Update - 4 months and 9 lbs into gaining phase

[gipper53]

I am skeptical that would make much of a difference because increased body fat doesn’t make you stronger. But I am just guessing because the extra calories/carbs may give more energy? I started off with an estimated 200 calorie per day surplus and am now at 250 per day. I say estimated because I am calculating it as close as I can but our daily TDEE varies quite a bit so even accurate calculations are at best estimates.

I have no scientific knowledge to back it up, but I'd have to think there is something to it or so many power lifters wouldn't be...well...fat guys

[OldFartTom]

Not sure if increasing fat when you're already fat gives any strength, but adding a little fat when skinny helps the OHP and bench either as absolute strength or strength/weight. Conversely when cutting most people find those 2 lifts hit harder than squat/DL for example

As an anecdote: Don Rheinhoudt https://www.jtsstrength.com/3-all-time-badasses-part-3/ edit: oddly the pic at top of article is Don but he's not described there

[Payton1221]

I had people tell me that I would see a huge difference in strength after starting the surplus but in all honesty I have not.

Perhaps they were thinking that you'd regain much of what you temporarily lost (albeit, perhaps not all of it) when you returned to maintenance or maintenance+ calories. As for myself (during my first attempts at bulking), I always got stronger but never in a "huge" way. In fact, I think it was Martin Berkhan who has ratios of strength gained for weight gained as a rule-of-thumb as to if the weight gained is much/most muscle or not, and a 3:1 to 5:1 ratio comes to mind. If your bench goes up 20 pounds while your bodyweight has only gone up 5 (for example), then you've likely gained a good deal of muscle. Note that this rule-of-thumb should only be enacted after the usual rebound in some strength immediately following a return to higher calories.

Back to my "bulks," they were often a pound-for-pound increase. Adding 10 lbs of bodyweight added ~10 lbs to my bench. Not surprisingly, when I dieted off most or all of the weight that I'd gained, I was no bigger and also no stronger than I was when I started.

[tblodg15]

Perhaps they were thinking that you'd regain much of what you temporarily lost (albeit, perhaps not all of it) when you returned to maintenance or maintenance+ calories.

I never lost any strength. I started lifting right when I started my weight loss and continued to gain strength over the entire year and-a-half plus of cutting. The last 6 months or so the strength gain was REAL slow as in only 1 or 2 more reps but I never lost any strength while losing 65 lbs due to my beginner or detrained status.

Some people have assumed I am still regaining previous strength and size but I have surpassed my strength levels and muscle mass from when I lifted before. But I only lifted in high school so it’s not like I made progress as a young adult with proper nutrition back then.

when I dieted off most or all of the weight that I'd gained, I was no bigger and also no stronger than I was when I started.

Bummer!

[Payton1221]

Some people have assumed I am still regaining previous strength and size but I have surpassed my strength levels and muscle mass from when I lifted before. But I only lifted in high school so it’s not like I made progress as a young adult with proper nutrition back then.

That's the difference between us as I've lifted essentially non-stop since ~17 years of age. Now there have been seasons when I have been more serious and seasons where it was just a bare bones, minimalistic type program, but I think that I've stayed so close to MY natural limit that approaches like bulk and cut essentially don't apply. You probably realize this, but I mistakenly thought those "maximum natural size" calculators was for everyone but for they're really for the trainees on the far right side of the bell curve of genetic potential. Not surprisingly from a statistical standpoint, I'm more "average."

[induced_drag]

Not sure if increasing fat when you're already fat gives any strength, but adding a little fat when skinny helps the OHP and bench either as absolute strength or strength/weight. Conversely when cutting most people find those 2 lifts hit harder than squat/DL for example

As an anecdote: Don Rheinhoudt https://www.jtsstrength.com/3-all-time-badasses-part-3/ edit: oddly the pic at top of article is Don but he's not described there

Yes, getting fatter makes you stronger...with diminishing returns of course. Fat does many things. It helps with physically putting force against other parts of your body. Eg...coming out of the hole. It also takes up inter-muscular space. Much like the cell volumizing properties of creatine, inter-muscular fat makes you strong. Being, and staying >10%, unless you were born that way will, have a permanent negative effect on ones strength. Once you diet over and over and hardern you muscles, that fat within the muscle is hard to get back. Your gut pick it up first

I had people tell me that I would see a huge difference in strength after starting the surplus but in all honesty I have not

Several reasons people say this

-They are not really pushing far on the strength curve. Read they are relatively weak anyway in context of course.
-They never really diet down too lean so it is not having a large negative effect

I never lost any strength. I started lifting right when I started my weight loss and continued to gain strength over the entire year and-a-half plus of cutting. The last 6 months or so the strength gain was REAL slow as in only 1 or 2 more reps but I never lost any strength while losing 65 lbs due to my beginner or detrained status.

I gained strength in my first real cut coming back to the gym. That is because I basically a 'newb' coming back and I also had the benefit of muscle memory. I also gained LBM in a deficit.

