Starting Keto diet but quick question

[jamesbondc]

Seniors, I'm starting Keto diet today. Someone said doing Keto I don't need to count calories. How true is this?

[dannydsan]

Count your calories.

[wave_length]

It‘s as true as Keto being more effective than any other calorie restricted, high protein diet. You will get fat on Keto if you eat too much.

[hardyboysare]

A diet where you can basically eat unlimited creams and bacon if you don't count calories.

What do you think OP sound like an effective method to lose weight?

Keto does nothing extra to lose fat then any other calorie restrictive plan, it's just the higher fat contents can be more filling. Although I know cream doesn't fill me up nor does bacon.

[rhadam]

Seniors, I'm starting Keto diet today. Someone said doing Keto I don't need to count calories. How true is this?

In no way is that true and i would not consult that "source" for information. All diets focused on weight loss do the exact same thing: set the level of calorie intake below TDEE. The compositions vary, but to lose adipose tissue you need to be in a calorie deficit.

[jamesbondc]

Thanks a lot.

[Tommy W.]

KETO for some people is more satiating due to the higher fat content however given the same calories of a carb inclusive diet there is no benefit of KETO from a fatloss perspective.

[BS57]

KETO for some people is more satiating due to the higher fat content however given the same calories of a carb inclusive diet there is no benefit of KETO from a fatloss perspective.

This. I tried Keto for a short while, and while I did cut some weight, it was due to being in a caloric deficit.

It was a good learning experience in that I learned just how much I like/need carbs for energy.

[Tommy W.]

This. I tried Keto for a short while, and while I did cut some weight, it was due to being in a caloric deficit.

It was a good learning experience in that I learned just how much I like/need carbs for energy.

The KETO books, etc lead you to believe there's some magical backdoor entry into stored fat with their plans. Worlds easiest "Theory" to shoot down. They tout Ketosis as this state of being where your body just becomes this stored fat burning machine.

[jamesbondc]

Day 2 on Keto. Some observations:

-Woke up at 3am after going to bed at 10pm but full of energy. Went back to sleep at 4am woke up at 7am.
- Have a headache and I read there is something called "Keto Flu". Keto flu happens soon as 2nd day? Mind you, I only had protein and fats since yesterday.

I have to admit, I don't feel hungry and I am kinda starting to like this diet. This may be the diet I can stick with. Thanks in advance for all suggestions/advice.

[LukeEverhart]

KETO for some people is more satiating due to the higher fat content however given the same calories of a carb inclusive diet there is no benefit of KETO from a fatloss perspective.

Yes, as a general rule this is true. There are two caveats, however.
1) The primary benefit of keto over simple caloric reduction is its impact on insulin sensitivity/resistance.

Insulin resistance (reduced insulin sensitivity) has long been implicated as a major factor in the chronically overweight experiencing more difficulty in managing appetite (blood sugar/insulin roller coaster) and reducing weight. Both the behavior that leads to being fat as well as the simple state of being fat for any significant length of time lowers insulin sensitivity & induces 'insulin resistance' (a component of 'metabolic syndrome' & precursor symptom to diabetes).

Keto diets (as well as less restrictive low carb diets in general) improve insulin sensitivity over time (so does IF incidentally).

So, if you're someone who has been a glutton in the course of gaining the fat or, perhaps, it simply crept up on you over time through negligence but you've been carrying it a long time, odds are overwhelming you have some degree of insulin resistance and will benefit from a health POV as well as your ability to maintain energy levels and control appetite by going keto rather than simple caloric restriction.

Your actual fat loss, however, will be a function of the caloric deficit.

Bonus: most find that fats & proteins are more satiating than carb foods and this usually results in a naturally reduced consumption which is why those who are on a keto diet and don't count calories often still succeed -- they are at a deficit organically because of appetite control/reduction.

