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  1. #61
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    "Hey Jack, can you help "him" out?"
    "Hey Jack, can you help Paul/Paula out?"

    See how hard that is?
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  2. #62
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    Originally Posted by NYPat View Post
    "Hey Jack, can you help Paul/Paula out?"

    See how hard that is?
    Obviously you missed the part where they said that wasn't good enough.
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  3. #63
    Jacques Rhott Bushmaster's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DDSF1 View Post
    This nonsense with f ags, feminism, and trannies is out of control. When will this insanity end? Has the public in general lost its mind?
    When ped0philia and bestiality are normalized. And even then I'm not convinced that will be the end of it..
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    And I saw myself staring back again, and I saw myself staring back again...
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  4. #64
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    Originally Posted by ButWhoWasNoodz View Post
    So they agree with Hillary then about their "time?"
    She says some quite racist things. Trump should play those if she runs again...of course, she can barely walk though so...
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  5. #65
    Platinum User chaunce54's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    When ped0philia and bestiality are normalized. And even then I'm not convinced that will be the end of it..
    When robots and animals and have all human rights.
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  6. #66
    ..and a half! (it counts) Sebstan01's Avatar
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    If you bothered to read the article and not just the cliffs, the school was well within their right to fire this individual because he did not follow the school's policy. It's simple as that, because an organisation's policy often forms a part of contractual obligations in general OR it is at least taken to have the same significance as the actual, written contract (at least, in my jurisdiction).

    This wasn't a case of "the left winning" so much as it was a case of a breach of contract. And really, if you do not agree with the policy of the institution you are signing up with, it's probably best to forego that job especially if those policies contradict your personal and/religious views. He knew what he was getting himself into...
    Last edited by Sebstan01; 12-09-2018 at 06:53 AM.
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    Originally Posted by NYPat View Post
    "Hey Jack, can you help Paul/Paula out?"

    See how hard that is?
    "Hey Jack, can you carry these bags to the cafeteria, Paula, can you help him out?
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  8. #68
    Registered User ButWhoWasNoodz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sebstan01 View Post
    If you bothered to read the article and not just the cliffs, the school was well within their right to fire this individual because he did not follow the school's policy. It's simple as that, because an organisation's policy often forms a part of contractual obligations in general OR it is at least taken to have the same significance as the actual, written contract (at least, in my jurisdiction).

    This wasn't a case of "the left winning" so much as it was a case of a breach of contract. And really, if you do not agree with the policy of the institution you are signing up with, it's probably best to forego that job especially if those policies contradict your personal and/religious views. He knew what he was getting himself into...
    So what you’re saying is Woolworth was well within its rights to deny serving blacks at their lunch counter because it was their policy? Or that the city of Montgomery’s bus company was within its rights to tell Rosa Parks to move to the back because it was their policy? Very interdasting.......
    Sorry, you can’t have a policy to force someone to say things that are blatantly false and forcibly discriminate against said individual's right to state facts.
    That's some Cuba/N Korea bs where if you speak facts against the government it's their policy to send you off to an internment camp.
    Last edited by ButWhoWasNoodz; 12-09-2018 at 07:10 AM.
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  9. #69
    Banned Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AlwaysFocus View Post
    What I dont get is the actual transgender cannot breed.

    They literally just die off first generation.


    No animals are transgender.

    Some animals do homosexual acts.


    Transgenderism is a srs mental disease
    They can adopt....or can they?
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  10. #70
    Methodological Naturalism tk217's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    The school district probably agrees with the teacher but is more than likely protecting itself from lawsuits.
    If I was that teacher I'd sue the **** out of them. Jordan Peterson is correct on this topic.
      
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  11. #71
    ..and a half! (it counts) Sebstan01's Avatar
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    The Woolworths event and similarly, Rosa Parks are not relevant to this matter. This is an employment law issue primarily. Those were racial discrimination issues. There's no employment contract between Woolworths and the people they choose to serve, and the context is completely different.

