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  1. #1
    Registered User CBY7's Avatar
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    Lebron with "no help" vs Jordan with "no help"

    Lets look at the time where both were on semi poverty teams without much around them, For Jordan this time is until Pippen becomes a starter, and for Lebron until he goes to Miami.

    1984-1985 NBA Standings:
    1. Celtics 63-19
    2. Bucks 59-23
    3. 76ers 58-24
    4. Pistons 46-36
    5. Nets 42-40
    6. Wizards 40-42
    7. Bulls 38-44
    8. Cavaliers 36-46

    Result: Lost to Bucks 1-3 first round

    1985-1986 NBA Standings:
    1. Celtics 67-15
    2. Bucks 57-25
    3. 76ers 54-28
    4. Hawks 50-32
    5. Pistons 46-36
    6. Wizards 39-43
    7. Nets 39-43
    8. Bulls 30-52

    Result: Bulls Swept by Celtics 0-3 First Round

    1986-1987 NBA Standings
    1. Celtics 59-23
    2. Hawks 57-25
    3. Pistons 52-30
    4. Bucks 50-32
    5. 76ers 45-37
    6. Wizards 42-40
    7. Pacers 41-41
    8. Bulls 40-42

    Result: Bulls swept 0-3 by Celtics

    Now is where Pippen is drafted. Pippen plays bench role in this season

    1987-1988 NBA Standings
    1. Celtics 57-25
    2. Pistons 54-28
    3. Bulls 50-32
    4. Hawks 50-32
    5. Bucks 42-40
    6. Cavs 42-40
    7. Wizards 38-44
    8. Knicks 38-44

    Result: Bulls win 1st round 3-2, Lose in 2nd round to Pistons 1-4. Pippen becomes starter in 1st round, Game 5.

    From this point on Pippen is a starter and Jordan now has "help".

    2003-2004 NBA Standings
    1. Pacers 61-21
    2. Pistons 54-28
    3. Nets 47-35
    4. Heat 42-40
    5. Hornets 41-41
    6. Bucks 41-41
    7. Knicks 39-43
    8. Celtics 36-36
    9. Cavs 35-47

    Result: Cavs miss Offs

    2004-2005 NBA Standings
    1. Heat 59-23
    2. Pistons 54-28
    3. Bulls 47-35
    4. Celtics 45-37
    5. Wizards 45-37
    6. Pacers 44-38
    7. 76ers 43-39
    8. Nets 42-40
    9. Cavs 42-40

    Result: Cavs miss Offs

    2005-2006 NBA Standings
    1. Pistons 64-18
    2. Heat 52-30
    3. Nets 49-33
    4.Cavs 50-32
    5. Wizards 42-40
    6. Pacers 41-41
    7. Bulls 41-41
    8. Bucks 40-42

    Result: Won 1st round 4-2 vs Wiz, Lost to Pistons in 2nd round 3-4.

    2006-2007 NBA Standings
    1. Pistons 53-29
    2. Cavs 50-32
    3. Raps 47-35
    4. Heat 44-38
    5. Bulls 49-33
    6. Nets 41-41
    7. Wiz 41-41
    8. Magic 40-42

    Result: Won 1st round vs Wiz 4-0, Won 2nd round vs Nets 4-2, Won 3rd round vs Pistons 4-2, Swept by Spurs 0-4 in NBA Finals

    2007-2008 NBA Standings
    1. Celtics 66-16
    2. Pistons 59-23
    3. Magic 52-30
    4. Cavs 45-37
    5. Wiz 43-39
    6. Raps 41-41
    7. 76ers 40-42
    8. Hawks 37-45

    Result: Won 1st round vs Wiz 4-2, Lost 2nd round to Celtics 3-4

    2008-2009 NBA Standings
    1. Cavs 66-16
    2. Celtics 62-20
    3. Magics 59-23
    4. Hawks 47-35
    5. Heat 43-39
    6. 76ers 41-41
    7. Bulls 41-41
    8. Pistons 39-43

    Result: Won 1st round vs Pistons 4-0, Won 2nd round vs Hawks 4-0, Lost ECF to Magic 2-4

    Jordan playoff series wins: 1
    Lebron playoff series wins: 8

    Jordan playoff series wins in first 4 years: 1
    Lebron playoff series wins in first 4 years: 5

    Jordan playoff series wins in first 4 years against 50+ win teams: 0
    Lebron playoff series wins first 4 years against 50+ win teams: 1

    Jordan playoff record in this time against 50+ win teams: 2-13
    Lebron playoff record in this time against 50+ win teams: 12-17

    Jordan playoff record in first 4 years vs 50+ win teams: 2-13
    Lebron playoff record in first 4 years vs 50+ win teams: 10-14

    "The east was so much tougher when Jordan played"
    "Jordan would never jump ship"
    "Jordans got that Mamba mentality, he would never lose in the finals"
    Last edited by CBY7; 02-24-2019 at 07:22 AM.
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  2. #2
    Registered User Belome's Avatar
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    Fake news... Jordan only played 6 NBA seasons according to the misc.
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  3. #3
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    Really can only compare their first season and 3rd.


