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Thread: Barbell Row

  1. #1
    Registered User adamgentile's Avatar
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    Barbell Row

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NQM2sVPt7Q

    How's the form? Looks like I should be leaning over more, but at this angle I still feel it in the back.

    This set was at 185lbs.
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    Whats the goal here: lats or upper back

    Either way, I'd try to eliminate that excess movement from legs. Initiate with your back, not momentum.

    This angle is mostly working your traps/rhomboids.
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    Too upright with too much leg drive for my liking. I would consider pulling from the lowest setting of your safety bars on the rack while working on form. Jeff Nippard released a good video on rows recently.

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    I'm not saying I can do better, but are you aware that your back angle/hip hinge is decreasing as you lift up and increasing as you lower down? There's almost a bit of the top of a deadlift (or good morning) happening as you BOR. Just mentioning...
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    Registered User adamgentile's Avatar
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    Yeah it's pretty ****ty! Thanks all, it's a good wake up call. Time to lower the weight and do it properly. I'm all about execution and form before how heavy I can go.


    That video of Jeff is spot on, good stuff.
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    Yes that is more of a combined Romanian deadlift / upright row than a bent over row. Like others said I would start way more bent over and then keep the angle of your back the same throughout instead is standing up on the concentric.
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    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    The back has to be hit from many angles. You are a tad high, but still benificail.

    I dont see any overuse of legs either.

    If you posted how do my "pendalay rows" look, sure.... the criticism is warranted. But otherwise I see that as an effective PART of your back work.

    That said, I would lower my angle just a tad for more overall lat activation and less delt DEPENDING on goals.

    There is a place for 'sloppier' type movements ESPECIALLY when training as complex muscle group as the back. Anyone who might say otherwise is spending too much time behind their 'expert' keyboard and not enought time in a rack.
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    420 Bench (paused) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ2_Q-TLIB8
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    Originally Posted by adamgentile View Post

    That video of Jeff is spot on, good stuff.
    I have to laugh at this. Although he does a good job of explaining the activation in the vid, his ideas of training the back truly effectively are not accurate.

    I think the guy might know a little more about back training considering the varient of the bent row for him.

    I think he would look at your posted form vid with a little less negative feedback as well.






    I am no Dorian Yates by far but I never heard of a "pendaly row" until a few years back. I do them now and again for fun, but it is NOT how I built my back. I built my back by putting as much weight as I could through it while maintining good form. ("good" form does not necessarily mean "strict" form). I can do "Pendalay" rows with "strict" form up 315, but I chose to do "regular" bent rows going up to sets of 405. MUCH better back workout.

    Take your pick on whos advice you want to take. There are as many 'experts' as there are youtube chanels and the people that follow them just parrot advice.
    RAW lifts
    635 Dead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mATRBZ0gwdg
    585x7 Dead reps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yf2ZkdNNNQ
    420 Bench (paused) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ2_Q-TLIB8
    535 Squat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdgVaiTi4-8&feature=youtu.be
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    I have to laugh at this. Although he does a good job of explaining the activation in the vid, his ideas of training the back truly effectively are not accurate.

    I think the guy might know a little more about back training considering the varient of the bent row for him.

    I think he would look at your posted form vid with a little less negative feedback as well.






    I am no Dorian Yates by far but I never heard of a "pendaly row" until a few years back. I do them now and again for fun, but it is NOT how I built my back. I built my back by putting as much weight as I could through it while maintining good form. ("good" form does not necessarily mean "strict" form). I can do "Pendalay" rows with "strict" form up 315, but I chose to do "regular" bent rows going up to sets of 405. MUCH better back workout.

    Take your pick on whos advice you want to take. There are as many 'experts' as there are youtube chanels and the people that follow them just parrot advice.

    I was just being nice but in all honesty I'm not a fan of Jeff at all, ha! I have issues trying to please everyone

    The reason I do barbell rows this way is because of Dorian, I'm a big fan of his.

    Thanks man!
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    The back has to be hit from many angles. You are a tad high, but still benificail.

    I dont see any overuse of legs either.

    If you posted how do my "pendalay rows" look, sure.... the criticism is warranted. But otherwise I see that as an effective PART of your back work.

    That said, I would lower my angle just a tad for more overall lat activation and less delt DEPENDING on goals.

    There is a place for 'sloppier' type movements ESPECIALLY when training as complex muscle group as the back. Anyone who might say otherwise is spending too much time behind their 'expert' keyboard and not enought time in a rack.
    Thank you! Honestly I don't see any overuse of legs as well. I will agree I'm too high, but I always feel it in the back where I am supposed to feel it.
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    I've got tight hams, always been battling that, maybe partly why I struggle with and hate Pendlay. Personally I prefer BOR and make up any shortfall in rhomboid, lats etc with some reverse fly. I'm still not sure why people can be such Pendlay Nazzis at times.

