Rep ranges

[reignman76]

I’m currently using the bare bones Viking program. Let’s take the bench press: he prescribes using 4 sets to accomplish 32 reps.

Let’s say workout progresses as follows:
Set 1: 12 reps
Set 2: 9 reps
Set 3: 7 reps
Set 4: 4 reps

Would I get the strength benefit from that 4th set because it was only 4 reps in the same way I would with a higher weight lower rep range?
Essentially I’m asking if fatigue limiting reps gives the same strength benefit than high weight load limiting reps.

[socksndtubes]

Makes sense if you ask me, as long as the weight is heavy enough for you.

[FaIIen]

In short, no.

If you're doing 4 rep sets on a weight that you could rep for 12, you're not resting enough.

[maddog352002]

I’m currently using the bare bones Viking program. Let’s take the bench press: he prescribes using 4 sets to accomplish 32 reps.

Let’s say workout progresses as follows:
Set 1: 12 reps
Set 2: 9 reps
Set 3: 7 reps
Set 4: 4 reps

Would I get the strength benefit from that 4th set because it was only 4 reps in the same way I would with a higher weight lower rep range?
Essentially I’m asking if fatigue limiting reps gives the same strength benefit than high weight load limiting reps.

Strength training utilizes long rest periods. Given that example you could 4 sets of 10 with that weight easily. Not sure what you thought behind burning out on the first set is.

[DCSpartan]

That scheme is close to what I am using, It works. The key is sets 1 and 2 are all out, 1 less shy of failure. You are lifting agin in about 3 minutes, not taking 6-8 minutes between sets.

[reignman76]

@maddog.

It’s not that I’m burning out on the first set It’s that I’m taking 2 minute breaks between sets and that’s my natural fatigue trajectory.
If you look at Viking bare bones, a sticky on this site the protocol isn’t to do straight sets but to get 32 reps in any combination using 4 sets.

[reignman76]

@OCsparton. That’s exactly what I’m doing. Sets one and two are tough but I have an extra rep in the tank. Right now I’m taking 2 minute breaks but maybe i should do 3....

[DCSpartan]

I think 3 minutes is reasonable.

[maddog352002]

@maddog.

It’s not that I’m burning out on the first set It’s that I’m taking 2 minute breaks between sets and that’s my natural fatigue trajectory.
If you look at Viking bare bones, a sticky on this site the protocol isn’t to do straight sets but to get 32 reps in any combination using 4 sets.

Completely understand, I was more pointing to the fact that you could do more total reps by going rpe 7-8 on the first set. But if you rest that extra minute should get the same result.

[FaIIen]

@OCsparton. That’s exactly what I’m doing. Sets one and two are tough but I have an extra rep in the tank. Right now I’m taking 2 minute breaks but maybe i should do 3....

Sure, but if you're trying to get stronger at a movement, you shouldn't be using weights that you can rep for 12 to begin with.

[reignman76]

@fallen
Should you be lifting a weight 8 times on the first rep that you can also lift 8 times on the 4th set? Seems like you’re holding a lot back on that first rep just to say you did 8 straight across...

[FaIIen]

@fallen
Should you be lifting a weight 8 times on the first rep that you can also lift 8 times on the 4th set?

Well that would depend on the progression protocol you've chosen. With Vikings program, probably not. Not to say you couldn't.

Seems like you’re holding a lot back on that first rep just to say you did 8 straight across...

No, you would be holding back to get in more volume. Doing a set to RPE 9-10 is way more fatiguing than doing one to RPE 7-8.

In your your example that you used in the first post, you did 4 sets as follows:
Set 1: 12 reps
Set 2: 9 reps
Set 3: 7 reps
Set 4: 4 reps

You say you're not burning out on the first set, but I have a hard time believing it's sub RPE 9 if your performance drops that much. Maybe it is, I can't know.

If you had done 10 reps on the first set, you probably would've been able to do 4x10. Like it or not, that's more volume than 12+9+7+4.