2) While the caloric deficit is the essential essence of a fat loss plan, not all calories are created equal. There is a metabolic cost to processing each macronutrient termed the Thermic Effect of Food. Protein has a much higher TEF than carbs. Protein is typically cited as 20%-30% & carbs as 5%-10% (high variability by individual metabolic factors). So, consuming 1000 calories of protein vs 1000 calories of carbs results in a different net caloric count (700-800 for protein, 900-950 for carbs) to use or deposit as fat. This difference is not factored into BMR or TDEE metrics but dependent entirely on macronutrient composition.

Keto comes in re TEF if the portion of one's calories from protein increases as carbs decrease. However, fat actually has a lower TEF than either protein or carbs so... if protein stays roughly equivalent and the carbs are simply exchanged for fat in total caloric intake then the benefit isn't enjoyed.

But, TEF is the primary factor in why high protein diets have been demonstrated in both anecdote and numerous clinical trials to result in slightly greater fat loss than an isocaloric diet with a more macro-balanced ratio.

[Tommy W.]

Your actual fat loss, however, will be a function of the caloric deficit.

.

There. Fixed your post for you. I edited out the noise

[LukeEverhart]

There. Fixed your post for you. I edited out the noise

Well, I hope some of that "noise" is helpful for the OP and others in a similar situation.
A couple of big takeaways in addition to the essence you cite:
* You'll lose more fat on a 2000 calorie (as example #) diet that's 50% protein than on the same calorie diet that's only 20% protein (again, example % #).
* For those with compromised insulin sensitivity (most who've struggled with weight) going keto typically dramatically reduces both the willpower battle in controlling appetite and the energy drops conventional, simple low-calorie dieters often experience.

[BS57]

OP, I took a few minutes to browse your post history. You have struggled with food since you've joined here, and it has affected nearly EVERY aspect of your life. You have tried keto before, no meats, eating a specific number of apples a day, zig-zagging, "fat burners", and anything else pretty much possible under the sun.

What REALLY got me, was this:

I recently graduated from ACSM accredited university and majored in Health Fitness Specialist. Hospitals and corporate companies ask me for more experience and lil YMCA, GOLD and other generic gyms tell me I am overqualified.

10 Years here, and your quoted "qualifications", yet you still haven't learned a caloric deficit is what counts.

Wow.......

[bLinkMoore]

First piece of advice would be that anytime you start a question with "someone said...." and it seems kinda hard to believe, it's probably not true.

Keto is just a normal restrictive diet. If you follow it well and eat at a deficit, you'll lose weight.
If you eat at a surplus, you'll gain weight.

Disregard whoever that source is in the future

[Tommy W.]

Well, I hope some of that "noise" is helpful for the OP and others in a similar situation.
A couple of big takeaways in addition to the essence you cite:
* You'll lose more fat on a 2000 calorie (as example #) diet that's 50% protein than on the same calorie diet that's only 20% protein (again, example % #).
* For those with compromised insulin sensitivity (most who've struggled with weight) going keto typically dramatically reduces both the willpower battle in controlling appetite and the energy drops conventional, simple low-calorie dieters often experience.

The 2,000 calorie diet you describe would only be about a 100 calorie net difference with the TEF differences of 20% to 50% protein scenario. As far as insulin that really doesn't matter in a deficit. Willpower and controlling appetite is a mental situation and not a direct caloric issue.

[jamesbondc]

Lost 3.6 lbs in 2 days. How many days it takes for the body to go into ketosis? I tested today with ketone strip and I am not in ketosis yet.

[Tommy W.]

Lost 3.6 lbs in 2 days. How many days it takes for the body to go into ketosis? I tested today with ketone strip and I am not in ketosis yet.

why do you want to be in ketosis?

[jamesbondc]

why do you want to be in ketosis?

My understanding is: Once in Ketosis, the body will be forced to use either the fat I am eating for energy or the stored fat. Body can also convert the protein to glucose as well through Gluconeogenesis. I m trying to decrease my protein as well since calorie counter apps are displaying I am only eating 66% fat in a whole day. I don't lift much as I have issues with my Cervical and Lumbar region of spine. All, I do is walk 2 miles at speed of 3.3mph and lift light.