    Sorry...but yes...yes, you can have a policy that excludes certain behaviours. Employers have rights too, ya know. Religious schools do it all the time wherein, they refuse employment of openly gay/lesbian teachers on grounds that their lifestyle choices do not support the religious beliefs of the institution. Airlines have policies against visible tattoos on their employees because "it doesn't fit within the brand". And that's okay. Because as an institution, you have a right and say on how to run things.

    Don't be naive, btw. No one is forcing anyone to say things that are blatantly against fact.
    The issue is, did this individual violate the school's policy (and possibly his contractual obligation)? The answer is, yes, he did. The result is instant termination.

    On what grounds can you appeal for unfair dismissal? Because any law maker worth their salt is going to question why the individual entered into a contract in the first place, when he did not agree to the terms (or in this case, the policies) of said contract. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
    Last edited by Sebstan01; 12-09-2018 at 07:35 AM.
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  12. #72
    Methodological Naturalism tk217's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sebstan01 View Post
    The Woolworths event and similarly, Rosa Parks are not relevant to this matter. This is an employment law issue primarily. Those were racial discrimination issues. There's no employment contract between Woolworths and the people they choose to serve, and the context is completely different.

    Sorry...but yes...yes, you can have a policy that excludes certain behaviours. Employers have rights too, ya know. Religious schools do it all the time wherein, they refuse employment of openly gay/lesbian teachers on grounds that their lifestyle choices do not support the religious beliefs of the institution. Airlines have policies against visible tattoos on their employees because "it doesn't fit within the brand". And that's okay. Because as an institution, you have a right and say on how to run things.

    Don't be naive, btw. No one is forcing anyone to say things that are blatantly against fact.
    The issue is, did this individual violate the school's policy (and possibly his contractual obligation)? The answer is, yes, he did. The result is instant termination.

    On what grounds can you appeal for unfair dismissal? Because any law maker worth their salt is going to question why the individual entered into a contract in the first place, when he did not agree to the terms (or in this case, the policies) of said contract. You can't have your cake and eat it to
    Private versus Public.

    As a member of the Public I for **** don't agree with denying scientific facts such as biological sex is XY and XX for the majority of people.

    Completely irrelevant post because this is a public school.

    Legal analyst Russ Stone told 8News that it's uncertain whether or not the school has grounds to fire Vlaming.

    Vlaming's lawyer also tells 8News, “Public schools have no business compelling people to express ideological beliefs that they don’t hold. This isn’t just about a pronoun; this is about forcing someone to endorse an ideology under threat of losing his job. That’s neither legal nor constitutional."
    Here is the reality. The teacher will win. As they should.

    This is a literal mental illness. Subscribing to this ideology is the same as subscribing to Jeffrey Dahmer's belief that raping and mutilating children isn't his choice.
      
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    ..and a half! (it counts) Sebstan01's Avatar
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    I don't know how it works for your jurisdiction but I'm guessing it is no different to mine. For instance, public schools in my jurisdiction have policies that are mandated by the Department of Education (in addition to their individual institution's policy that often mirrors the state sanctioned one).
    In which case, those policies have to also be followed as an employee of a state funded school.

    This guy isn't going to sue because he isn't going to win. Period. Employers have the right to exercise their own policies and even if his pay slip listed a state body (as opposed to a private one) as his employer, he would be under that body's policy. And I bet you anything, that policy would mirror the one enforced by the school, because most state bodies have anti-discrimination tenets.
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    Registered User Firefightn24's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    The school can have policies - I expect someone who works their to leave their personal opinions at the door. Outside of school he can say whatever he wants. Your examples are silly as that’s not happening.
    Their personal opinions on things like science and biology?
    Being anti-2nd Amendment is like saying "We have too many rights, please take some away!"
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    Methodological Naturalism tk217's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sebstan01 View Post
    I don't know how it works for your jurisdiction but I'm guessing it is no different to mine. For instance, public schools in my jurisdiction have policies that are mandated by the Department of Education (in addition to their individual institution's policy that often mirrors the state sanctioned one).
    In which case, those policies have to be followed as an employee of a state funded school.
    This guy isn't going to sue because he isn't going to win. Period. Employers have the right to exercise their own policies and even he his pay slip listed a state body (as opposed to a private one), he would be under that body's policy. And I bet you anything, that policy would mirror the one enforced by the school.
    You're in Australia right? This is in America. Americans have constitutional rights such: Freedom to express yourself, to worship as you wish, a prompt, fair trial by jury. The right to vote in elections for public officials and the right to apply for federal employment requiring U.S. citizenship as well as right to run for elected office, but often it is the freedom to pursue “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

