Bro Split?

[health4life24]

I understand this, but suggesting this is met with bitter taste.

It doesn’t really matter to me whether I have the approval of other posters or not. I don’t believe in jumping on a bandwagon just for the sake of not going against the popular opinion. The fact is there is nothing wrong with bro splits for some people. For some they work. That doesn’t mean they are right for everyone though.

And I don’t mean that in a negative way I’m just saying it doesn’t matter whether everyone agrees or not. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[Gaston40]

It doesn’t really matter to me whether I have the approval of other posters or not. I don’t believe in jumping on a bandwagon just for the sake of not going against the popular opinion. The fact is there is nothing wrong with bro splits for some people. For some they work. That doesn’t mean they are right for everyone though.

And I don’t mean that in a negative way I’m just saying it doesn’t matter whether everyone agrees or not. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I don't think people are saying they don't work. I think what they're saying is its gonna be slower progression, more imbalances and not entirely the best choice for novice or intermediate lifters to be running. Especially as a natty

[Squid24]

I like to use Bro splits for my De-Load time

[TAWS6]

I don't think people are saying they don't work. I think what they're saying is its gonna be slower progression, more imbalances and not entirely the best choice for novice or intermediate lifters to be running. Especially as a natty

Yeah pretty much. Novice lifters don't have weak points. Their entire body is a weak. A specialization routine would make no sense for someone who can't even squat 315.

[Squid24]

Yeah pretty much. Novice lifters don't have weak points. Their entire body is a weak. A specialization routine would make no sense for someone who can't even squat 315.

Pending age and Health issues?

Asking for a friend....

lol

[Farley1324]

Have a look around just this thread, including my friend. Some of these huge dudes who recommend I noobies do 5x5 have all done brosplits themselves, and not actually practised what they're preaching; and I mean that with no disrespect intended. Just stating some facts. It's not just some*one*. It's everyone I've came across who have done brosplits look awesome, even just these past few commenters!

If brosplits aren't optimal for a noobie now, when do they suddenly become optimal? When I have met specific strength goals?

When they take illegal drugs is the most apt answer to this question

And most people won't recommend a novice use a 5x5 here, they are mostly 3x5 based for the main movements if they are any Xx5

[etet1919]

Not everyone takes illegal drugs to gain strength and muscular development. But it is common sense to first build a good strong foundation, and after accessing what your goals may be, picking a program that suits them. When first starting out in weightlifting, it is best not to implement volume the way a professional bodybuilder would.

[FDRD1]

When they take illegal drugs is the most apt answer to this question

And most people won't recommend a novice use a 5x5 here, they are mostly 3x5 based for the main movements if they are any Xx5

Could I ask, what's the big difference between 3x5 and 5x5? Before anyone says 10 reps, what I mean is why is a difference of 10 reps recommended over others? And what could be achieved through high reps, lower weight but the same weight progression?

For example;

3x5 100kg increasing 5kg every workout
5x8 40kg increasing 5kg every workout

[Farley1324]

Could I ask, what's the big difference between 3x5 and 5x5? Before anyone says 10 reps, what I mean is why is a difference of 10 reps recommended over others? And what could be achieved through high reps, lower weight but the same weight progression?

For example;

3x5 100kg increasing 5kg every workout
5x8 40kg increasing 5kg every workout

Because 5 sets of 5 reps done heavy across is a lot to recover from in a mere 48 hours, to do it again but heavier (or close enough when alternating bench/press as is typical).

Changing the intensity changes things, higher reps and lower weight doesn't build strength quite as well...possibly the heavier volume totals you tend to get can take even longer to recover from but than 5's but now we're getting into lots of variables. It also seems more likely to have form breakdown with higher rep sets at a high RPE. Sets of 5 work and work well, people have known this for a long time.

If you can do 3x5 with 100kg, doing 5x8 with 40kg is a joke.

[etet1919]

Could I ask, what's the big difference between 3x5 and 5x5? Before anyone says 10 reps, what I mean is why is a difference of 10 reps recommended over others? And what could be achieved through high reps, lower weight but the same weight progression?

For example;

3x5 100kg increasing 5kg every workout
5x8 40kg increasing 5kg every workout

I know this is not a scientific answer, but the 3x5 wk plays more to "strength gains," while the 5x8 wk is thought to "increase hypertrophy?" But, imho, one could say both examples may not be too different in terms of the potential for muscle mass and strength gains within any given structured program? Please don't bomb me with red if I am wrong...only kidding. Maybe the tempo of each wk could be the deciding achievement factor, given the weight you used as an example, among other factors.

