Bro Split?

[FDRD1]

I'd just like to say I don't intend on stepping on anyones toes here. My intention is not to offend! I'm merely trying to make my journey towards a better mirror image of myself as smooth as I can, and also enjoyable!

I messed around with SL5x5 and saw tiny differences, for example my legs have got better looking, my lats appear to actually semi-exist now and traps have appeared. Other than this, the assistance work I've added like curls/tris/abs have all counted towards somewhat creating a ball of bicep, tricep line and thickness and abs underneath all my fat.

Overall, I feel my entire time on this program hasn't given me what I wanted. I am definitely stronger, but look virtually the same at the same weight I started (recomped, bulked and cut) and basically look the same.

I then found Davis's F5 routine and it seems decent. I tried it out tonight and feel good, but my worry is I'm basically doing the same thing I have been all year.

I wanted to see some progress pictures of people who have been on this routine and found a very interesting thread:
/showthread.php?t=167639221&page=1

It's a good read, and has lead me to find alot more others who swear by brosplits and advise against wasting my time doing strength/ppl etc? And these guys have a tremendous amount of rep on this forum and all look great.. but so does Davis?

It got me thinking when I first ever worked out when I was 16-19. I ran my own version of a brosplit and worked out 5 days a week etc. I was probably weak but my body looked great in half the time? Also everyone I worked out with at the time, including guys I've started back at the gym with all used bro splits and they're miles ahead in terms of muscle built, but 1rm is only slightly stronger than me?

I mean I really am weak at the minute, I have recently deloaded to start this new program and currently can only bench 100 lbs. Which, according to the forum, theres not a whole lot of muscle able to be built with that amount of weight.. but these guys beg to differ?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Why aren't bro splits recommended around here anymore? I see alot of guys and girls who do shows doing brosplits on the forum also?
Again, I wouldn't like to offend anyone but if you look the same as me then I'd politely ask you dont comment as your opinion is only as good as mines.

[dski79]

I'd just like to say I don't intend on stepping on anyones toes here. My intention is not to offend! I'm merely trying to make my journey towards a better mirror image of myself as smooth as I can, and also enjoyable!

I messed around with SL5x5 and saw tiny differences, for example my legs have got better looking, my lats appear to actually semi-exist now and traps have appeared. Other than this, the assistance work I've added like curls/tris/abs have all counted towards somewhat creating a ball of bicep, tricep line and thickness and abs underneath all my fat.

Overall, I feel my entire time on this program hasn't given me what I wanted. I am definitely stronger, but look virtually the same at the same weight I started (recomped, bulked and cut) and basically look the same.

I then found Davis's F5 routine and it seems decent. I tried it out tonight and feel good, but my worry is I'm basically doing the same thing I have been all year.

I wanted to see some progress pictures of people who have been on this routine and found a very interesting thread:
/showthread.php?t=167639221&page=1

It's a good read, and has lead me to find alot more others who swear by brosplits and advise against wasting my time doing strength/ppl etc? And these guys have a tremendous amount of rep on this forum and all look great.. but so does Davis?

It got me thinking when I first ever worked out when I was 16-19. I ran my own version of a brosplit and worked out 5 days a week etc. I was probably weak but my body looked great in half the time? Also everyone I worked out with at the time, including guys I've started back at the gym with all used bro splits and they're miles ahead in terms of muscle built, but 1rm is only slightly stronger than me?

I mean I really am weak at the minute, I have recently deloaded to start this new program and currently can only bench 100 lbs. Which, according to the forum, theres not a whole lot of muscle able to be built with that amount of weight.. but these guys beg to differ?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Why aren't bro splits recommended around here anymore? I see alot of guys and girls who do shows doing brosplits on the forum also?
Again, I wouldn't like to offend anyone but if you look the same as me then I'd politely ask you dont comment as your opinion is only as good as mines.

your post is a valid question absolutly! youre not offending anyone at all, cuz your trying to learn and thats what this forum is for!!! and you didnt say "this is why bro split is better etc" but rather asked the question so you can understand as to why! im not gonna get into why a novice program is better than a bro split as a beginner, cuz there is so many reasons as to why! so ill let everyone else explain that! you are probably gonna say "then why did you comment?" and my answer would be that, your question is a very good question. And i wholeheartedly believe, that if you dont BELIEVE in something, then what is the use of doing it! which is where you are at! i could respond as to why but im not great into convincing others therefore ill leave it up to people that have a great understanding as to why and can write it out just the way it should be! with all that being said though, you deserve to know why you are directed to F5, SS, etc etc!