    But we also have some specific responsibilities such as: support and defend the Constitution stay informed of the issues affecting your community, participate in the democratic process, respect and obey federal, state, and local laws, respect the rights, beliefs, and opinions of others, participate in your local community, pay income and other taxes honestly, and on time, to federal, state, and local authorities, serve on a jury when called upon, defend the country if the need should arise.

    The real issue here is what is "Free Speech" and what does it mean to be a federal/state/local employee. The SCOTUS have been cautious in this area, limiting the protection to speech that is on matters of "public concern." The Supreme Court is not yet ready to say that public employees are protected from retaliation for any First Amendment activity. Thus, while the government could not put someone in jail for complaining about a meager raise, the government might still be able to fire a public employee for this reason, unless the complaint was a matter of "public concern."

    This is a matter of public concern.

    ... the interests of the [employee] as a citizen, in commenting on matters of public concern ... [must be balanced against] ... the interest of the State as an employer, in promoting the efficiency of the public services it performs through its employees...
    In other words, if you bring a claim against your employer under the First Amendment, you must convince the court that your interest in speaking openly on a matter of public concern outweighs the government's interest in having an efficient workplace.

    I would argue and I would win - tricking students into believing Joe is a woman and Susan is a man does not vet the government's interest nor is it an efficient means of education. It will cause harm in the workplace in the end as well.

    Why? Because making communications impossible as well as consistently unveiling inane virtue signals does not benefit the board nor promulgate business interests. It devolves them.

    If the SCOTUS (and beleive me they care) wants a more virtuous society they can make workplaces fair based on scientific evidence; that does not mean people have to be uncivilized. If there is fact based merit to a person's claim of gender identity (which there are none) then the courts should support it. Your feelings aren't enough of a weight in this situation to espouse the ruining of someone's life and the damage to their reputation. They aren't being fired because they lack work ethic. They're being fired because the board wants to dodge litigation (which they will not dodge) on a topic that is not black and white and will easily encapsulate the very costly court case they want to avoid. This has already played out in the North under Jordan Peterson.
    Last edited by tk217; 12-09-2018 at 08:06 AM.
      
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    Originally Posted by Firefightn24 View Post
    Their personal opinions on things like science and biology?
    Are not controlling in school. Brb biology teacher refuses to teach evolution, claims 1st and ement protection, and thinks he can’t get fired. Doesn’t work that way.
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    Are not controlling in school. Brb biology teacher refuses to teach evolution, claims 1st and ement protection, and think he can’t get fired. Doesn’t work that way.
    Exactly. Just like why you don't call a boy a girl or a girl a boy. Doesn't work that way.
      
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    Registered User miscinbro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tk217 View Post
    Exactly. Just like why you don't call a boy a girl or a girl a boy. Doesn't work that way.
    Not in this case as it was the school’s policy. You may think it’s stupid but addressing students in the way they request seems very reasonable to me and defendable - in general. And please, spare some silly example about a student wanting to be called a 30 word title every time, etc.
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    Well...okay. You have a point in regards to different jurisdictions.
    Our freedom of speech right is not explicitly enforced in a legal document as is yours; rather, it is implied via legislation and some case law in relation to certain types of communication.


    I still believe this is more of a contractual breach rather than unfair dismissal. Again--the issue is not one of freedom of speech but breach of contract via discrimination (under the school's policy). I'd like to think that even your freedom of speech, has limitations. Using your argument, Megyn Kelly shouldn't have been fired for her comments on blackface as she was merely excersizing her right to free speech. Yet, it's not that simple. It's an example of an individual violating their contractual
    obligations (which, freedom of speech, does not cover owing to the very operation of a contract in that, some of those freedoms...including communication, are curbed to an extent to protect the interests of the institution). And the person signing that contract has full knowledge of what they can and can't do/say. Why is this so difficult to understand?