I initially began weightlifting in the 3x5 rep range, and I found it built a good strength base for me, personally.

[FDRD1]

I know this is not a scientific answer, but the 3x5 wk plays more to "strength gains," while the 5x8 wk is thought to "increase hypertrophy?" But, imho, one could say both examples may not be too different in terms of the potential for muscle mass and strength gains within any given structured program? Please don't bomb me with red if I am wrong...only kidding. Maybe the tempo of each wk could be the deciding achievement factor, given the weight you used as an example, among other factors.

I initially began weightlifting in the 3x5 rep range, and I found it built a good strength base for me, personally.

For me, when I train arms for example with 3x10 I feel they look alot better. For example, my OHP is insanely weak, my bench was reset this whole time but my tricep has defined and thickened quite a bit just using 3x10 tricep extension.

I have no idea if this is logical, but: when I used to prowl these forums when I was 15, the advice used to be high reps, a little lower weight will tear more muscle fibers down, resulting in more growth in the muscle.

The general recommended sweet spot was 8-12 reps for 5 sets I believe, just like you guys recommend 3x5.

Surely by that logic if 3x5 is recommended for 'building a strength base', then higher reps must be good for building a muscle base? Thats all I'm reallt trying to get at here..

I personally enjoy training high reps, lower weight where I won't injur myself etc.

[LactoseTolerant]

None of that matters much if your choices are light weight and lighter weight.

[etet1919]

For me, when I train arms for example with 3x10 I feel they look alot better. For example, my OHP is insanely weak, my bench was reset this whole time but my tricep has defined and thickened quite a bit just using 3x10 tricep extension.

I have no idea if this is logical, but: when I used to prowl these forums when I was 15, the advice used to be high reps, a little lower weight will tear more muscle fibers down, resulting in more growth in the muscle.

The general recommended sweet spot was 8-12 reps for 5 sets I believe, just like you guys recommend 3x5.

Surely by that logic if 3x5 is recommended for 'building a strength base', then higher reps must be good for building a muscle base? Thats all I'm reallt trying to get at here..

I personally enjoy training high reps, lower weight where I won't injur myself etc.

Yes, the general "recommendation" for building hypertrophy is the 8-12 rep range (you've seen a lot of improvement in yourself using that range!) and I believe it's a good way to see gains, yet not put a lot of pressure on one's self to perform at a more "maximal" level. Especially if one has to work around injuries. But I'm sure you already know people could get injured using light weight and "proper" form, too. Is the answer to just work within one range and not venture out in the future when better?

[Farley1324]

For me, when I train arms for example with 3x10 I feel they look alot better. For example, my OHP is insanely weak, my bench was reset this whole time but my tricep has defined and thickened quite a bit just using 3x10 tricep extension.

I have no idea if this is logical, but: when I used to prowl these forums when I was 15, the advice used to be high reps, a little lower weight will tear more muscle fibers down, resulting in more growth in the muscle.

The general recommended sweet spot was 8-12 reps for 5 sets I believe, just like you guys recommend 3x5.

Surely by that logic if 3x5 is recommended for 'building a strength base', then higher reps must be good for building a muscle base? Thats all I'm reallt trying to get at here..

I personally enjoy training high reps, lower weight where I won't injur myself etc.

We're talking about novices here. Getting stronger with progressive overload is bigger and stronger.

None of that matters much if your choices are light weight and lighter weight.

And there's that ^


To take from davis' thread

[FDRD1]

We're talking about novices here. Getting stronger with progressive overload is bigger and stronger.



And there's that ^


To take from davis' thread

So a program with 3x10 is better for mass?

And I've been trying to remember this link to share, and eventually found it! How is this possible?

skinnyfattransformation(DOT)com/why-you-shouldnt-do-starting-strength-as-a-beginner/

Edit:

I've noticed posts from a while back all seem to recommend high volume training regardless, and recognise that this is a preferred method for muse growth. That, combined with linear progression surely is a win-win?

..a 5x5 like Bill Starr's is designed for strength increases, not necessarily muscle growth, as in , bigger muscles. As the OP's have already said, higher-rep training is better for hypertrophy. If you're looking for strength, though, Starr/Madcow 5x5 is an excellent program.

