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  1. #1
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    In the absence of religion, there are no morals.

    Without God, there are no moral features in this world, nothing is right or wrong. There are no objective values in regards to morality. Therefore no moral judgements are true. Prove me wrong
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    More majorum nickboy333's Avatar
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    It's not religion that provides morals. It's the lifestyle.
    Germanic tribes of old, before Christianity, lived a highly formal agrarian lifestyle. This is attested in Tacitus' Germania.
    The worst for morale and morals, is a decadent lifestyle free of manual labor and harshness.
    A harsh difficult lifestyle makes men out of decadent fools. Wealth, sedentarism, creates evil.

    Its because young men spend their entire days in front of computers full of all kinds of evil content that hearts turn to evil.
    Its modernity that is to blame.

    Even if you have religion today, it is ersatz bull**** that is hypocritical and hollow. Plenty of so called Christians including in America, go to Church on Sunday, pray hard, and then watch porn or cheat on their wives. Religion is dead and helps nothing when the entire system is perverse. This is the paradox especially in America. They say their system is ruled by God but their system is based on the ultimate evil written in the bible: Love of money and monetary gain.

    How can you be a true Christian living in a land ruled by the Jewish God Mammon?
    You can pray all you want, but in the end you are living in evil.
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    Registered User Metz00's Avatar
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    Religion always intertwines with social values and behaviors carry down generations through nurture both at home and at school. People can slowly become areligious and still retain values that were once promoted by religion.

    The issue could be that religion tends to be steady in its beliefs for the most part and a society that pushes religion aside can slowly redefine morals without the "traditional constraints", as in whats now acceptable and what isn't (ex: children out of wedlock, homosexuality, etc.).
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    Originally Posted by nickboy333 View Post
    It's not religion that provides morals. It's the lifestyle.
    Germanic tribes of old, before Christianity, lived a highly formal agrarian lifestyle. This is attested in Tacitus' Germania.
    How is that evidence of morality?

    You are just saying that they lived in a agrarian life... Like a number of peoples were at the time.
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    More majorum nickboy333's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BetaAsPhuck View Post
    How is that evidence of morality?
    You are just saying that they lived in a agrarian life... Like a number of peoples were at the time.
    Not just that. Read Tacitus' Germania.
    They lived monogamous lifestyles. Sin was punished harshly, adultery was punished by death, etc.

    Some quotes:

    Their marriage code, however, is strict, and no feature of their morality deserves higher praise. They are almost unique among barbarians in being content with one wife apiece - all of them, that is, except a very few who take more than one wife not to satisfy their desires but because their exalted rank brings them many pressing offers of matrimonial alliances. The woman must not think that she is excluded from aspirations to manly virtues or exempt from the hazards of warfare. That is why she is reminded, in the very ceremonies which bless her marriage at its outset, that she enters her husband's home to be the partner of his toils and perils, that both in peace and in war she is to share his sufferings and adventures.
    By such means is the virtue of their women protected, and they live uncorrupted by the temptations of public shows or the excitements of banquets. Clandestine loveletters are unknown to men and women alike. Adultery is extremely rare, considering the size of the population. A guilty wife is summarily punished by her husband. He cuts off her hair, strips her naked, and in the presence of kinsmen turns her out of his house and flogs her all through the village. They have in tact no mercy on a wife who prostitutes her chastity. Neither beauty, youth, nor wealth can find her another husband. No one in Germany finds vice amusing, or calls it 'up-to-date' to seduce and be seduced. Even better is the practice of those states in which only virgins may marry, so that a woman who has once been a bride has finished with all such hopes and aspirations. She takes one husband, just as she has one body and one life. Her thoughts must not stray beyond him or her desires survive him. And even that husband she must love not for himself, but as an embodiment of the married state. To restrict the number of children, or to kill any of those born after the heir, is considered wicked. Good morality is more effective in Germany than good laws are elsewhere.
    It stands on record that armies already wavering and on the point of collapse have been rallied by the women, pleading heroically with their men, thrusting forward their bared bosoms, and making them realize the imminent prospect of enslavement -- a fate which the Germans fear more desperately for their women than for themselves. Indeed, you can secure a surer hold on these nations if you compel them to include among a consignment of hostages some girls of noble family. More than this, they believe that there resides in women an element of holiness and a gift of prophecy; and so they do not scorn to ask their advice, or lightly disregard their replies.
    Ancient German family, engraving.
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    There's a word to describe exactly what you're talking about. It's called bullsh*t. There are plenty of non-religious people who have high morals just as there are plenty of church going people with no morals. In my experience everybody falls under the same bell curve, religious or not.
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    Registered User thorpowers's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 401Delta View Post
    There's a word to describe exactly what you're talking about. It's called bullsh*t. There are plenty of non-religious people who have high morals just as there are plenty of church going people with no morals.
    Don't think anyone ITT understands the premise of the argument. Am not saying that individual religious people have morals, or that atheists do not.