[TAWS6]

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Why aren't bro splits recommended around here anymore? I see alot of guys and girls who do shows doing brosplits on the forum also?
Again, I wouldn't like to offend anyone but if you look the same as me then I'd politely ask you dont comment as your opinion is only as good as mines.

The short answer is because every study done has shown them to be an inferior way to train when compared to full body or upper/lower for natural lifters. The pros don't have to worry about protein synthesis since their bodies are in a consistent anabolic state.

[Samson2236]

I definitely believe everybody works differently. You have to find what works best for you and what you can stick too. I personally recommend coolcicadas program It’s a ppl which is similar to a bro split in my opinion. I’d give you the link but this site won’t let me since I don’t have enough post counts. Search for it on this website if interested

I did fierce 5 and strong lifts and made little progress. Since I started coolcicadas program my squats have gone from 205 to 345lbs for reps. My other compounds have jumped almost 100lbs in a month and a half. I’m not knocking on full body I think it’s great but if it’s not working no harm in trying something that’ll keep you going.

This program is great and has good mix of strength and hypertrophy in my opinion.

[FDRD1]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I definitely believe everybody works differently. You have to find what works best for you and what you can stick too. I personally recommend coolcicadas program It’s a ppl which is similar to a bro split in my opinion. I’d give you the link but this site won’t let me since I don’t have enough post counts. Search for it on this website if interested

I did fierce 5 and strong lifts and made little progress. Since I started coolcicadas program my squats have gone from 205 to 345lbs for reps. My other compounds have jumped almost 100lbs in a month and a half. I’m not knocking on full body I think it’s great but if it’s not working no harm in trying something that’ll keep you going.

This program is great and has good mix of strength and hypertrophy in my opinion.

I believe I've found the thread. Looks similar to a brosplit, I agree, but don't you find it weird that the closer you get to a brosplit the better reviews are in terms of muscle development? Or am I missing something?

Also, how does progression factor in with Coolcicadas? It doesn't have FAQ's I can see? Thanks dude!

[FaIIen]

Since I started coolcicadas program my squats have gone from 205 to 345lbs for reps. My other compounds have jumped almost 100lbs in a month and a half.

Yeah that doesn't just happen in 6 weeks unless you have previous training experience or started absurdly low. Either way, the drastic difference didn't happen because of your choice of program. But you have to realize that those programs were created for very different audiences, and have extreme differences in volume.


On topic: There's nothing magical about bro splits. Your life wont end if you decide to do one - but pretty much all research points to frequencies of 2-4 to be superior compared to 1. As a beginner - you'll get less frequent practice on the main lifts doing bro splits and will inevitably progress slower.

[FDRD1]

As a beginner - you'll get less frequent practice on the main lifts doing bro splits and will inevitably progress slower.

Could you define 'progress' please, buddy? Do you mean strength numbers or muscle gain?

In an effort not to listen to one piece of advice and run with it because it sounds better to me, I have registered on a number of forums asking this same thing and browsed even more. It sems to be common amongst big guys suggesting PPL for noobies progressing onto a brosplit, it would only appear the advice is generally different on this forum, which has been described elsewhere as a place ran by "powerlifters and people focused on strength".

Again, my only goal is to get a more muscular physique, nothing else!

Edit; its worth stating that the training style recommended around here suits my timing to a T! 3 days per week, in and out in 45 mins, sometimes an hour! By reading anything different and pursuing any interest in doing anything else such as PPL or a brosplit, generally training 5/6 days per week for longer doesn't sound too fun, lol; but I am results driven, and if I progress better then I'd definitely do it!

[SuffolkPunch]

Could you define 'progress' please, buddy? Do you mean strength numbers or muscle gain?

In an effort not to listen to one piece of advice and run with it because it sounds better to me, I have registered on a number of forums asking this same thing and browsed even more. It sems to be common amongst big guys suggesting PPL for noobies progressing onto a brosplit, it would only appear the advice is generally different on this forum, which has been described elsewhere as a place ran by "powerlifters and people focused on strength".

Again, my only goal is to get a more muscular physique, nothing else!

