn't you want an extra $1000? Put it into savings, spend it on your car, or other luxury you have to stimulate the economy.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. For me to get an extra $1,000 it has to be taken from somewhere else. While it will stimulate the economy it is mathematically impossible for it to stimulate as much as it hurts.


You either get the UBI or the government benefits, not both. Again, wrong about this majority vs minority bs. https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015...losing-ground/

And everyone who is not already receiving more than 12k per year in government benefits will take it because they will be paying for it.

79% of people fall in the poor to middle class spectrum. 79% of people in the USA will benefit from that extra 12k a year whether it is to pay for your babysitter or for a vacation. We can assume the 21% of people that are above middle class don't actually need this money.

Yet everything they already purchase will go up in cost. It is like trying to remove poverty by increasing minimum wage to $100 per hour. The ultra poor may benefit, but everyone else will get fuked.

You will receive $1000 a month. This comes out to a net gain, will dig further for this source. And to your edit, see above.

The money to pay for the $1,000 a month has to come from somewhere.... It is also mathematically impossible for it to be a net gain.

You must be a US citizen to receive UBI. You read?

yet one party is for legalization of illegals... the same party of UBI.

It is UBI or entitlements. You read policies or just shout through your echo chambers? Again with this immigration ****, YOU MUST BE A US CITIZEN TO RECIEVE UBI.
If you are for legalizing illegals you are giving it to illegals just with one step in between.

No new money is being printed. WHat inflation are you talking about? If people aren't forced to move into bigger cities and instead are given money to boost their local ecomonies, maybe the rent in the those big cities would even go down.
Money HAS to be printed because the cost of the project exceeds possible revenues.

Can't argue against this ME ME ME attitude. *shrug*

So selfish to think that people are entiteled to the fruits of their labor.

If they receive UBI, they wouldn't have to abide by this having to work part-time bs to keep their benefits. It's not that they're lazy. Honesty they're smarter than you are. At the end of the day they are making as much as you but working less. Also dude before gave you a counterpoint so I'll defer to him.

so by taking someone else money they are smarter than me... I guess I need to be ultra smart and start robbing people.

Responses above. Not sure if you are just a young kid or have swallowed the koolaid, but I would encourage you to look into the economic graphs for government actions. SOMEONE is always paying and nothing is ever free. The cost may not be apparent, but it is always there.

[Austanian]

328mil is the total population
-11.3 million illegals
-22.6 legal non-citizens
-2.3 in prison
--------------------------------
=291.8mil -> @75% adults by 2020 -> 218.8mil.

This is an opt-in program. you have to sign up for it. accounting for miscers who wish to not receive the money + rich people who won't bother + incidentals, let's say we shave off another 10%.

final total is 196.9mil. = $2.36tril

2.36 trillion
-0.5 cutting existing welfare/program overhead
-0.8 VAT
-0.6 in taxes on economic growth from new small business/employment
-0.2 due to decreased homeless/incarceration/hospital visits
-0.2 from military
-0.01 from foreign aid to places like israel
-------------------------------------------------
$50bil unaccounted.

that's kind of a drop in the bucket in terms of govt spend. i'm not saying this thing is fully fleshed out or even close, but looking at it generally, it could work.

We have already went over the realistic numbers and why in the other half dozen of these discussion threads. I am not going to keep responding when you are incapable of addressing points.

[BHall1991]

Have you ever been into an OEM or contract manufacture? I've been in the manufacturing, medical and military R&D for almost 20 years. What real life experience do you have?

I deal with government contractors, government agencies and tech companies every day.
Not sure what that has to do with AI. AI is here though and while it isn't general purpose yet its damn close.

[menseks]

I don't need proof. It is my opinion of being in business for 20+ years and owning my company.

There are people who work hard to make a living and who have paid their debts such as their student loans in full.

Then, there are people who want to live off the shoulders of others. Those are the free-loaders.

i respect your thinking. i laughed off ubi in concept previously too. fuk free loaders. but think about it like this:

1. as a small business owner, how much in deductions did you take last year? why should us business owners be entitled to free money against our taxes?

2. what if one of your hardworking employees has a devastating family event that required more money than he earns/saved? if he came to you in earnest and asked for $5k to help out his sick wife, would you do it?

3. do you donate to charity? i see you have a blood drive link in your sig. i love it, but why do people deserve free blood? what about the guy who drove drunk and hit a tree? gangbangers who shoot each other up? do they deserve the blood?

i'm not putting your views down. i, in fact held your views as recently as a year ago. but when i was posed with these types of questions by a friend, it actually made me rethink some of my values. i was spending so much time hating on a policy because of 15% of the scumbags who would take advantage, that i forgot that about the 90% of the people it would actually help. just food for thought bruh.

not looking to change your mind. but it did change mine...given we get hard numbers from Yang on how he plans to fund the thing.