But then I'm thinking, what exactly can I build with 10x10 light weight? If I build my strength up quickly over the next 10 or so weeks using starting strength, then move on to 10x10 with a good weight for example, I might look better quicker?

[etet1919]

For me, when I train arms for example with 3x10 I feel they look alot better. For example, my OHP is insanely weak, my bench was reset this whole time but my tricep has defined and thickened quite a bit just using 3x10 tricep extension.

I have no idea if this is logical, but: when I used to prowl these forums when I was 15, the advice used to be high reps, a little lower weight will tear more muscle fibers down, resulting in more growth in the muscle.

The general recommended sweet spot was 8-12 reps for 5 sets I believe, just like you guys recommend 3x5.

Surely by that logic if 3x5 is recommended for 'building a strength base', then higher reps must be good for building a muscle base? Thats all I'm reallt trying to get at here..

I personally enjoy training high reps, lower weight where I won't injur myself etc.

Am I correct that you are just trying to tell me, personally, to be careful? I do understand your point and I do appreciate your concern, I do (I'm not being sarcastic). I admit my own routines could be very tough at times. But I've found that the more often I train "intensely," the more efficient I become at it. Being that I have some injuries, I have had no choice but to make adjustments. Can I ask you if ever miss training for "maximum" strength? Because I do.

[FDRD1]

Am I correct that you are just trying to tell me, personally, to be careful? I do understand your point and I do appreciate your concern, I do (I'm not being sarcastic). I admit my own routines could be very tough at times. But I've found that the more often I train "intensely," the more efficient I become at it. Being that I have some injuries, I have had no choice but to make adjustments. Can I ask you ever miss training for "maximum" strength? Because I do.

If I'm being honest I'm trying to extract some of what you do to review what I do.. because you look great! I've been strength training for some time and I feel so exhausted/mental focus gone that it's just so easy to say I'll pick it back up on Monday and miss a Friday training session.

[etet1919]

If I'm being honest I'm trying to extract some of what you do to review what I do.. because you look great! I've been strength training for some time and I feel so exhausted/mental focus gone that it's just so easy to say I'll pick it back up on Monday and miss a Friday training session.

Wait, so you were just trying to flirt with me? Not Farley?

[Farley1324]

So a program with 3x10 is better for mass?

And I've been trying to remember this link to share, and eventually found it! How is this possible?

skinnyfattransformation(DOT)com/why-you-shouldnt-do-starting-strength-as-a-beginner/

Edit:

"With my low starting strength numbers and slow progression I knew that I was in the bottom 1% in terms of genetics for lifting.

But that didn’t stop me for lifting heavy.

After continuously pushing myself, I added a total of (1082 pounds – 300 pounds = 782 pounds) or 355 KG to my 4 main lifts:

Again, here are my starting strength numbers (February 2010):

Bench press 75 pounds (34 KG) for 1 rep.
Press 33 pounds (15 KG) for 1 rep.
Squat 75 pounds (34 KG) for 1 rep.
Deadlift 117 pounds (53 KG) for 1 rep.

And here are my ending lifts on the programs:

Bench press 220 pounds (100 KG) for 1 rep.
Press 154 pounds (70 KG) for 1 rep.
Squat 308 pounds (140 KG) for 1 rep.
Deadlift 400 pounds (180 KG) for 1 rep.

(I made all of this progress in my first year of training with the exception of the overhead press which was an extreme weak point for me. I worked on the overhead press exclusively in my 2nd, 3rd and 4th year of training.)"




Yeah..that's terrible progress...

[FDRD1]

"With my low starting strength numbers and slow progression I knew that I was in the bottom 1% in terms of genetics for lifting.

But that didn’t stop me for lifting heavy.

After continuously pushing myself, I added a total of (1082 pounds – 300 pounds = 782 pounds) or 355 KG to my 4 main lifts:

Again, here are my starting strength numbers (February 2010):

Bench press 75 pounds (34 KG) for 1 rep.
Press 33 pounds (15 KG) for 1 rep.
Squat 75 pounds (34 KG) for 1 rep.
Deadlift 117 pounds (53 KG) for 1 rep.