[SuffolkPunch]

My understanding is: Once in Ketosis, the body will be forced to use either the fat I am eating for energy or the stored fat. Body can also convert the protein to glucose as well through Gluconeogenesis. I m trying to decrease my protein as well since calorie counter apps are displaying I am only eating 66% fat in a whole day. I don't lift much as I have issues with my Cervical and Lumbar region of spine. All, I do is walk 2 miles at speed of 3.3mph and lift light.

That's true but only tells part of the story. If you move to a keto diet without adjusting total daily calories - it must mean you are eating more fat. That being the case, although you are burning more fat, you are also storing more.

Net effect = the same.

If you don't lift while dieting, you risk losing muscle mass and the bad effects that comes with that.

Don't reduce your protein intake because of what some app says. Actual research says that you need more when weight lifting and you can eat up to 1.6g / kg of bodyweight and show improved results.

[Tommy W.]

My understanding is: Once in Ketosis, the body will be forced to use either the fat I am eating for energy or the stored fat. Body can also convert the protein to glucose as well through Gluconeogenesis. I m trying to decrease my protein as well since calorie counter apps are displaying I am only eating 66% fat in a whole day. I don't lift much as I have issues with my Cervical and Lumbar region of spine. All, I do is walk 2 miles at speed of 3.3mph and lift light.

It will eat stored fat when it runs out of recently ingested calories, just like a carb inclusive diet so you aren't accomplishing anything.

[Cobbs79]

It will eat stored fat when it runs out of recently ingested calories, just like a carb inclusive diet so you aren't accomplishing anything.

Well, your blood sugar will be more stable on keto causing you not to feel hangry because your running off ketones instead of glucose. Both ways will tap into fat stores, you have to pick your poison.

[LukeEverhart]

As far as insulin that really doesn't matter in a deficit.

Insulin has a great deal to do with fat loss. Elevated insulin prevents the body from mobilizing stored fat and burning it.

The more insulin resistant one is (and the chronically overweight are almost universally resistant to some degree) the bigger the spike in insulin from a meal and the longer to return to normal homeostasis. Carbs precipitate the biggest insulin response of the 3 macronutrients by far. That's one reason that low carb diets are often more effective for those with chronic weight issues than a more macro-balanced isocaloric diet.

(the 1st small meal of a mere 200 calories of carby food in an insulin resistant person can elevate insulin for many hours. The fact of a daily deficit won't change that.)

[SuffolkPunch]

Insulin has a great deal to do with fat loss. Elevated insulin prevents the body from mobilizing stored fat and burning it.

The more insulin resistant one is (and the chronically overweight are almost universally resistant to some degree) the bigger the spike in insulin from a meal and the longer to return to normal homeostasis. Carbs precipitate the biggest insulin response of the 3 macronutrients by far. That's one reason that low carb diets are often more effective for those with chronic weight issues than a more macro-balanced isocaloric diet.

Given the fundamental law of nature that energy cannot be created or destroyed, how do you explain why two diets (low carb vs high carb) with equal net calorie balance would have different results?

Where does the energy go?

[LukeEverhart]

Given the fundamental law of nature that energy cannot be created or destroyed, how do you explain why two diets (low carb vs high carb) with equal net calorie balance would have different results?

Weight loss is comparable but the impediment of lipolysis shifts the balance of the catabolic process and proportionally higher LBM is lost. (While elevated insulin (insulin being an anabolic hormone) impedes all catabolic processes to some degree, the impediment of lipolysis is greater.)