Back to the actual point I was trying to make regarding your original question: there's no way you're using more than 70 % if you're getting 12 reps on your first set. Even if you're so fatigued on the 4th set that you can't eek out more than 4 reps - it's still only 70 %. No additional strength benefits due to being fatigued.

[reignman76]

I think if you look on most 1rm max calculators 12 reps is about 70%. Also, if you’re RPE is so low on the first set, I doubt you’re using 70% either.

Of course everything is relative. If you’re 6’3” 246 lbs and as cut as your photo shows. You might be getting the assistance you need to recover between sets

[maddog352002]

I think if you look on most 1rm max calculators 12 reps is about 70%. Also, if you’re RPE is so low on the first set, I doubt you’re using 70% either.

Of course everything is relative. If you’re 6’3” 246 lbs and as cut as your photo shows. You might be getting the assistance you need to recover between sets

I think you missed his point. If you're going for strength then you're doing it wrong. If your going for hypertrophy then what you're doing is fine. But you could look at doing it a different way to try to get more total volume.

[LactoseTolerant]

I think if you look on most 1rm max calculators 12 reps is about 70%. Also, if you’re RPE is so low on the first set, I doubt you’re using 70% either.

70% of 1rm by itself tells you nothing about the RPE of your sets. That's another point you're missing.

[reignman76]

Well. I never really said what I was going for. My original question was simply by fatiguing myself to the point of 4 reps on the 4th set. Does that last set build strength/tax the cns as if I had done less reps because or a higher load/weight.

I’m just banging out 32 reps over 4 sets. I assume 32 reps is more hyperteophy. If I wanted strength only I’d be looking at 15 reps more like a 3x5.

[maddog352002]

Well. I never really said what I was going for. My original question was simply by fatiguing myself to the point of 4 reps on the 4th set. Does that last set build strength/tax the cns as if I had done less reps because or a higher load/weight.

I’m just banging out 32 reps over 4 sets. I assume 32 reps is more hyperteophy. If I wanted strength only I’d be looking at 15 reps more like a 3x5.

Hypertrophy comes down to total volume. So leaving reps in the tank and doing more sets will build more mass.

[reignman76]

Leaving more reps in the tank so I can bench press more than 4 sets and 32 reps? Should I be benching 5 and 45? 6 and 52?

I don’t understand where you’re going with this? So you’re saying 4 sets and/or 32 reps isn’t sufficient?

[LactoseTolerant]

Leaving more reps in the tank so I can bench press more than 4 sets and 32 reps? Should I be benching 5 and 45? 6 and 52?

I don’t understand where you’re going with this? So you’re saying 4 sets and/or 32 reps isn’t sufficient?

Just stick with the program. You may or may not figure out one day that skipping that 12th rep grinder on the first set can mean the difference between making the 32 rep goal and advancing or missing the target.

[FaIIen]

I think if you look on most 1rm max calculators 12 reps is about 70%. Also, if you’re RPE is so low on the first set, I doubt you’re using 70% either.

Of course everything is relative. If you’re 6’3” 246 lbs and as cut as your photo shows. You might be getting the assistance you need to recover between sets

Flattering, but I'd say I definitely lean more towards fluffy than cut, lighting does wonders lol.

Leaving more reps in the tank so I can bench press more than 4 sets and 32 reps? Should I be benching 5 and 45? 6 and 52?

I don’t understand where you’re going with this? So you’re saying 4 sets and/or 32 reps isn’t sufficient?

We're trying to explain what you could be doing if you wanted to focus on strength.
You would have to increase your weights, which forces you to do less reps per set. But since you're trying to grow - you wouldn't want to let your total volume dip too low either. To combat this, you would increase the number of sets. It isn't unheard of to do something like 8x3.

[reignman76]

Who said I was grinding? I think I’ve stated a few times in this post I’ve held at least one rep in the tank.