    Opinions different greatly though. I'm absolutely not endorsing/agreeing with Rip and this surprised me.. just putting out there as one unusual opinion before we get too stressed about the details

    "Mark Rippetoe: I do. My opinion about barbell rows is as follows: **** barbell rows . Really. **** them. Stop wasting time worrying about barbell rows and get your deadlift up to 500. By then you'll have your own opinion and you won't have to worry about mine."

    F word censored above, but it was in the original
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    I have to laugh at this. Although he does a good job of explaining the activation in the vid, his ideas of training the back truly effectively are not accurate.

    I think the guy might know a little more about back training considering the varient of the bent row for him.

    I think he would look at your posted form vid with a little less negative feedback as well.






    I am no Dorian Yates by far but I never heard of a "pendaly row" until a few years back. I do them now and again for fun, but it is NOT how I built my back. I built my back by putting as much weight as I could through it while maintining good form. ("good" form does not necessarily mean "strict" form). I can do "Pendalay" rows with "strict" form up 315, but I chose to do "regular" bent rows going up to sets of 405. MUCH better back workout.

    Take your pick on whos advice you want to take. There are as many 'experts' as there are youtube chanels and the people that follow them just parrot advice.
    This is how I perform my BOR's. I take a little wider grip than what he says in the video.
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    I've got tight hams, always been battling that, maybe partly why I struggle with and hate Pendlay. Personally I prefer BOR and make up any shortfall in rhomboid, lats etc with some reverse fly. I'm still not sure why people can be such Pendlay Nazzis at times.

    Opinions different greatly though. I'm absolutely not endorsing/agreeing with Rip and this surprised me.. just putting out there as one unusual opinion before we get too stressed about the details

    "Mark Rippetoe: I do. My opinion about barbell rows is as follows: **** barbell rows . Really. **** them. Stop wasting time worrying about barbell rows and get your deadlift up to 500. By then you'll have your own opinion and you won't have to worry about mine."

    F word censored above, but it was in the original
    Very true, especially with lifting, tons of opinions out there. But we all find what works for us.
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    Originally Posted by ectoBgone View Post
    Too upright with too much leg drive for my liking. I would consider pulling from the lowest setting of your safety bars on the rack while working on form. Jeff Nippard released a good video on rows recently.


    Jeff is big on social media, not the biggest fan of his advice, but sometimes he has something good. He is 5'5" as well, Im 5'11 with long monkey arms.
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    Originally Posted by adamgentile View Post
    Very true, especially with lifting, tons of opinions out there. But we all find what works for us.
    There seems to be more variation of opinion on the rows than just about anything else I've seen. Rippetoe does them one way, Alan Thrall does them another way, Brian Alsruhe does them still another way. I think you have some flexibility there.
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    Lots of big built backs and not a pendalay in sight! Leg movement too. Check out Larry Wheels 495 rows at 2:50. Who is going to tell him his form sucks?

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    Originally Posted by adamgentile View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NQM2sVPt7Q

    How's the form? Looks like I should be leaning over more, but at this angle I still feel it in the back.

    This set was at 185lbs.
    If you had a low row, you could do seated rows for a variation...if only there was one of those machines available

    But, just for conversation, I used to love barbell rows and they were the foundation of my back training. But for some reason about a year, or so, back I just totally lost my grove on them. If I bend over too far, my lower back hurts, if I’m too upright I don’t feel it in the target areas, if I go heavy, my arms give out before my back, if I go light, I’m just hitting my rear Delts.

    I dunno. Now I do chest supported dumbbell rows on an incline bench. Can bring the elbows back really and squeeze the inner back, and drop the bar to a dead hang at the bottom to really concentrate on initializing the movement with my lats. On my “heavy” day, I do close grip land mines. I can use a lot more weigh than barbell bent over rows, really hunker down on the bar, pull the handgrips up to a more productive location, and keep the good form I want.

    But hey...I don’t have a back like any of the guys pictured above...just conversing.
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    Originally Posted by grubman View Post
    On my “heavy” day, I do close grip land mines.

    Cool, never tried these before, will have to give them a shot.
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    I am not a famous youtuber....nor am I selling anything.....but this (part) of my method to building a thick back. Lift something heavy! 2x bw rows. I have always believed you should be rowing what you bench.



    In B4 too much leg

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    Originally Posted by tblodg15 View Post
    Yes that is more of a combined Romanian deadlift / upright row than a bent over row. Like others said I would start way more bent over and then keep the angle of your back the same throughout instead is standing up on the concentric.
    I wanted to say exactly the same thing, It's a RDL/upright row hybrid.

    Bend over more and lower the weight. Focus on the back muscles pulling the elbows back, and maintain the hip angle.
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    I am not a famous youtuber....nor am I selling anything.....but this (part) of my method to building a thick back. Lift something heavy! 2x bw rows. I have always believed you should be rowing what you bench.