[DrWilliam]

Yeah because people will use that extra $1,000 to better themselves and totally wouldn't use it on drugs/alcohol

****ing lol at these naive people who believe in UBI

[Cleveland33]

i respect your thinking. i laughed off ubi in concept previously too. fuk free loaders. but think about it like this:

1. as a small business owner, how much in deductions did you take last year? why should us business owners be entitled to free money against our taxes?

2. what if one of your hardworking employees has a devastating family event that required more money than he earns/saved? if he came to you in earnest and asked for $5k to help out his sick wife, would you do it?

3. do you donate to charity? i see you have a blood drive link in your sig. i love it, but why do people deserve free blood? what about the guy who drove drunk and hit a tree? gangbangers who shoot each other up? do they deserve the blood?

i'm not putting your views down. i, in fact held your views as recently as a year ago. but when i was posed with these types of questions by a friend, it actually made me rethink some of my values. i was spending so much time hating on a policy because of 15% of the scumbags who would take advantage, that i forgot that about the 90% of the people it would actually help. just food for thought bruh.

not looking to change your mind. but it did change mine...given we get hard numbers from Yang on how he plans to fund the thing.

Big difference between willfully giving and having something taken from you.

[BHall1991]

Yeah because people will use that extra $1,000 to better themselves and totally wouldn't use it on drugs/alcohol

****ing lol at these naive people who believe in UBI

You're naive if you think the majority of people would use it on drugs and alcohol. Yes plenty of people would but so what, why should the many be punished for the few.
It's funny how many people instantly reject the idea and throw out blanket statements like this.

Say it happens, what would you use the money on?

[Cleveland33]

Say it happens, what would you use the money on?

it won't

[BHall1991]

Big difference between willfully giving and having something taken from you.

Yes.. UBI is the former.

[BHall1991]

it won't

I'm saying this as a reference point to show that most people would probably spend it in a similar manner to him.

Either way UBI will be inevitable. The question is when.

[Cleveland33]

I'm saying this as a reference point to show that most people would probably spend it in a similar manner to him.

Either way UBI will be inevitable. The question is when.

The answer is not in anyone's current lifetime

[BHall1991]

The answer is not in anyone's current lifetime

Okay grandpa..
Technology operates on a curve for the most part. Just think of how far computers and cellphones have come in a decade. With AI and automaton millions upon millions of workers will be displaced in 5 years. What's funny about this concept is extremly weathly and intelligent people like Elon Musk, Larry Ellison and Andrew Yang are for it cause they understand that people like you will need it to continue to have buying power and decent living conditions yet the ignorant and middle class reject it.

[Cleveland33]

Okay grandpa..
Technology operates on a curve for the most part. Just think of how far computers and cellphones have come in a decade. With AI and automaton millions upon millions of workers will be displaced in 5 years. What's funny about this concept is extremly weathly and intelligent people like Elon Musk, Larry Ellison and Andrew Yang are for it cause they understand that people like you will need it to continue to have buying power and decent living conditions yet the ignorant and middle class reject it.

Millions in five years? No.

My job won't be automated.

[DrWilliam]

You're naive if you think the majority of people would use it on drugs and alcohol. Yes plenty of people would but so what, why should the many be punished for the few.
It's funny how many people instantly reject the idea and throw out blanket statements like this.

Say it happens, what would you use the money on?

Lots of people make extra money beyond what they actually need to survive and spent the excess on stupid chit rather than saving/investing. In fact I'd say the majority of people.

The people who would actually put this to good use are the minority IMO

I make around $20k a month so I imagine I'd just save the extra $1k up for my next investment, like I do all my money

[BHall1991]

Millions in five years? No.

My job won't be automated.

Definitely. Just look at how many malls and retail stores have closed already.

What do you do?

[Cleveland33]

Definitely. Just look at how many malls and retail stores have closed already.

What do you do?

Yes but they weren't lost to automation.

I purchase things - including some of our automation.

[Austanian]

Lots of people make extra money beyond what they actually need to survive and spent the excess on stupid chit rather than saving/investing. In fact I'd say the majority of people.

The people who would actually put this to good use are the minority IMO

I make around $20k a month so I imagine I'd just save the extra $1k up for my next investment, like I do all my money

You wouldn't have any extra money.