Edit; its worth stating that the training style recommended around here suits my timing to a T! 3 days per week, in and out in 45 mins, sometimes an hour! By reading anything different and pursuing any interest in doing anything else such as PPL or a brosplit, generally training 5/6 days per week for longer doesn't sound too fun, lol; but I am results driven, and if I progress better then I'd definitely do it!

This issue is discussed in detail in the strength vs. mass sticky thread which you should read IMO.

Strength is a very good measure of progress, even for muscle gain. Perhaps not 1 rep maximums (which have a large technical element) - but an increase in your 8 or 10RM over time would inevitably indicate more muscle.

Trying to measure muscle gain directly is too hard since the methods we have available are too error prone. So strength is a very good proxy.

[TAWS6]

, it would only appear the advice is generally different on this forum, which has been described elsewhere as a place ran by "powerlifters and people focused on strength".

!

Its difficult to have strength without size. Most experts share similar opinions. That's why most novice programs are full body (Reg Parks 5x5, ICF, SS, F5, Gray Skull) and intermediate programs are mostly upper/lower (Lyle Mcdonald's GBR, Eric Helms U/L or L/U/LPP, 5/3/1 BBB, West Side, ect. There is nothing wrong with a 6 day PPL program either but as a novice lifter you want to grow with the lowest amount of volume possible because when that stops working you can then add more. Doing PPL as a novice really gives you no where to go once it stops working since you would be starting with a high volume program. I think the data is very clear now and sites like T nation who use to push non stop bro science are even coming around lol


https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/threa...r-alternatives

https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/body...workouts-suck/

https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle...ss-gains.html/

https://www.t-nation.com/training/bo...plits-are-dead

[FDRD1]

This issue is discussed in detail in the strength vs. mass sticky thread which you should read IMO.

Strength is a very good measure of progress, even for muscle gain. Perhaps not 1 rep maximums (which have a large technical element) - but an increase in your 8 or 10RM over time would inevitably indicate more muscle.

Trying to measure muscle gain directly is too hard since the methods we have available are too error prone. So strength is a very good proxy.

I read something somewhere, and I do think it was Lyle McDonald, something Blaha definitely echoed but I know his name isn't worth anything anymore, that it's not all about how much you lift in terms of bodybuilding, its what you do with the weight and utilise it?

But then I've also read that hypertrophy occurs when you push your muscle to its limit. Sets of 5, whereby you'd struggle with a 6th rep is one way to do this but higher reps and more total sets is another? Also a benefit is that you'd be using less weight, so the risk of injury is less.

Its difficult to have strength without size. Most experts share similar opinions. That's why most novice programs are full body (Reg Parks 5x5, ICF, SS, F5, Gray Skull) and intermediate programs are mostly upper/lower (Lyle Mcdonald's GBR, Eric Helms U/L or L/U/LPP, 5/3/1 BBB, West Side, ect. There is nothing wrong with a 6 day PPL program either but as a novice lifter you want to grow with the lowest amount of volume possible because when that stops working you can then add more. Doing PPL as a novice really gives you no where to go once it stops working since you would be starting with a high volume program. I think the data is very clear now and sites like T nation who use to push non stop bro science are even coming around lol

I do understand this, but wouldn't you agree there are far more numbers of people saying they see physical changes in their bodies in a few months running brosplits than anybody running SS, SL, F5 etc? Anyone I've seen only talk about the insane number increases, which is amazing, but not my primary interest.

I guess one way to measure it is the progression in reps (volume) before increasing the weight, but always operating at a higher rep count; like AllPro said: "You could start with any thing you wanted to and end it anywhere you wanted to. I just chose to keep it in a range that would split the difference between size and strength for the majority. And be appropriate for ALL of the exercises. I don't think 3 rep calve press's would be very productive or 20 rep bench press's"

To me, it just appears that the sheer amount of people who I see personally in the gym, my friends included and people on various forums all seem to get pretty jacked in approximately a year, but generally they have transformed their bodies in 4-6 months using high volume bro splits.

I could show you my two close friends who started lifting around the same time as me who have went from fat to jacked, roughly same stats starting out as me, biceps now fill out shirts and their overall physique is great in the same amount of time as me.. even though I could probably outlift them in terms of weight. How can I tell them that what they're doing is wrong when they look like they have years of training on me? Lol.

[FaIIen]

Could you define 'progress' please, buddy? Do you mean strength numbers or muscle gain?

