I guess abortion is murder after all?

[Cleveland33]

I treat patients every day IRL and this is literally not how anything works in the medical field. Provided they have mental capacity, if they want to get up and leave halfway through a procedure, then the most I can do is try and convince them why that would be harmful and not in their best interests. If they still choose to leave that's their decision and they are responsible for any consequences. I can't get security to hold them down while I finish the procedure, and it shouldn't take someone in the profession to have to tell you that either.

Besides, you're now arguing something completely different. You're talking about the potential harm to the donor if they stop the procedure, when you first were telling us about a foricible obligation to the recipient (which no matter how much you REEEE, does not exist). Can you even keep track of the garbage arguments you're throwing out here?

We're not talking elective procedures, we're talking about a life saving procedure for one person.

No I am speaking of harm to both patients in that example.

It's not a perfect example but there is no actual real life example that is remotely close to this debate.

You really shouldn't be throwing around accusations of garbage arguments because the only thing you have is body autonomy and that has been addressed by several posters here several times.

[BrocepCurls]

We're not talking elective procedures, we're talking about a life saving procedure for one person.

No I am speaking of harm to both patients in that example.

It's not a perfect example but there is no actual real life example that is remotely close to this debate.

You really shouldn't be throwing around accusations of garbage arguments because the only thing you have is body autonomy and that has been addressed by several posters here several times.

Yes and there is still no medical precedent that would force someone to give up part of their body to save someone else under any circumstances, even if they already had the tube in their arm. If the doctor decided to forcibly take it against a mentally capable patient's will, it'd probably be that docs last day on the job.

Not one poster (certainly not you) has managed to explain why bodily autonomy is somehow relinquished just because you say so. In fact no one has done anything but revert to emotional outbursts about murder, because that's literally the only thing the pro life camp has. There are other arguments for why abortion should be legal as well, FYI, it's just that the concept of bodily autonomy is the only one needed to successfully make the case.

[LeJR]

a thought it was just a clump of cells doe

[JoshSP1985]

Yes and there is still no medical precedent that would force someone to give up part of their body to save someone else under any circumstances, even if they already had the tube in their arm. If the doctor decided to forcibly take it against a mentally capable patient's will, it'd probably be that docs last day on the job.

Not one poster (certainly not you) has managed to explain why bodily autonomy is somehow relinquished just because you say so. In fact no one has done anything but revert to emotional outbursts about murder, because that's literally the only thing the pro life camp has. There are other arguments for why abortion should be legal as well, FYI, it's just that the concept of bodily autonomy is the only one needed to successfully make the case.

What about the autonomy of the unborn child? Sure it's getting nutrition but it pumps it's own blood has it's own brain. Babies have a beating heart around week 6.

[Cleveland33]

Yes and there is still no medical precedent that would force someone to give up part of their body to save someone else under any circumstances, even if they already had the tube in their arm. If the doctor decided to forcibly take it against a mentally capable patient's will, it'd probably be that docs last day on the job.

Not one poster (certainly not you) has managed to explain why bodily autonomy is somehow relinquished just because you say so. In fact no one has done anything but revert to emotional outbursts about murder, because that's literally the only thing the pro life camp has. There are other arguments for why abortion should be legal as well, FYI, it's just that the concept of bodily autonomy is the only one needed to successfully make the case.

That probably explains why so few appropriate doctors perform abortions. But I guarantee that if you and I were hooked up together and a tube was feeding you something from my body and it kept you alive and severing that tube will result in your death within minutes - most doctors will not sever that tube no matter how much I protest as long as the tube is not negatively impacting my well being.

Body autonomy is relinquished when the mother takes the choice to have sexual intercourse that may result in pregnancy.

Actions have consequences, one of those consequences is the

[BrocepCurls]

Body autonomy is relinquished when the mother takes the choice to have sexual intercourse that may result in pregnancy.

[BrocepCurls]

What about the autonomy of the unborn child? Sure it's getting nutrition but it pumps it's own blood has it's own brain. Babies have a beating heart around week 6.

And? What does this have to do with autonomy?

[acrawlingchaos]

ending a life of a innocent child and you being okay with it will result in insults coming from me. get used to it chump

I'm accustomed to the evangelical right voicing their opinion with emotion rather than reason. You're no different than a pink haired lesbian screaming about the patriarch who formulates arguments with insults. :yawn:

a thought it was just a clump of cells doe

Maybe it was a conservative judge? There are quite a few of them.