Terrific info on insulin resistance, insulin, fat loss & mechanisms:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5583684/

[SuffolkPunch]

But we aren't necessarily talking about people with insulin resistance here. And there is no evidence that a ketogenic diet gives superior muscle gain/retention results in healthy people (either in a surplus or deficit) as far as I'm aware. For example:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6038311/

[LukeEverhart]

But we aren't necessarily talking about people with insulin resistance here. And there is no evidence that a ketogenic diet gives superior muscle gain/retention results in healthy people (either in a surplus or deficit) as far as I'm aware. For example:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6038311/

True, in a metabolically healthy individual it's a non-issue. Simply a matter of which approach is more satiating and sustainable and down to the calories.
And yes, I don't know the OP is insulin resistant -- nor do I have any reason to believe so. I was simply mentioning insulin & resistance/sensitivity initially as a possible benefit for why some choose & have more success with keto; then, followed up with a bit more info in reply to a post by another on its relevance.

My initial broad brush post was "if this is you" to the OP on will it benefit you more:
"So, if you're someone who has been a glutton in the course of gaining the fat or, perhaps, it simply crept up on you over time through negligence but you've been carrying it a long time, odds are overwhelming you have some degree of insulin resistance and will benefit from a health POV as well as your ability to maintain energy levels and control appetite by going keto rather than simple caloric restriction."
Figuring even if it wasn't applicable to the OP, those jumping in on a thread about keto might find it so.

[Tommy W.]

Insulin has a great deal to do with fat loss. Elevated insulin prevents the body from mobilizing stored fat and burning it.

The more insulin resistant one is (and the chronically overweight are almost universally resistant to some degree) the bigger the spike in insulin from a meal and the longer to return to normal homeostasis. Carbs precipitate the biggest insulin response of the 3 macronutrients by far. That's one reason that low carb diets are often more effective for those with chronic weight issues than a more macro-balanced isocaloric diet.

(the 1st small meal of a mere 200 calories of carby food in an insulin resistant person can elevate insulin for many hours. The fact of a daily deficit won't change that.)

The insulin fairy again. You could also discuss diabetics along with those that have very poor insulin sensitivity however it's best to keep things in perspective with no issues that complicate things however at the end of the day it's all about overall calories. Stored fat is mobilized when recently ingested energy is depleted regardless of macros or sensitivities, etc.

[dawalsh]

A diet where you can basically eat unlimited creams and bacon if you don't count calories.

What do you think OP sound like an effective method to lose weight?

Keto does nothing extra to lose fat then any other calorie restrictive plan, it's just the higher fat contents can be more filling. Although I know cream doesn't fill me up nor does bacon.

For sure it’s not filling. I don’t think keto is claim to be more filling, but for sure leave people more satiated.

[JCubb12]

Given the fundamental law of nature that energy cannot be created or destroyed, how do you explain why two diets (low carb vs high carb) with equal net calorie balance would have different results?

Where does the energy go?

I got this one Luke,

First thing - he never said two equal calorie diets are going to have different results. He just said low carb diets are often more effective than more balanced diets. The reason for this is:

Someone who is insulin resistant has a higher fasted blood sugar than a normal person at all times. This means they already have more glucose readily available to burn so they don't need to metabolize fat as much.

When a normal person eats fast carbs, their blood sugar spikes, than their insulin spikes. This lowers the blood sugar back to normal within an hour or two by storing the carbs as either glycogen or fat. Once your blood sugar is back to normal your body can then mobilize glycogen as well as fats to maintain your normal blood glucose level which supplies your body with energy until the next time you eat. Rinse repeat until you die.

When a insulin resistance person (Usually this is pre-diabetic or full blown diabetic) eats fast carbs, their blood sugar (which mind you is already elevated) spikes about twice as much as a normal persons. It also then takes 2-3 times as long to return their insulin level to their fasted level. In this time, there is little to no need for the body to metabolize fat as there is so much blood glucose available.

Now, if both people only eat 500 calories a day, both are going to lose weight. The difference would be that around meals, the insulin resistant person would not metabolize as much fat as the normal person. But in order to maintain that elevated fasted glucose level, they need to metabolize more fat than the normal person during the non-fed portions of their day.