    I'd vouch against arguing for "a matter of personal concern"; it's a discrimination issue at worst and failure to abide per the policy, at best. Eyebrows will be raised especially since you, as an adult, should've known that any liberal or progressive policies of the school would contradict your personal beliefs (yet, you choose to take the job, anyway).

    That being said, I do not specialise in U.S. Constitutional law (at the moment, anyway). I'll look into this if only for my personal knowledge. If you insist on making such a confident assertion though...feel free to provide us with any precedents in favour of the unfairly dismissed, with respect to this matter.
    Last edited by Sebstan01; 12-09-2018 at 08:31 AM.
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    Not in this case as it was the school’s policy. You may think it’s stupid but addressing students in the way they request seems very reasonable to me and defendable - in general. And please, spare some silly example about a student wanting to be called a 30 word title every time, etc.
    It is stupid - and the courts will see it my way. You don't lie to students just like you don't -not- teach evolution as a biology teacher.
      
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    Originally Posted by tk217 View Post
    It is stupid - and the courts will see it my way. You don't lie to students just like you don't -not- teach evolution as a biology teacher.
    It’s been awhile but I actually took a course on laws governing schools, a chunk had to do with various constitutional protections. Now most of that was for students, I think this would be highly interesting if properly challenged, but I think the student would be seen to have a right to be addresssed the way they wanted to be based on sincere beliefs.

    If I understand your argument properly you would be asking the court to decide the national debate over gender pronouns, sex’s, etc. No court wants to do that.
    Last edited by miscinbro; 12-09-2018 at 08:27 AM.
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    It’s been awhile but I actually took a course on laws governing schools, a chunk had to do with various constitutional protections. Now most of that was for students, I think this would be highly interesting if properly challenged, but I think the student would be seen to have a right to be addresssed the way they wanted to be based on sincere beliefs.
    Civility is fine; claiming to be called klajdlakjsdlkasjdl;kajsdlkaj;dlajs;dljlja;ldjasld; aljda - with no scientific basis is not.

    See what I did there - you asking me not make up some bull****-longwinded twat of a name - but I did it anyway because the entire topic is inane.

    I would consider this to be the same level as some Indian names I deal with on a daily basis in the bay area.

    There is a gal with the name Vencaatanaraseemmha Puttaswamayya-Ramakhandran [I think I spelled it right]

    Literally their name. I call her Ven. Am I rude? Or just an uncultured swine in your mind?

    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    If I understand your argument properly you would be asking the court to decide the national debate over gender pronouns, sex’s, etc. No court wants to do that.
    I would just request the courts to be simplistic on this - if you're born a male or a female on your birth certificate - you'll be addressed that way until the age of majority in public schools to simplify the education process. After that if you choose to go to college and demand everyone call you hermpahrointersexulioucitious - so be it. I don't think the colleges will have a problem indulging your insanity.
    Last edited by tk217; 12-09-2018 at 08:34 AM.
      
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    Hold on boyos, this will be in the hands of the Supreme Court soon enough, and I have a sneaky suspicion that they will handle it properly.
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    Originally Posted by topperstyle View Post
    Hold on boyos, this will be in the hands of the Supreme Court soon enough, and I have a sneaky suspicion that they will handle it properly.
    This. All the more reason I won't be voting Dem. The same could not be said had Hillary already appointed two activist judges.
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    I said it before, but imagine printing out this article, and going back in time 5 years.
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    We know that there are innate differences between the brains of males and females. We know that neural development is pretty far down-stream in the development process, involving many genes (not just SPY). We know that development is highly stochastic. There are positive / negative feedback loops in the process to guardrail things, but the outcome is still probabilistic.

    There isn't a ton of research in this area from what i've seen, but it seems reasonable that the brain of a transgender person may be closer to the gender they identify as.

    It's incorrect to claim you can just assign a gender to someone by calling them by that name. It's ironic I need to point this out, since many people who push against transgender rights are also claiming this. Their logic ignores the brain and focuses entirely on sex organs.