    I am saying that without using religion, morality is completely subjective. Morality is based on feelings and relationships with other people, the way we were raised, it's all relative. Someone with different feelings, and raised in a different way may find something to be morally good that someone raised in another way finds morally bad. If morals can be variable depending on circumstances, then they are completely subjective. Objective truths are not influenced by human opinions, emotions, or conditions.

    1+1=2 is an objective truth

    Murder is bad is not an objective truth, there is no way to logically prove it, and in the absence of religion becomes completely subjective based on one's own feelings.
    Last edited by thorpowers; 10-28-2018 at 04:43 AM.
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    Wage Cuckin' It BetaAsPhuck's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nickboy333 View Post
    Not just that. Read Tacitus' Germania.
    They lived monogamous lifestyles. Sin was punished harshly, adultery was punished by death, etc.
    OK, I would have to read the book to understand your argument.

    Based on your quotes though; you seem to hold up sexual chastity, and public abuse and humiliation of an adulterous women as examples of their high morality.

    It's a common theme I've witnessed in the more fundamentalist Christian and Muslims circles, that sexual ethics are practically views as the barometer for morality. Not benevolence, charity, being a nurturing and protective parent, etc... Just who you've had sex with, and how adultery is treated within a society.

    I don't buy that, because I've been around chaste Muslims and Christians, and I honestly have rated some of them as worse people than promiscuous people that I've met. (I've had to report a number of them to the authorities, for professing support for Terrorist organizations.)

    Something which I think that Christianity has over the Pre-Christian Germans is the belief in redemption. An adulterous woman is (based on your quotes) viewed as eternally bad and unworthy of love, whereas in Christianity redemption is possible, through repentence and personal reformation. IMO culture that doesn't allow for redemption, leads to purity spiralling and hypocrisy.
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    Originally Posted by thorpowers View Post
    Don't think anyone ITT understands the premise of the argument. Am not saying that individual religious people have morals, or that atheists do not.

    I am saying that without using religion, morality is completely subjective. Morality is based on feelings and relationships with other people, the way we were raised, it's all relative. Someone with different feelings, and raised in a different way may find something to be morally good that someone raised in another way finds morally bad. If morals can be variable depending on circumstances, then they are completely subjective. Objective truths are not influenced by human opinions, emotions, or conditions.

    1+1=2 is an objective truth

    Murder is bad is not an objective truth, there is no way to logically prove it, and in the absence of religion becomes completely subjective based on one's own feelings.
    So, which 'religion' are we supposed to follow in order to have objective morality? Is modern Islam, where offensive Jihad and killing the infidel are acceptable, a good one for everyone to follow in order to have objective morality?
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    Originally Posted by thorpowers View Post
    Don't think anyone ITT understands the premise of the argument.
    I understand. I think it's a bad argument personally (I'm a Christian theist).

    I would explain more... But I'm sitting here with popcorn.

    There are some atheists on here who I suspect will come in, and give us a good debate.
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    Actually morality has an evolutionary basis.
    Helping your fellow tribesmen turns out to increase lifespan and reproductive success versus going at it alone.
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    Originally Posted by ScottTil View Post
    Actually morality has an evolutionary basis.
    Helping your fellow tribesmen turns out to increase lifespan and reproductive success versus going at it alone.
    /thread
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    Originally Posted by ScottTil View Post
    Actually morality has an evolutionary basis.
    Helping your fellow tribesmen turns out to increase lifespan and reproductive success versus going at it alone.