You shouldn't differentiate the two. You wont increase your 5RM much by neurological adaptations. You'll need to grow muscle to be able to move more weight, which your body will do if you provide sufficient resources.

[FaIIen]

I could show you my two close friends who started lifting around the same time as me who have went from fat to jacked, roughly same stats starting out as me, biceps now fill out shirts and their overall physique is great in the same amount of time as me.. even though I could probably outlift them in terms of weight. How can I tell them that what they're doing is wrong when they look like they have years of training on me? Lol.

You're lying to yourself to justify doing bro splits. You're over exaggerating. Just do the bro split if you want to.

[FDRD1]

You shouldn't differentiate the two. You wont increase your 5RM much by neurological adaptations. You'll need to grow muscle to be able to move more weight, which your body will do if you provide sufficient resources.

Why is it, generally speaking, strong guys are typically just fat or normal framed with great strength abilities and muscular guys, whilst aren't weak, but are never as strong?

Given that outlook on it, this method seems to want muscular guys to be strong when this was never the norm for bodybuilders to adapt to over the years, it was always high volume splits they did. "Fluff and puff" I believe the term is? Strength and conditioning is a completely different way of training, no?

Like fighters etc.. it will yield muscular results but they won't be optimal for hypertrophy reasons.

You're lying to yourself to justify doing bro splits. You're over exaggerating. Just do the bro split if you want to.

I am not lying, I'm trying to learn. If I want to do a brosplit, or any other form of training then I simply would without the consent or approval of anyone, lol. I will post photos of my friends, but I'll expect you to tell me he's either on juice or it's a longer time frame. But I'll do it anyway.

[SuffolkPunch]

I don't think you've read/understood the article I mentioned. Instead you made a dismissive and vague reply which tells me you've already made your mind up - not being as objective as you claim.

[FaIIen]

Jesus fking Christ. Fine, let's get it over with.

Why is it, generally speaking, strong guys are typically just fat or normal framed with great strength abilities and muscular guys, whilst aren't weak, but are never as strong?

Where, how and why did you come up with this? How do you define strength? If we're just talking about something arbitrary like an 1RM bench press for untrained people - sure. A fatty weighing 200 kg will probably bench more than a skinny 50 kg twig that someone could call "ripped" since he has visible abs (lol).
- Mass moves mass.
- The more you weigh, the more muscle mass you probably have. It's easier to maintain muscle mass at a higher %bf.

The latter part, "muscular guys aren't strong", is just retarded. False. If you're wondering why Jay Cutler isn't crushing world records in powerlifting - it's because he doesn't train his 1RM's. Yes, neurological adaptations and leverages that are determined by genetics do play a part in 1RM strength.

Given that outlook on it, this method seems to want muscular guys to be strong when this was never the norm for bodybuilders to adapt to over the years, it was always high volume splits they did. "Fluff and puff" I believe the term is? Strength and conditioning is a completely different way of training, no?

That's just garbage on all levels again, none of what you said is true. What do you mean by "strength and conditioning"?

Like fighters etc.. it will yield muscular results but they won't be optimal for hypertrophy reasons.

What. I don't even know what you're trying to say. Are you surprised that training for fighting doesn't make you stage ready?

I am not lying, I'm trying to learn. If I want to do a brosplit, or any other form of training then I simply would without the consent or approval of anyone, lol. I will post photos of my friends, but I'll expect you to tell me he's either on juice or it's a longer time frame. But I'll do it anyway.

Be honest with yourself. I couldn't care less about what you do or don't do.

[FDRD1]

I don't think you've read/understood the article I mentioned. Instead you made a dismissive and vague reply which tells me you've already made your mind up - not being as objective as you claim.

My apologies, I did not mean to come across that way. I've read your thread on size vs strength and it seems to be the base of what is said around these forums, but not elsewhere. Elsewhere they actually promote going after what you desire, size or strength and sticking with it from the get go. No setting bench marks for strength gains before incorporating volume.

Is it not just your opinion that 5x5 will yield the same amount of muscle as high volume for a noobie?


This is a close friend of mines. He achieved this physique in 6ish months and has only done brosplits.

Before - ibb.co/QPYkC31
Before - ibb.co/WkXY6W8
After - ibb.co/4ZRcRNj
After - ibb.co/gRpbcy1

My other friend has had similar results within the exact same time frame as us, but my body physically hasn't changed.. but I squat more than this man? Dl more, curl more, bench more?