That probably explains why so few appropriate doctors perform abortions. But I guarantee that if you and I were hooked up together and a tube was feeding you something from my body and it kept you alive and severing that tube will result in your death within minutes - most doctors will not sever that tube no matter how much I protest as long as the tube is not negatively impacting my well being.

LOL at this example. Come on, you can do better.

Body autonomy is relinquished when the mother takes the choice to have sexual intercourse that may result in pregnancy.

Not last time I looked at the law.

[MoeBettuh]

And? What does this have to do with autonomy?

Not sheriff

[acrawlingchaos]

Not sheriff

The fetus is physically incapable of autonomy, a pregnant woman is.

[PlanoLifter]

Body autonomy is relinquished when the mother takes the choice to have sexual intercourse that may result in pregnancy.

This seems to be a view commonly held by those against abortion but it’s simply not the case. It’s yet another baseless argument against abortion.

Should I be wrong I’m sure you can point to something backing up your assertion.

[Cleveland33]

This seems to be a view commonly held by those against abortion but it’s simply not the case. It’s yet another baseless argument against abortion.

Should I be wrong I’m sure you can point to something backing up your assertion.

You can't tell someone their morality is wrong, it's subjective. The difference is where as a line, can we agree as a society.

Otherwise I'm sure you can prove your assertion.

[sandaltan]

i dont really get how this even vaguely supports the conclusion that abortion is murder.

[PlanoLifter]

i dont really get how this even vaguely supports the conclusion that abortion is murder.

Given that abortion is not murder there can be nothing supporting a conclusion that it is, other than emotion.

[PlanoLifter]

You can't tell someone their morality is wrong, it's subjective. The difference is where as a line, can we agree as a society.

Otherwise I'm sure you can prove your assertion.

I make no assertion that your morality is wrong. You are entitled to feel however you want. I’m claiming that your opinion on this has no basis in current law that governs abortion. Sorry if I wasn’t clear on that.

[Cleveland33]

I make no assertion that your morality is wrong. You are entitled to feel however you want. I’m claiming that your opinion on this has no basis in current law that governs abortion. Sorry if I wasn’t clear on that.

Well obviously it's not or people wouldn't be attempting to get those laws changed.

[sandaltan]

Well obviously it's not or people wouldn't be attempting to get those laws changed.

he clearly said CURRENT laws.

people are always trying to get laws changed

[Cleveland33]

he clearly said CURRENT laws.

people are always trying to get laws changed

Well then why make his comment at all.

If he was referring to laws and not morality there was no point in saying it.

[sandaltan]

Well then why make his comment at all.

If he was referring to laws and not morality there was no point in saying it.

i am teh confused

abortion is legal

morality is subjective and relative, although i think there's an argument that some things are objectively and universally immoral

[PlanoLifter]

Well then why make his comment at all.

If he was referring to laws and not morality there was no point in saying it.

In my Defense it really seemed like you were stating it as fact rather than as opinion. At least one other poster clearly thought that too.

[Cleveland33]

In my Defense it really seemed like you were stating it as fact rather than as opinion. At least one other poster clearly thought that too.

You can't state moral issues as fact, that's been Brocep's problem with his ideas here and about being vegan.

The noob that's sucking up to leftists's opinion doesn't count yet.

[PlanoLifter]

You can't state moral issues as fact, that's been Brocep's problem with his ideas here and about being vegan.

The noob that's sucking up to leftists's opinion doesn't count yet.

I agree you can’t, but it certainly appeared you were. Hence my initial response. I now know that you weren’t, however.

So let’s move on ... you think abortion is immoral and should be banned. I think it’s abhorrent and should be minimized and yet has societal benefits that outweigh its banning. We have different outlooks on the issue.

[Cleveland33]

I never said it should be banned

[PlanoLifter]

I never said it should be banned

My mistake, then.

[MoeBettuh]

The fetus is physically incapable of autonomy, a pregnant woman is.

Physically incapable? Please expound.

[acrawlingchaos]

Physically incapable? Please expound.

A fetus does not develop the faculties capable of autonomous thought until a min of 22 weeks, biologically speaking.

[rdwire88]

I'm accustomed to the evangelical right voicing their opinion with emotion rather than reason. You're no different than a pink haired lesbian screaming about the patriarch who formulates arguments with insults. :yawn:

Maybe it was a conservative judge? There are quite a few of them.

LOL at this example. Come on, you can do better.

Not last time I looked at the law.

Pink haired lesbian? LOL

The pink haired lesbians are the ones who are screaming my body my choice...

you goof