    Jordan missed 60+ games 2nd year with broken foot.

    Lmao @ counting 50 and 60 win Cavaliers teams in lebrons 6th season.
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  4. #4
    Registered User CBY7's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HayZues Christi View Post
    Really can only compare their first season and 3rd.


    Jordan missed 60+ games 2nd year with broken foot.

    Lmao @ counting 50 and 60 win Cavaliers teams in lebrons 6th season.
    I adjusted it for you. Actually improves their playoff win percentage comparison in Lebron's favor.

    My main focus here is on the "East was so much better when Jordan played" narrative.
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  5. #5
    Yeshua is Messiah CalmWind's Avatar
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    3 out of the 4 Bulls losses are to the eventual Champions.

    the Celtics and the 89 Pistons.
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    This is pretty common knowledge that bron is the undisputed GOAT
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  7. #7
    Registered User CBY7's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CalmWind View Post
    3 out of the 4 Bulls losses are to the eventual Champions.

    the Celtics and the 89 Pistons.
    Incorrect. Neither of the Celtics teams Jordan lost to won the Finals, and the Pistons team that I have listed above in the 4 year comparison did not win the title.

    When looking at the first 4 years alone, none of the teams that beat Jordan won the title, while 1 of the 4 teams that Lebron lost to won the title.

    Not the argument you wanna go with.
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  8. #8
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  9. #9
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    What makes someone wake up and say “I am going to make a lebron vs lebron or lebron vs Kobe thread today”???
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    94 Bulls without Jordan : 55-27

    2019 Cavs without LeBron : 13-46

    Pretty damning evidence right here.
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  11. #11
    Check My $tats SompletelyCober's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AriGhold View Post
    What makes someone wake up and say “I am going to make a lebron vs lebron or lebron vs Kobe thread today”???
    Only you would do this solely so you could deepthroat the guy some more and insist that "LeBron would easily beat LeBron. He's the GOAT!"
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  12. #12
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    Originally Posted by DeadeyeDingo View Post
    94 Bulls without Jordan : 55-27

    2019 Cavs without LeBron : 13-46

    Pretty damning evidence right here.
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  13. #13
    Registered User Malversation's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DeadeyeDingo View Post
    94 Bulls without Jordan : 55-27

    2019 Cavs without LeBron : 13-46

    Pretty damning evidence right here.
    Not really comparable tbh because of the difference in the systems ran, LeBron's teams are designed to maximize his potential by bringing in 3pt marksmen and stretch bigs. The entire system, the LeBron system, requires an elite ball handler who can pass out of double teams to the open man and drive into the paint so as to take advantage of the 3pt shooters. Of course the cavs are going to be garbage when the man that the entire system is designed around leaves without any compensation. Jordan's teams ran systems that were designed around the team concept, not around his own personal strengths in specific. Consequently the results will be different.

    However, with that being said I think LeBron is probably the GOAT at doing as much as possible with little. But Jordan is just a better winner.
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  14. #14
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    Man it sure does sound like this LeBron guy wins a lot of games.

    What are his finals records?

    That's usually where the true great players step up and ensure their own victories.

    So how about those finals records?

    I'd say the lack of that would be pretty damning to a great player.

    No different than it detracting from Peyton Manning, etc.
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    Check My $tats SompletelyCober's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MBisonSon View Post
    Man it sure does sound like this LeBron guy wins a lot of games.

    What are his finals records?

    That's usually where the true great players step up and ensure their own victories.

    So how about those finals records?

    I'd say the lack of that would be pretty damning to a great player.

    No different than it detracting from Peyton Manning, etc.
    How about his championships? I heard this LeBron guy was the greatest ever.

    Surely he must have like 8, 9 rings since Jordan and Kareem have 6, Magic, Duncan, Kobe have 5, and Shaq has 4.

    Then you add a straight killer like Durant who is racking up ring after ring and FMVP after FMVP and might end up with 4, 5, 6 rings. But that probably won't be enough to surpass the GOAT LeGod with his 8 or 9. Can someone confirm how many he actually has?
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    Registered User Belome's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SompletelyCober View Post

    Then you add a straight killer like Durant who is racking up ring after ring and FMVP after FMVP and might end up with 4, 5, 6 rings. But that probably won't be enough to surpass the GOAT LeGod
    Fact.
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    Yeshua is Messiah CalmWind's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CBY7 View Post
    Incorrect. Neither of the Celtics teams Jordan lost to won the Finals, and the Pistons team that I have listed above in the 4 year comparison did not win the title.

    When looking at the first 4 years alone, none of the teams that beat Jordan won the title, while 1 of the 4 teams that Lebron lost to won the title.

    Not the argument you wanna go with.
    Youre a troll. Your list is wrong. The Bucks beat the Bulls in 85, not 86.


    The 1986 playoffs had the Bulls defeated by the Celtics, the eventual champions. Your list says the Bulls lost to the Bucks, which is wrong.