    Wouldn’t killing people from other tribes and taking all their stuff for your tribe be beneficial as well?





    As far as the argument in the OP I’d say it’s half correct. Morals without religion are subjective, but morals with religion are subjective as well because it’s up to the people to interpret and prioritize the rules they live by.I do think morality based on a natural law passed down from religion/higher power is more effective than the type of morality we see start to bloom out of empires in which religiousity declines or where religion is banned. Men, when left to their own devices, can come up with all kinds of crazy sh!t that they pass off as morality.
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    Shhh, no tears TheJimmyRustler's Avatar
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    Yes, there is no cosmic neon-lightboard that flashes red if you do bad/green if you do good. Don't think any atheists would ever try to argue otherwise.
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    Originally Posted by jtaylor2010 View Post
    Men, when left to their own devices, can come up with all kinds of crazy sh!t that they pass off as morality.
    Yes, and they call it religion.
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    Originally Posted by ScottTil View Post
    Actually morality has an evolutionary basis.
    Helping your fellow tribesmen turns out to increase lifespan and reproductive success versus going at it alone.
    That may or may not be true. There is an argument to be made that being selfish eliminates competition and increases the chances your genetics get carried forth over someone more altruistic. For example in evolutionary biology a 'cuck' is a man that raises children that are not genetically his own. The cuck is helping his fellow tribesmen at the expense of passing on his own genetics.

    But whether an instinct/intuition has an evolutionary basis or not is irrelevant to the argument I've posed in the OP. Even if humans natural sense of morality was in part or completely influenced by natural selection, that would not make it objective. It is still rooted in human feelings.

    Let me be more clear in the argument. I'm not saying that if religion did not exist that humans would have no personal sense of morality derived from a combination of their genetics and environment. I am saying that if God is not real, then there is no objective morality. You can not say that something is good or bad and have it be universally true the way you can say 1+1=2.
    Last edited by thorpowers; 10-28-2018 at 05:48 AM.
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    Originally Posted by 401Delta View Post
    Yes, and they call it religion.
    As opposed to the morals of imperial Japan or Pol Pot’s Cambodia? Or even just compare the morals of America 60 years ago to the morals of today...or do the same with Canada and Europe then tell me which moral structure makes more sense.
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    Originally Posted by jtaylor2010 View Post
    As opposed to the morals of imperial Japan or Pol Pot’s Cambodia? Or even just compare the morals of America 60 years ago to the morals of today...or do the same with Canada and Europe then tell me which moral structure makes more sense.
    That's just it, though...it's subjective. The OP's argument is that without his God morality is subjective, but even with (a) god it is only objective to those that identify with that God as supreme...but since others still identify with other gods/doctrines/ideologies...it's still subjective.
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    Morality is based on naturalistic tribal behavior and the innate virtues of a tribe/people. Not an external religion.
    Tacitus' Germania had a twofold aim: to juxtapose the German tribal virtues but also for Tacitus to expose the now decadent Roman behaviors. By that time period, the rustical Romans had turned to behavior similar to modern USA or Europe. Overconsumption, promiscuity, consumerism, etc.

    Morals comes from discipline. Just like when a normal human undergoes military training and gets beaten into submission, coming out stronger in the process.
    Belief alone does nothing. Its actions that matter. A conditioned mind and body. In fact I'd invite anyone who has enough of decadence to undergo some sort of boot camp or rustical back to the land experience.
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    Originally Posted by thorpowers View Post
    Without God, there are no moral features in this world, nothing is right or wrong. There are no objective values in regards to morality. Therefore no moral judgements are true. Prove me wrong
    The burden of proof is on you and not me. Extremist religion leads to hate.
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    According to the religious right, religion and morality is based on screaming that people are going to hell and beating up and threating those that don’t agree with you on every political issue. The religious right elected a president who insults people over twtiiter hourly because members of the religious right do the same thing. The religious right is one huge hate group.
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    Originally Posted by thorpowers View Post
    Don't think anyone ITT understands the premise of the argument. Am not saying that individual religious people have morals, or that atheists do not.