Every product you purchase would increase at minimum 10%. Probably 13-15% though because companies operate off of margins and not raw profit.

Assuming you spend 10k per month of goods your 1k is gone and then some.

This is before we go into currency devaluation because the VAT and cuts in spending is not capable of funding the UBI proposal.

[Cleveland33]

You wouldn't have any extra money.

Every product you purchase would increase at minimum 10%. Probably 13-15% though because companies operate off of margins and not raw profit.

Assuming you spend 10k per month of goods your 1k is gone and then some.

This is before we go into currency devaluation because the VAT and cuts in spending is not capable of funding the UBI proposal.

it'll never sink in - they're too far gone into their utopian fantasy

[BHall1991]

Yes but they weren't lost to automation.

I purchase things - including some of our automation.

Indirectly yes. It's not like there was a retail worker and now there is a robot(although this is what will happen in fast food and some restaurants), no it's some massive company like Amazon that uses automation and robots as well as economies of scale to set price points that retail stores cant compete with. Technology as a whole is cutting out a lot of middlemanish jobs. Which is what your job sounds like tbh.

[jamalfudge]

Think of what happened to servers' wages when employers were allowed to consider tips as a part of their regular wage. Then imagine something similar happening to EVERYONE.

[BigBallsMcgee]

i dont think giving people free money for nothing will do anything good in the long run

[Junsuiakai]

So trump already lost 2020?

Prices of everything will go up
More homeless will be created
More crime will be created

In theory 1000 extra a month would be amazing for a lot of people but there are too many people who will take complete advantage as they already do with welfare programs.

You guys are living in a fantasy. Earn your money. It feels a lot better than being handed it.

[Mark1T]

i respect your thinking. i laughed off ubi in concept previously too. fuk free loaders. but think about it like this:

1. as a small business owner, how much in deductions did you take last year? why should us business owners be entitled to free money against our taxes?

Small business deductions have always been a part of owning a business and yes, I would not change anything about it currently. It is what drives our economy and what incentivizes innovation and growth.

2. what if one of your hardworking employees has a devastating family event that required more money than he earns/saved? if he came to you in earnest and asked for $5k to help out his sick wife, would you do it?

I pay for my employee's health insurance 100%. So, for this scenario, the wife would be covered. No reason to ask me for $5000. I hired each employee at a certain salary that I and they agree to. Nothing more and nothing less, except for raises and bonuses. I am not a bank.

3. do you donate to charity? i see you have a blood drive link in your sig. i love it, but why do people deserve free blood? what about the guy who drove drunk and hit a tree? gangbangers who shoot each other up? do they deserve the blood?

Yes, I do donate to charity. The analogy of giving blood vs UBI is not accurate and not a good analogy.

i'm not putting your views down. i, in fact held your views as recently as a year ago. but when i was posed with these types of questions by a friend, it actually made me rethink some of my values. i was spending so much time hating on a policy because of 15% of the scumbags who would take advantage, that i forgot that about the 90% of the people it would actually help. just food for thought bruh.

I look at the economy as a whole and not merely in my business world. We are taxed enough. UBI would contribute to economic damage and as a business owner, unless I am forced to, I will not participate. It is a slap in the face with disrespect for the people who have worked hard for what they have and who provide jobs and who contribute to society, as opposed to those who want free stuff. UBI like Medicare for All, is a step toward socialism. People want free everything.

not looking to change your mind. but it did change mine...given we get hard numbers from Yang on how he plans to fund the thing.

I have not listened much to Yang and I am afraid of any liberal becoming President, as I believe they would place our national security at great risk like Obama did not under-funding our military simply because he hated the military and disrespected them. Many liberal citizens support the military like here, but our politicians are different.

**If Yang is so great, instead of putting that money toward a black hole like UBI, if we are going to go there, why not put that money toward an answer to healthcare. Not Medicare for All, but a better idea that involves the insurance companies, maintaining all of those jobs.

[Cleveland33]

Indirectly yes. It's not like there was a retail worker and now there is a robot(although this is what will happen in fast food and some restaurants), no it's some massive company like Amazon that uses automation and robots as well as economies of scale to set price points that retail stores cant compete with. Technology as a whole is cutting out a lot of middlemanish jobs. Which is what your job sounds like tbh.

That's fine - but my job is shown to be net zero, in that I can deliver more savings than my salary and benefits. Also are actively looking to add employees to our location, not reduce and that resulted in two machines being replaced by human employees in the last few years. Analysis is also showing we are pretty much topped out on automation as are assembly lines move so slow, there is little to no benefit to automate.

ETA: my team isn't going to buy the machine that replaces us