    That's the year the Celtics had one of the all time GOAT historical defenses. And Jordan missed 60+ games that season, and he came back in time for the playoffs, and dropped 63 points in a playoff game against the Celtics.
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    Registered User tekkenbruh's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SompletelyCober View Post
    How about his championships? I heard this LeBron guy was the greatest ever.

    Surely he must have like 8, 9 rings since Jordan and Kareem have 6, Magic, Duncan, Kobe have 5, and Shaq has 4.

    Then you add a straight killer like Durant who is racking up ring after ring and FMVP after FMVP and might end up with 4, 5, 6 rings. But that probably won't be enough to surpass the GOAT LeGod with his 8 or 9. Can someone confirm how many he actually has?
    I like how you’re cheerleading so vigorously for a guy that says that Kevin Love has comparable impact on the team to prime Shaq, imagine that.

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  19. #19
    Registered User MBisonSon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tekkenbruh View Post
    I like how you’re cheerleading so vigorously for a guy that says that Kevin Love has comparable impact on the team to prime Shaq, imagine that.

    Birds of feather etc
    I never said anything like that.

    What I said was as good as She's was his impact wasn't close to that of 2 franchise players.

    Because people like Belome we're trying to say Shaq was so good he was essentially equal to two lesser franchise players.

    Any reasonable person knows that's flat out wrong.

    No franchise player in the history of pro sports has ever been good enough to beat two franchise players.

    That's not even getting into the spacing advantages multiple guys create over just one.

    When you have 3 guys you virtually guarantee you have one of them, if not 2, on the court at all times.

    Also major advantage in case of injuries as you have more backup guys you can run the offense through.

    As they say in the military "If you got two, you got one. If you got one, you got none"
    The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.

    That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.

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    Tl;dr
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    Lebron's great and his overall skillset helps him push shet teams forward better and more than Jordan. Jordan had insane individual stats during those shet seasons. But in the end, Jordan is still the GOAT, Lebron is still chasing him but it's almost certain that Lebron will come up short.
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    Originally Posted by tekkenbruh View Post
    Tl;dr
    You read it and felt dumb as you realized you were agreeing with some kid who legit thinks Shaq was a superhero.
    The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.

    That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.

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    I really didn’t tbh but whatever helps you sleep at night
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    Originally Posted by CalmWind View Post
    Youre a troll. Your list is wrong. The Bucks beat the Bulls in 85, not 86.


    The 1986 playoffs had the Bulls defeated by the Celtics, the eventual champions. Your list says the Bulls lost to the Bucks, which is wrong.

    That's the year the Celtics had one of the all time GOAT historical defenses. And Jordan missed 60+ games that season, and he came back in time for the playoffs, and dropped 63 points in a playoff game against the Celtics.
    Yes the years are flipped there my bad.

    However you said 3 of 4 of the teams the Bulls lost to became champions, that’s incorrect. In the years that Jordan lost 3 of 7 of the teams went on to win the title and in the first 4 years it’s 1 of 4 to 1 of 4.

    Still not the argument to go with.
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    Originally Posted by tekkenbruh View Post
    I really didn’t tbh but whatever helps you sleep at night
    Oh OK so you didn't read the first post but read and responded to the second?

    Sounds plausible, intuitive, etc

    Should have just stood fake ignoring me.

    You played yourself Timmy.
    The billionaire and the beggar both have 24 hours in a day.

    That's why grandma's apple pie rocks and yours sucks.

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    So Lebron had Wade on the Heat, who has he really had on the Cavs? Love and Irving? Those are his help? Yikes.

    That's the only thing about these Finals wins narratives. If Lebron had any sort of help in that first Finals vs. GSW, and if Durant didn't jump ship after Lebron beat GSW that second Finals, it's entirely plausible that he would have 6 rings right now.

    Context definitely helps.

    I'm not calling Lebron better than Jordan but the hate for him is pretty strong
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    Lebron with "help" - 3/8 (not counting when he was swept in 2007)
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    Originally Posted by MBisonSon View Post
    You read it and felt dumb as you realized you were agreeing with some kid who legit thinks Shaq was a superhero.
    He was probably afraid your window licking ways would rub off on him.

    Have fun continuing to think Kevin Love and Chris Bosh would mean more to a team than Shaq or Jordan.

    You are alone, and stupid lol.
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    Originally Posted by Belome View Post
    He was probably afraid your window licking ways would rub off on him.

    Have fun continuing to think Kevin Love and Chris Bosh would mean more to a team than Shaq or Jordan.

    You are alone, and stupid lol.
    I thought it was already common knowledge that that bison dude is a complete moron. shocking to see him still able to spew his really really stupid opinions tbh
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    Originally Posted by MBisonSon View Post

    No franchise player in the history of pro sports has ever been good enough to beat two franchise players.

    That's not even getting into the spacing advantages multiple guys create over just one.
    I also found this funny, since you consider All stars on the same level as each other,

    When LeBron beat the warriors... by your definition, it was one franchise player vs 3.

    And he got the W.

    So...... you’re saying LeBron is GOAT?
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