After 3-4 years of this, come back and say you dont lose strength. Not going to happen.

but I mistakenly thought those "maximum natural size" calculators was for everyone but for they're really for the trainees on the far right side of the bell curve of genetic potential. Not surprisingly from a statistical standpoint, I'm more "average."

Exactly. Bulk/cut only works for so long. I am well past the point where there is any benefit. It took me almost 2 years (2 bulk/cut cycles) and a total body swing of approx 180 lbs. Gaining 30 lbs only to lose it all again and be at the same place 8 months later with no real gains. Done 3 times over, I realized I am tapped out.

You are also correct on those 'calculators'. They are based on the stats of Mr Americas and top level bodybuilders over the years. For some reason people forget how strong genes and expression of said genes will have the largest impact on your overall mass. We can lean against the curve a little but you are not moving it to any real amount. "It is what it is" if it ever applied. Good news is your "best" you is still better than you ever would have been before. And just as we all are not shedding tears about not being 7'4 so we can play in the NBA, we ought to understand that all we can hope to be is the 'best" us we can.

[tblodg15]

After 3-4 years of this, come back and say you dont lose strength. Not going to happen.

Exactly, hence why I said “due to my beginning/detrained status”. For me it won’t even take 3-4 years starting at 49.

[grubman]

but I mistakenly thought those "maximum natural size" calculators was for everyone but for they're really for the trainees on the far right side of the bell curve of genetic potential. Not surprisingly from a statistical standpoint, I'm more "average."

Those calculators have me at 5’7” 175 at 10% BF.

HA!

This is my second go round, and both times, after 8 years, I was at about 160 at 15%ish.

Most people seem to agree those calculators are off 20-30 pounds for “normal” people.

Edit: I probably DO have another 10 pounds of muscle in my, if I dedicated myself 100%...but that’s not going to happen.

[induced_drag]

I exceeded Casey Butts calculator slightly when still natural.

Using 12%bf as my number his max (depleted) for me was 184 w/ a max bulked (which I am assuming means carbed up) at 193. Both of those are at 12% bf.

I was a legit 195 and was probably below 12% I hydro-d at 9%, but I looked like 15. Shredded legs and still semi-soft midsection. Still full abs but again, a fat distribution thing.

I also was bigger in biceps (which could have been just the differences of measuring cold.

calc biceps 16.9 actual 18.25"
Calc neck 16.5 actual 17"


I was also about 1" bigger in quads and chest, but I am guessing it was becasue I was measuring w/ a pump.


I am bigger now but no longer natural so it really does not matter. The point is I have seen countless people get called out using these calcs as 'evidence', or others that set their goals based on them. Both are silly ideas. Although I exceeded his predictions in some areas, I am in no way a Mr Universe caliber physique. There is something to be said about how we are all put together. If I were blessed with a 28" waist, well then I might have had a totally different look.

Getting back to topic, I did not stop 'bulk cutting' until I was damn sure it would not yeild any more progress. Because it is BY FAR the best way to progress if there is progress is to be had. Guys will over eat a little and say it did not work. They dont get it....I spent almost 2 full years in the process of figuring out bulk/cut was no longer productive. I had spent the past 6 years prior bulking and cutting continually. NEVER the same weight 2 weeks in a row. I dont know of many people who are willing to do that. I think that is why so many people give up. It is damn hard trying to gain mass.

The lifting part is the easiest!

[tblodg15]

Going 4-5 months eating constant surpluses, EVERY day straining to get the food in. THAT is when I felt like I was going to puke. Not in the squat rack. Bringing your bodyweight up 30lbs and then dieting back down. Over and over and over. That takes work

This quote was copied from another thread but ID also mentioned it here.

I just wanted to say that I am surprised, almost shocked at how difficult the gaining phase has become 4 and now 5 months in. I was more worried about gaining weight too fast or gaining too much or gaining all fat and no muscle. Other guys warned me about starting a bulk after being overweight for years and suggested I maintain for a long time before going to a surplus. There was good reason for those concerns and suggestions and that’s why I am surprised. I have only gained about 10 or 11 pounds and I keep stalling now. I was stuck at 171 for 4 weeks even though I gradually increased calories. Once I bumped them again I got moving again for a few weeks and now this week my daily average is down. Yes that means eat more but I am constantly full! I just never imagined it would become a chore, I thought it might be the opposite.

Part of what is going on with me is that my metabolism is still recovering from being in a deficit for 18 plus months. So once I up my calories I gain for a few weeks and then start stalling and have to up them again. With my low activity level my calories are not real high but damn it seems like a lot of food to me and it is compared to what I ate for a long time. And volume wise I am probably eating more than I did even when I was 225+ pounds.

As I said earlier I know I could eat more junk food or higher calorie sources but of course I am trying to gain LBM and if I gain too fast it will be mostly fat. So I am continuing to hit my macros but am actually looking forward to maintenance and even cutting in another month or so.