    In B4 too much leg
    Of course we have to lift heavy and we all know that progressive overload is necessary to keep growing. But an honest question, especially for the vast majority of us guys who are novice/intermediate - why would we not want to lift with more strict form to primarily hit the target muscle?

    I can tell you that I see 90% of the guys at my local YMCA using excessive momentum and/or reduced range of motion in all their lifts and only a few of them have good builds. I agree there are a few lifts where a little momentum still works the target muscle and allows further overload but I think that most people need to learn the lift properly and build some size and strength before they start heaving the weights.

    But I am no expert and am constantly learning and would like to understand how using momentum and tucking the chest towards the bar at the top of a row to take the load off the lats is helping to grow the lats?
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    Originally Posted by tblodg15 View Post
    Of course we have to lift heavy and we all know that progressive overload is necessary to keep growing. But an honest question, especially for the vast majority of us guys who are novice/intermediate - why would we not want to lift with more strict form to primarily hit the target muscle?

    I can tell you that I see 90% of the guys at my local YMCA using excessive momentum and/or reduced range of motion in all their lifts and only a few of them have good builds. I agree there are a few lifts where a little momentum still works the target muscle and allows further overload but I think that most people need to learn the lift properly and build some size and strength before they start heaving the weights.

    But I am no expert and am constantly learning and would like to understand how using momentum and tucking the chest towards the bar at the top of a row to take the load off the lats is helping to grow the lats?
    The "back" is one of the most complex muscle groups of the body. When you say 'tucking the chest", something is lifting the weight. Erectors are initiating the movment, and then taking a great load at the bottom slowing and stopping the weight. Lats and arms are pulling with everything and then overloaded on the eccentric. There are so many things going on in this lift and the and the dynamics of it are why it is so effective.

    Now, I dont do every set like this....and I generally only do one set this 'heavy'. I can pendalay row 315 all day long and not get nearly the full back workout I get doing just doing 1-2 set like this. There is a time and place for very strict movements. I dont believe the back is one of them unless you are specifically targeting an 'weak' point.

    I personally dont do 'weak point' training. I just concentrate on overall muscle stimulation. If I am working around an injury or working a machine, I am much more strict and use much lighter weights. I use MUCH lighter weights when working machines. I can squat well over 500lbs but rarely use more than 4 plates on a leg press as an example.

    Look at that vid I posted of guys who are all super strong and have rediclous backs....(natural or not it does not matter). Below is an old pic of mine from 2012. At this time I was lifetime natural and prior to any hormone treatment which I am now on.



    There is (in my mind) no better way to build a back than with complex, dynamic, overload exercises done in 'strict' form of course. By 'strict', I mean controlled. I am perfectly in control of the weight in the vid I posted. It is not controlling me. I am deciding how to move and and not relying on belts or supportive devices.

    But....I should say that I would not recommend training like this without proper experience. AND dont let your ego dictate the weight. Never compromise form for weight.

    To build a stong back that is thick and big, you have to let the back do it's job. Dynamically overloading (with good form) is PART of the process in my opinion. Not the only part, but an importan one. I dont belive for a minute my back would look like this if all I ever did was cable rows and lat pulldowns. LOTS of deads and barbell rows, combined with pullups.

    This is my back now after 7 years of "progress". Hard to tell the difference I know. (sad but true to show for 7 years work)... But I am apox 7-10lbs heavier between the 2 pics. (but I also cant consider myself 100% natural anymore FWIW)

    RAW lifts
    635 Dead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mATRBZ0gwdg
    585x7 Dead reps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yf2ZkdNNNQ
    420 Bench (paused) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ2_Q-TLIB8
    535 Squat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdgVaiTi4-8&feature=youtu.be
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    There are so many things going on in this lift and the and the dynamics of it are why it is so effective.

    I can pendalay row 315 all day long and not get nearly the full back workout I get doing just doing 1-2 set like this. There is a time and place for very strict movements. I dont believe the back is one of them unless you are specifically targeting an 'weak' point.
    Thanks for your time with the detailed reply! I liked the comments I quoted above and I will say I personally have not tried rows with this form.

    I won’t hurt for me to try a few sets using momentum and a heavier weight and see how it feels in my lats compared to my normal strict form with lighter weights.

    And yes that’s impressive back development in both of your pics! The width may not be obviously better in the more recent pic but I can see improved thickness and especially in the traps/rhomboid area.
    Bodybuilding is much more than an hour in the gym a few days a week---it's a lifestyle that changes all your perceptions about how to live, eat, and rest. It feeds the mind as much (and sometimes more so) than the body.
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    I am not a famous youtuber....nor am I selling anything.....but this (part) of my method to building a thick back. Lift something heavy! 2x bw rows. I have always believed you should be rowing what you bench.



    In B4 too much leg

    Nice!
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