[FDRD1]

Jesus fking Christ. Fine, let's get it over with.




Where, how and why did you come up with this? How do you define strength? If we're just talking about something arbitrary like an 1RM bench press for untrained people - sure. A fatty weighing 200 kg will probably bench more than a skinny 50 kg twig that someone could call "ripped" since he has visible abs (lol).
- Mass moves mass.
- The more you weigh, the more muscle mass you probably have. It's easier to maintain muscle mass at a higher %bf.

The latter part, "muscular guys aren't strong", is just retarded. False. If you're wondering why Jay Cutler isn't crushing world records in powerlifting - it's because he doesn't train his 1RM's. Yes, neurological adaptations and leverages that are determined by genetics do play a part in 1RM strength.



That's just garbage on all levels again, none of what you said is true. What do you mean by "strength and conditioning"?



What. I don't even know what you're trying to say. Are you surprised that training for fighting doesn't make you stage ready?





Be honest with yourself. I couldn't care less about what you do or don't do.

Whats with the superiority complex?

You've just told me that training 5x5, focusing on strength as a factor of progression to build muscle is what you'd recommend for a noobie wanting to build as much muscle as possible, even if he does not care about numbers?

I'm saying fighters, purely for example, train for strength and focus on numbers going up all the time, same with powerlifters etc but they don't get all these gains in mass you claim that other people will if they do so?

[Samson2236]

Yeah that doesn't just happen in 6 weeks unless you have previous training experience or started absurdly low. Either way, the drastic difference didn't happen because of your choice of program. But you have to realize that those programs were created for very different audiences, and have extreme differences in volume.


On topic: There's nothing magical about bro splits. Your life wont end if you decide to do one - but pretty much all research points to frequencies of 2-4 to be superior compared to 1. As a beginner - you'll get less frequent practice on the main lifts doing bro splits and will inevitably progress slower.

your right what do I know my apologies

[jk202]

You're lying to yourself to justify doing bro splits. You're over exaggerating. Just do the bro split if you want to.

Brosplits work. PPL works. U/L works. Fullbody works. You'll get out what you put in. People way overthink this ****. I made some pretty damn good gains over the course of 5 years on a self made brosplit. Since have switched to doing my own PPL.

Yes, it's a good idea for all beginners to focus on strength training for awhile to build a solid base

[rsid97]

Man your argument has more loop holes in it than a chunk of mouldy cheese, its impossible to counter argue every mistake you're making.

I've read your thread on size vs strength and it seems to be the base of what is said around these forums, but not elsewhere.

Have you maybe considered actually reading through all the peer reviewed published literature and then seeing who's 'opinion' aligns more closely with it? I'll save you the time and say that Suffolk is the correct here.

Elsewhere they actually promote going after what you desire, size or strength and sticking with it from the get go. No setting bench marks for strength gains before incorporating volume.

Yes because people 'elsewhere' clearly lack an understanding of minimal effective volume and how that varies as you progress. Spend some time looking up Dr Mike Isratael's work. Read, watch and listen to everything the man has to say about how much volume you need to be using. You would have understood this if you took a moment to listen to TAWS6's post rather than just glossing over it. How much volume someone *needs* for progress (be it strength or size) is dependent on where they are in their lifting career. Newbies need less than intermediates, and intermediates need less than advanced lifters. If you pile on the volume as a newbie, you may get closer to your maximum adaptive volume and get a tiny little bit more progress but you're going to hit a wall which can't be climbed over when you do plateau (which you eventually will). By jacking up the volume for a newbie, you're winning a battle but losing the war.

Is it not just your opinion that 5x5 will yield the same amount of muscle as high volume for a noobie?

Loop holes, Loop holes, Loop holes. First off you're not even defining high volume. You're not taking into account how much of that volume is junk volume. You've completely ignored frequency and recovery. But most importantly you've ignored progressive overload. You're over stressing the volume criteria. If your program is hitting the minimum amount of volume that a newbie needs to grow, then what's going to matter is how much strength progress can be made. You can have all the volume in the world, but if you're not having some form of progressive overload then you're not getting anywhere.

Also, as a side note, you're totally confusing the difference between training for general strength (which is necessary for muscle growth) and being a powerlifter (or a strong guy in your words). The big fat guys that you're talking about are focusing their training around improving their 1RM on the big 3, that's very different from running Fierce 5 for overall muscular development.