    We also know that transgender kids who receive pushback when they request to be called e.g. "he" instead of "she" are at higher risk of suicide.

    Given all of this, I see what this teacher did as unacceptable and deserving of losing his job. He was warned that he would be fired and continued anyways.

    Those that want to ignore the biology of brain development here: Would it be wrong for this teacher to believe that a student with a learning disability were being intentionally dense and to impose his belief on the class by calling the student out? Would it be denying him his first amendment rights to fire him if he did so?
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    Teacher offered to use the "new name". Wtf is wrong with people where that's not enough. Give a lefty an inch and they want 10 miles.
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    Originally Posted by dashdash89 View Post
    We know that there are innate differences between the brains of males and females. We know that neural development is pretty far down-stream in the development process, involving many genes (not just SPY). We know that development is highly stochastic. There are positive / negative feedback loops in the process to guardrail things, but the outcome is still probabilistic.

    There isn't a ton of research in this area from what i've seen, but it seems reasonable that the brain of a transgender person may be closer to the gender they identify as.

    It's incorrect to claim you can just assign a gender to someone by calling them by that name. It's ironic I need to point this out, since many people who push against transgender rights are also claiming this. Their logic ignores the brain and focuses entirely on sex organs.

    We also know that transgender kids who receive pushback when they request to be called e.g. "he" instead of "she" are at higher risk of suicide.

    Given all of this, I see what this teacher did as unacceptable and deserving of losing his job. He was warned that he would be fired and continued anyways.

    Those that want to ignore the biology of brain development here: Would it be wrong for this teacher to believe that a student with a learning disability were being intentionally dense and to impose his belief on the class by calling the student out? Would it be denying him his first amendment rights to fire him if he did so?
    Gotta love when the left compares a transgender person to a disabled person to try and prove a point...
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    Originally Posted by dashdash89 View Post
    We know that there are innate differences between the brains of males and females. We know that neural development is pretty far down-stream in the development process, involving many genes (not just SPY). We know that development is highly stochastic. There are positive / negative feedback loops in the process to guardrail things, but the outcome is still probabilistic.

    There isn't a ton of research in this area from what i've seen, but it seems reasonable that the brain of a transgender person may be closer to the gender they identify as.

    It's incorrect to claim you can just assign a gender to someone by calling them by that name. It's ironic I need to point this out, since many people who push against transgender rights are also claiming this. Their logic ignores the brain and focuses entirely on sex organs.

    We also know that transgender kids who receive pushback when they request to be called e.g. "he" instead of "she" are at higher risk of suicide.

    Given all of this, I see what this teacher did as unacceptable and deserving of losing his job. He was warned that he would be fired and continued anyways.

    Those that want to ignore the biology of brain development here: Would it be wrong for this teacher to believe that a student with a learning disability were being intentionally dense and to impose his belief on the class by calling the student out? Would it be denying him his first amendment rights to fire him if he did so?
    Sorry--not a single thing you said can be scientifically verified and based on speculation at best and YouTube videos/Reddit anecdotes at worst. What can be scientifically verified, however, is the Brown university studying proving that the increase in so-called transgenderism is due to mimicry and attention-seeking/copycat behavior. Unfortuntely, it was censored for fear of hurting some feelings.
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    Gotta love when the left compares a transgender person to a disabled person to try and prove a point...
    Gotta love when someone offers a thought terminating cliche instead of actually addressing the argument

    Originally Posted by ButWhoWasNoodz View Post
    Sorry--not a single thing you said can be scientifically verified and based on speculation at best and YouTube videos/Reddit anecdotes at worst. What can be scientifically verified, however, is the Brown university studying proving that the increase in so-called transgenderism is due to mimicry and attention-seeking/copycat behavior. Unfortuntely, it was censored for fear of hurting some feelings.
    lmao

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19172387
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21094885
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...n_brain_mosaic
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...49763413003011


    Also, lookup Conrad Waddington's "epigenetic landscape". It's pretty cool stuff if you're actually interested
    Last edited by dashdash89; 12-09-2018 at 12:37 PM.
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