I feel like people on this forum love to play devils advocate and make issues out of thin air.

Somehow every post deviates from someone’s question being answered to going down some rabbit hole about a made up issue people find. It’s sad that this site is less about people helping each other and more about people trolling each other.

Final though on this post:

Either people are

A.) Trolls just our to try to do what trolls do...
B.) on some kind of gear and don’t know how to relate and therefore answer questions of people who are naturals.

[reignman76]

Oh man...8x3. Yes the best of both worlds. Low rep range for strength and decent total reps for hypertrophy. Unfortunately I’m not in my early mid 20s with all the time in the world. I’m in my 40s with a family.

Just to get through one exercise on a 8x3 would take take half an hour. Yikes.

[OldFartTom]

... ...Essentially I’m asking if fatigue limiting reps gives the same strength benefit than high weight load limiting reps.

Not sure to be honest, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henn...size_principle is not completely undisputed but there is convincing evidence so I'm going with it. The idea is that as you get fatigued it is sort of similar to being heavier. In theory that last set of 4 at a high rpe is similar to a set of 4 at a higher weight same rpe when not fatigued.

This is all very speculative so I'll say it's a definite maybe but personal opinion is going to get involved -- try it and see

What I would say is if strength is your top priority, is Vikings (as very good a program as it is) the right one for you, or would a more powerlifting style one be better?

[reignman76]

Thanks Tom. Finally someone who thought about the question.

Nah, I’m not really focused on strength. Just figured if I’m hitting about 5 reps on my last set was it building strength. More of a curiousity thing...

I was doing the starting strength thing for most of this year until recently. I found it out too much wear and tear on my body. I kind of enjoy doing the bling routine which keeps the reps high instead of 13-15 total reps per exercise.

[SuffolkPunch]

No, low reps only have a particular skew towards strength training if you are using a weight that is a high percentage of your 1RM weight. In other words, it only counts if the low reps are because the weight is heavy, not because you are fatigued from previous sets.

[reignman76]

Hmmm. Good info punch.

On my bench press In particular I’m seeing a drop off from set to set. I’m taking a 2 minute break (figuring 3 or more is more for low rep schemes).

Is it pretty natural to see a drop off such as

Set 1 - 12 reps
2- 9
3 - 7
4 - 5

I don’t see the huge deal myself as long as I get the 32 reps like the Viking program wants. Plus each set seems to be a working set since I’m only holding back 1 rep, maybe 2 (I’m not grinding the last rep).

I always felt like with sets that have fixed reps
4x8
3x10
Ect

That you held SO much back on the first set to ensure you can lift the same on the subsequent 3 that It felt more like a warm up set than a working set.

[SuffolkPunch]

A rep count is not a perfect way of programming although it is a reasonable heuristic approach for most people.

If your rep count is dropping that much, I intuitively think you don't actually need 4 sets. I would do less sets but maybe up the frequency that you do the exercise per week.

Once you start getting 12, 10, 9 (say) then maybe another set is required or maybe going up a weight.

[reignman76]

I just completed my 2nd week of the Viking program. So still exploring where my weights are are on a given exercise. Hopefully by the end of next week I will be at appropriate weights.

I seem to remember you coming up with a program that allowed for self regulation...

[SuffolkPunch]

I seem to remember you coming up with a program that allowed for self regulation...

Yes, it's very hard to make it all happen mechanistically though. No system is foolproof. Rather than trying to do that, I just have my own mental model of how it all works. This includes basing how much volume you need to do based on how your body reacts set-by-set.

set 1: RPE 8
set 2: RPE 9
remaining sets: RPE 9-10 (depending on safety of training to failure)
- stop when a certain fatigue level is reached (i.e. reps have dropped by around 1/3 or so).

[FaIIen]

B.) on some kind of gear and don’t know how to relate and therefore answer questions of people who are naturals.

Lol'd.


And I did answer the original question you had - twice. You just chose to ignore it.