    I am saying that without using religion, morality is completely subjective. Morality is based on feelings and relationships with other people, the way we were raised, it's all relative. Someone with different feelings, and raised in a different way may find something to be morally good that someone raised in another way finds morally bad. If morals can be variable depending on circumstances, then they are completely subjective. Objective truths are not influenced by human opinions, emotions, or conditions.

    1+1=2 is an objective truth

    Murder is bad is not an objective truth, there is no way to logically prove it, and in the absence of religion becomes completely subjective based on one's own feelings.
    Murder is bad as an axiomatic statement of morality holds objective truth because of it's utility, any offset subset of humanity that embraces the alternative to this sense of morality would self destruct. In this sense it is not subjective, because anyone who deviated from this sense of good in the past would weed themselves out of the gene pool with relative expedience. This is why cooperation is so ingrained in us, those who experienced empathy and choose to not arbitrarily murder people for no reason were able to more successfully breed as a result, making this behavior more prevalent in the gene pool. People who are the antithesis of this sense of morality, can expect to be ostracized and exiled, if not outright killed. This has been the norm for so long that a normal healthy person has a built in reflexive fear of rejection and sensitivities to being judged negatively by his/her peers. People also have a subconscious awareness of their status relative to others that can be tracked by how much serotonin they produce on a regular basis, as self esteem goes up, so does serotonin production.
    my keto log:
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    Originally Posted by YesiEvenLiftBro View Post
    Murder is bad as an axiomatic statement of morality holds objective truth because of it's utility, any offset subset of humanity that embraces the alternative to this sense of morality would self destruct. In this sense it is not subjective, because anyone who deviated from this sense of good in the past would weed themselves out of the gene pool with relative expedience. This is why cooperation is so ingrained in us, those who experienced empathy and choose to not arbitrarily murder people for no reason were able to more successfully breed as a result, making this behavior more prevalent in the gene pool. People who are the antithesis of this sense of morality, can expect to be ostracized and exiled, if not outright killed. This has been the norm for so long that a normal healthy person has a built in reflexive fear of rejection and sensitivities to being judged negatively by his/her peers. People also have a subconscious awareness of their status relative to others that can be tracked by how much serotonin they produce on a regular basis, as self esteem goes up, so does serotonin production.
    You've already contradicted yourself. You state that murder is objectively bad, and then give an example of a circumstance in which murder is justified according to you. To another person, murder may never be justified, under any circumstances. You see where I'm going with this? Morality is subjective, what can be morally justified to one person may not be to another. You can not prove any moral truths using a logical argument.
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    Originally Posted by 401Delta View Post
    That's just it, though...it's subjective. The OP's argument is that without his God morality is subjective, but even with (a) god it is only objective to those that identify with that God as supreme...but since others still identify with other gods/doctrines/ideologies...it's still subjective.
    morality is objective regardless of what god or ideology you believe or don't believe in, b/c our actions are bound by cause and effect.
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    Originally Posted by cman1787 View Post
    morality is objective regardless of what god or ideology you believe or don't believe in, b/c our actions are bound by cause and effect.
    Your argument is human actions are bound by the axiom of causality therefore morality is objective?

    Don't follow...
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    There is no evidence for God's existence.
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    What the phuck is this silly kunt talking about?


    It treat others how you would like to be treated. If you own a car and it costs you money to get it sprayed when someone keys it you know its wrong to go around keying peoples cars.

    Its not that hard to know right from wrong.
    Brah
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    God is not real.
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    Originally Posted by TheFuarkingBoss View Post
    What the phuck is this silly kunt talking about?


    It treat others how you would like to be treated. If you own a car and it costs you money to get it sprayed when someone keys it you know its wrong to go around keying peoples cars.

    Its not that hard to know right from wrong.
    Maybe 'it' is a mascho****s and likes to be treated like sh*t. How one person likes to be treated, another may not like to be treated.
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