[FaIIen]

Whats with the superiority complex?

Your ignorance annoys me, absolutely disregarding scientific evidence. Your arguments don't really make sense anyway, they aren't helping your case.

You've just told me that training 5x5, focusing on strength as a factor of progression to build muscle is what you'd recommend for a noobie wanting to build as much muscle as possible, even if he does not care about numbers?

And I stand by it. Focus on the basics and learn how to lift. The actual skill requires practice. The more frequently you get to practice - the better. You can be squatting 3x10 on as many variations as you like on your bro split, but if you're not moving more than a plate per side - I can guarantee that the dude next to you doing 3 plates per side on his SL5x5 will be bigger and stronger in pretty much all aspects.

I'm saying fighters, purely for example, train for strength and focus on numbers going up all the time, same with powerlifters etc but they don't get all these gains in mass you claim that other people will if they do so?

No, fighters don't train specificially for 1RM strength. They can't afford to carry lots of muscle mass either. Powerlifters and fighters probably have as much common in their training as swimmers and strongmen (Na, probably not even that much).

This makes the rest of your post redundant, but I'll comment on the question about mass: 3x10 will yield similar gains in terms of hypertrophy as 5x5 when effort is equated. There's nothing magical about set lengths, volume drives hypertrophy when relative intensity is reasonable.

Do I train with just 5x5's? Hell no. But we're not equally advanced either.

[WolfRose7]

All powerlifters are fat with no muscle huh....


**** someone tell these guys







Guess they missed the memo that training to be strong doesn't give you any muscle (somehow)...

[etet1919]

Why is it, generally speaking, strong guys are typically just fat or normal framed with great strength abilities and muscular guys, whilst aren't weak, but are never as strong?

Given that outlook on it, this method seems to want muscular guys to be strong when this was never the norm for bodybuilders to adapt to over the years, it was always high volume splits they did. "Fluff and puff" I believe the term is? Strength and conditioning is a completely different way of training, no?

Like fighters etc.. it will yield muscular results but they won't be optimal for hypertrophy reasons.



I am not lying, I'm trying to learn. If I want to do a brosplit, or any other form of training then I simply would without the consent or approval of anyone, lol. I will post photos of my friends, but I'll expect you to tell me he's either on juice or it's a longer time frame. But I'll do it anyway.

"fluff and puff," I believe the term is .......you are hysterical

[FDRD1]

Thanks for the advice guys. I just don't get how it's not advised to train for how you want to look, is all.

Strength - low sets and heavy
Hypertrophy - high sets and lighter
Endurance - very high and lighter

Doesn't more sets > more weight moved > more muscle gained?

If 5x5 wouldn't see me gain muscle through with that style of training, then why not just incorporate the style of training that will?

For example, myself - I have lifted alot heavier than I can now at a lighter weight and still looked bad, rsid97 - you appear similar. That looks like a good amount of weight you can lift in your photos, but your body doesn't look like you work out?

Infact Samson and jk202 have pretty damn good physiques, probably the best on this thread, and both have only made their progress on splits/ppls? Everyone I've seen run a split look great? It seems like they only advise running a strength program because its morally the right thing to do or something, lol.

I mean, Fallen - you look good and all, but look at your progress photos over 7 years then look at Jk202s over 4.. That dude could probably glide with those lats? And look at Samsons progress? Thats insane and exactly what I've been striving for, and they both appear to have done similar things; both in which they would get bashed for like I am. And my friend? Nobody has acknowledged he done that in 6 months on a split?

In 7 years I may look like you, Fallen, through training the way you recommend, but I want to do it alot quicker is all. Please don't take offence my friend, this is not what my post is about.

I hope I don't look like too much of a deluded noob, but if you want a Ferrari you copy the rich dude who has it as opposed to Joe down the street who knows better.. or is this somehow not the case in bodybuilding?

"fluff and puff," I believe the term is .......you are hysterical

Direct quote from Mike Israetel on a livefeed not so long ago. I guess it's different because he said it now, huh?

[jk202]

Hypertrophy - high sets and lighter



Infact Samson and jk202 have pretty damn good physiques, look at Jk202s over 4.. That dude could probably glide with those lats? And look at Samsons progress? Thats insane and exactly what I've been striving for, and they both appear to have done similar things; both in which they would get bashed for like I am. And my friend? Nobody has acknowledged he done that in 6 months on a split?