And here are my ending lifts on the programs:

Bench press 220 pounds (100 KG) for 1 rep.
Press 154 pounds (70 KG) for 1 rep.
Squat 308 pounds (140 KG) for 1 rep.
Deadlift 400 pounds (180 KG) for 1 rep.

(I made all of this progress in my first year of training with the exception of the overhead press which was an extreme weak point for me. I worked on the overhead press exclusively in my 2nd, 3rd and 4th year of training.)"




that's terrible progress

I agree. Basically sounds like me, infact.

My point was more geared towards his physique. If he's that weak, how can he achieve that?

[Farley1324]

I agree. Basically sounds like me, infact.

My point was more geared towards his physique. If he's that weak, how can he achieve that?

Who is how weak?

[FDRD1]

Who is how weak?

On the link you quoted. You can see how weak he is but you can also see his physique is a world of difference?

[Farley1324]

On the link you quoted. You can see how weak he is but you can also see his physique is a world of difference?

I didn't catch that, but I didn't read every word.

How weak (squat, bench, dead, press?) was he for what physique at what bodyweight, that you are asking about?

[FDRD1]

I didn't catch that, but I didn't read every word.

How weak (squat, bench, dead, press?) was he for what physique at what bodyweight, that you are asking about?

I'm quite tired so I may be typing like a sausage.

Basically the link you skimmed through, you highlighted his progress was "terrible". As you can see on the photos, he remained fat but stronger. Then he said he stopped training on SL/SS etc and focused on a hypertrophy routine, specifically stating he's ditched the linear progression programs recommended to him. You can then see his attached photos of his body after doing so and he looks awesome? Just wondering what you though of it?

skinnyfattransformation . com/why-you-shouldnt-do-starting-strength-as-a-beginner/

[Farley1324]

I'm quite tired so I may be typing like a sausage.

Basically the link you skimmed through, you highlighted his progress was "terrible". As you can see on the photos, he remained fat but stronger. Then he said he stopped training on SL/SS etc and focused on a hypertrophy routine, specifically stating he's ditched the linear progression programs recommended to him. You can then see his attached photos of his body after doing so and he looks awesome? Just wondering what you though of it?

skinnyfattransformation . com/why-you-shouldnt-do-starting-strength-as-a-beginner/

He bulked up and added a huge amount of strength doing linear progression on the compounds, then he cut down and looked good. Sound familiar?

[FDRD1]

He bulked up and added a huge amount of strength doing linear progression on the compounds, then he cut down and looked good. Sound familiar?

Nope. His lifts in terms of progression were pretty bad over the year, you said yourself it was terrible progress. His before and after photo shows he looks the same. He ditches the program, does hypertrophy routine, looks swole?

[Farley1324]

Nope. His lifts in terms of progression were pretty bad over the year, you said yourself it was terrible progress. His before and after photo shows he looks the same. He ditches the program, does hypertrophy routine, looks swole?

That was clearly sarcasm. He added 782 lbs to his big 4 lifts in less than a year.

He added

145 lbs to bench
121 lbs to press
233 lbs to squat
283 lbs to deadlift


In under a year.

Who could ever...ever...not be thrilled with that?

[FDRD1]

That was clearly sarcasm. He added 782 lbs to his big 4 lifts in less than a year.

He added

145 lbs to bench
121 lbs to press
233 lbs to squat
283 lbs to deadlift


In under a year.

Who could ever...ever...not be thrilled with that?

Okay, regardless. Theres no way he was that size underneath that fat, surely?

[Farley1324]

Okay, regardless. Theres no way he was that size underneath that fat, surely?

What size? How many years after he moved on from novice LP, how many years of training under his belt, is whatever photo you are talking about?

[dski79]

Okay, regardless. Theres no way he was that size underneath that fat, surely?

you are really reaching man!! do you even know who that kid is? cuz a kid that did the same thing on here 11 years ago and some of the posters might remember him, started out with Starting Strength, got HUGE numbers, and after he was done progressing, went on to TM, made even bigger gains in his numbers previously , and was an up and coming Star on as far as powerlifting etc etc!! THEN he decided to "cut" so he can be a bodybuilder, and signed up for a sponsorship for bodybuilding, under the terms that he would not tell how he came about that way but had to tout the particular supplement that was sponsering him! his name was baby something i cant remember! but he was a HUGE advocate on SS or any of the novice programs, got strong as FFFF!! looked great, and as soon as someone threw him money, he started bashing novice programs!