I appreciate the kind words man.... but hypertrophy training isn't high reps with light weight. It's quality reps with heavy weight. You can't do that without a solid strength foundation. Most of my main output movements are in the 6-8 rep range.

While i [personally] disagree with the fullbody or upper lower approached that's so loved on here, they're not wrong, i just don't enjoy training that way. They're decent structured programs that help newbies stick to something and progress on it.

If you really want to learn a lot about hypertrophy training, check out Joe Benett's website (hypertrophycoach.com). it will help clear up some misconceptions you have about it.

I do vehemently disagree with the logic that having good numbers on the "big 3 lifts" is directly proportional to building muscle. Yes, strength and muscle are directly correlated, but there is a difference between moving weight to build muscle vs moving weight to have good numbers

[FaIIen]

Thanks for the advice guys. I just don't get how it's not advised to train for how you want to look, is all.

Strength - low sets and heavy
Hypertrophy - high sets and lighter
Endurance - very high and lighter

Doesn't more sets > more weight moved > more muscle gained?

If 5x5 wouldn't see me gain muscle through with that style of training, then why not just incorporate the style of training that will?

You're missing the point. If you weren't a novice - we wouldn't be advising you to do a novice program.

Everything you stated above is a huger over simplification. Read this carefully: https://bayesianbodybuilding.com/opt...rogram-design/

Infact Samson and jk202 have pretty damn good physiques, probably the best on this thread, and both have only made their progress on splits/ppls? Everyone I've seen run a split look great? It seems like they only advise running a strength program because its morally the right thing to do or something, lol.

Low frequency is simply a worse option for a beginner. Nobody has said that bro splits don't work.

I mean, Fallen - you look good and all, but look at your progress photos over 7 years then look at Jk202s over 4.. That dude could probably glide with those lats? And look at Samsons progress? Thats insane and exactly what I've been striving for, and they both appear to have done similar things; both in which they would get bashed for like I am. And my friend? Nobody has acknowledged he done that in 6 months on a split?

With all due respect, all you can see from your friends pictures are his biceps. Appears to have lost some weight too.

In 7 years I may look like you, Fallen, through training the way you recommend, but I want to do it alot quicker is all. Please don't take offence my friend, this is not what my post is about.

I haven't been consistent with my training over the past 7 years, university life (drinking), travelling (drinking) and working have taken their toll. Where I'm at is achievable a lot faster with dedicated smart training. Not offended, don't worry.

I hope I don't look like too much of a deluded noob, but if you want a Ferrari you copy the rich dude who has it as opposed to Joe down the street who knows better.. or is this somehow not the case in bodybuilding?

Direct quote from Mike Israetel on a livefeed not so long ago. I guess it's different because he said it now, huh?

That probably wasn't a piece of advice related to training novices. Mike's also an advocate of hitting muscle groups > 2 times a week.

As has been said - do a bro split if you want to. It just isn't advised for novices.

[rsid97]

For example, myself - I have lifted alot heavier than I can now at a lighter weight and still looked bad, rsid97 - you appear similar. That looks like a good amount of weight you can lift in your photos, but your body doesn't look like you work out?

Well thanks for conveniently avoiding all the scientific claims that I put forth and choosing to come at me instead. But just since you chose to take that route and not actually listen to what was said, here you go -

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/attac...1&d=1540963099

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/attac...1&d=1540963113

80.5lbs heavier than the first photo, while improving my abs. Shoulders grown by over 8 inches, chest grown over 12 inches, legs have gained 14 inches each and arms have gained 6 inches each. All the while my waist has stayed at a narrow 27 inches which only further shows how much of this was lean gains.If this is insufficient progress by your standards then you need a reality check and should probably find a new hobby (or pray that you have above average genetics). Not that I expect you to actually listen at this point since you've clearly made up your mind and are just grasping at straws to obtain confirmation for what you want to hear.

And no, it didn't take 7 years.

[gcoulson]

Sounds like you've already made up your mind that bro splits are the way to go. So just go do it and see how it works. If you're not seeing the progress you want after 6 months or so, start evaluating your approach.

[Squid24]

[health4life24]

Bro splits may not be recommended around here but that doesn’t mean they don’t work. It depends on what works for you. Only through trial and error can you determine what the best routine is for yourself.