The Trinity

[thunderykoala]

I was told to make a new thread about a discussion involving the Trinity. So in case anyone has ever had any curiosity about what the Trinity is in Christianity, I'll try to explain it here. The Trinity is a Christian concept of God containing the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Basically three distinct aspects of God as three distinct persons of God, but all three as the one God, if that makes sense. That's where the sign of the cross and the baptismal phrase comes from as well. "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." The three aspects and persons of God being invoked through that gesture and ritual.

The Father is the traditional concept of God that people might think of when they hear of God. He was prevalent in the Old Testament. The Son is Jesus, who is the Word of God that was incarnated in human form. And the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and the breath of God.

[TranceNRG]

In before BrosefMengele!

[thunderykoala]

In before BrosefMengele!

I'm sure he'll have some choice words and scripture passages to throw out.

[BrosefMengele]

There are not "three aspects" of God, as per the trinity doctrine, God who you correctly call the Father is ONE. There is NO trinity. That is a false picture of the true God.

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” Ephesians 4:4-6

“And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3

1 Corinthians 8:6 “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;

John 20:17 17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 1:17 ...'That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him.'

“truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.” "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 John 1:3, 1 Timothy 2:5

The church fathers WERE NOT TRINITARIANS.
Apostles:
Ephesians 1:3 ...'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.'
Ephesians 6:23 ...'Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.'
James 1:1 ...'James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.'
2 Peter 1:2 ...'Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.'
2 John 1:3 ...'Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.'

Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.

The Word of God is the Son of God, who was made flesh. He's the Messiah of the Jews. Not "God in the flesh", "God the Son of the trinity".

John 4
21Jesus replied, “Believe me, dear woman, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans know very little about the one you worship, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes through the Jews. 23But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. 24For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”

25The woman said, “I know the Messiah is coming—the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26Then Jesus told her, “I AM the Messiah!”

When you try to argue that Jesus is not in fact the literal begotten Son of God, or the Messiah/ "Christ" you are calling God a liar, because that's exactly what God said from heaven on multiple occasions, and is what the Messiah and his apostles, who were Yahoweh worshipping Jews, taught. It is also literally of the spirit of Antichrist and error to deny that Jesus is the SON of God/the Messiah.

Jesus quoted Deut 6:4 which names Yahoweh (the Father) as the only true God. He NEVER taught the trinity doctrine. The Jews NEVER knew it. The apostolic church NEVER believed it.

John 17:7-8 ...'Now they have known that all things whatsoever you have given me are of you. For I have given unto them the words which you gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from you, and they have believed that you did send me.'

Romans 8:3 ...'God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.'

1 John 4:9-10
9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 5:10
If we have faith in God's Son, we have believed what God has said. But if we don't believe what God has said about his Son, it is the same as calling God a liar.

1 John 4:15
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and he in God.

1 John 2:23
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

1 John 3:23
And this is His commandment: that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another just as He commanded us.

1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves the one born of Him.

1 John 5:5
Who then overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

John 6:28
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 3:17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.

"You ALONE, Yahweh, are God." Isaiah 37:20
"Before Me there was NO GOD FORMED, And there will be NONE AFTER ME." Isaiah 43:10
"'I am the FIRST AND I am the LAST, And there IS NO GOD BESIDES ME." Isaiah 44:6
"Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of NONE." Isaiah 44:8
"I am Yahweh, and there IS NO OTHER; BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD." Isaiah 45:5
"Surely, God is with you, and there is NONE ELSE, NO OTHER GOD." Isaiah 45:14
"I am Yahweh, and THERE IS NONE ELSE." Isaiah 45:18
"Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME, A righteous God and a Savior; THERE IS NONE EXCEPT ME." Isaiah 45:21
"I am God, and THERE IS NO OTHER; I am God, and there is NO ONE like Me" Isaiah 46:9

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
John 8:34-47

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, [Armageddon] ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Exodus 23:20-21
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. 22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. 23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

John 12:49-50
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 17:26
And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Acts 7:37-38
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38He was in the assembly in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. And he received living words to pass on to us.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.

Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matt 10:33
Whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has everlasting life, but whoever refuses to believe in the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Psalms 111:10 The fear of Yehowah is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do : his praise endureth for ever.
Psalms 135:13 Thy name, O Yehowah, for ever; thy memorial, O Yehowah, throughout all generations.
Psalms 148:5 Let them praise the name of Yehowah: for he commanded, and they were created.
Isaiah 12:4 And in that day shall ye say, Praise Yehowah, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.

Trinitarians deny all these verses:

... The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.(John 13:16)

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away , and come again unto you. If ye loved me , ye would rejoice , because I said , I go unto the Father: for my FATHER IS GREATER than I.(John 14:28)

And lo a voice from heaven, saying , This is my BELOVED SON, in whom I am well pleased (Matthew 3:17)

While he yet spake , behold , a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said , This is my BELOVED SON, in whom I am well pleased ; HEAR ye him.(Matthew 17:5)

And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my BELOVED SON, in whom I am well pleased (Mark 1:11)

And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying , This is my BELOVED SON: HEAR him (Mark 9:7)

...and a voice came from heaven, which said , Thou art my BELOVED SON; in thee I am well pleased (Luke 3:22)

And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying , This is my BELOVED SON: HEAR him. (Luke 9:35)

For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my BELOVED SON, in whom I am well pleased .(2 Peter 1:17)

[BrosefMengele]

“Wherefore (God) also hath highly exalted Him and given Him a Name which is above every name. That at the Name of (the Messiah) every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that The Messiah is Master, to the glory of the Father.” Philippians 2:9-11.

No one has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father. I tell you the truth he who believes has everlasting life.” (John) 6:48

1 Timothy 6:16
16 who only has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor is able to see; to whom [be] honour and eternal might. Amen.

Isaiah 57:15
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

“Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘YHVH God of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations’” Exodus 3:15.

'Hear O Israel, Yahowah is our God and Yahowah is the only one God'. Deuteronomy 6:4

The secret things belong unto Yehoweh our God; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deuteronomy 29:29

And because you are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of His Son to enter your hearts and cry "Abba! our Father!"
Galatians 4:6

Revelation 6:10-11
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev 22:4
And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

The trinity is a picture, the name itself is blasphemy.

Numbers 33:52
Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

Revelation 13:1 “And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”

1
a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for a deity
b : the act of claiming the attributes of deity

2
: irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable

Synonyms: defilement, desecration, impiety, irreverence, profanation, sacrilege

Rev. 17:3-5
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

"The mystery of the Trinity is the central doctrine of the Catholic Faith. Upon it are based all the other teachings of the church..." Handbook for Today's Catholic, p. 11.

"Our opponents sometimes claim that no belief should be held dogmatically which is not explicitly stated in scripture. But the Protestant Churches have themselves accepted such dogmas, as the Trinity, for which there is no such precise authority in the Gospels." Graham Greene, [celebrated Catholic Author], Life Magazine, 30 Oct. 1950, p.51

musterion (G3466) {moos-tay’-ree-on} from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); n n AV – mystery 27; 27 1) hidden thing, secret, mystery

Exodus 23:13 And in all that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods (elowah), neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Anyway.. God's people have the Father's name written on their foreheads; the children of darkness have something else written.. O Israel, choose you this day, if the Father be God, follow Him, if God is the trinity, follow it.. a dead picture, powerless to save.

“the formal doctrine of the Trinity was the result of several inadequate attempts to explain who and what the Christian God really is ... To deal with these problems the Church Fathers met in [A.D.] 325 at the Council of Nicaea to set out an orthodox biblical definition concerning the divine identity.” However, it wasn't until 381, “at the Council of Constantinople, [that] the divinity of the Spirit was affirmed.” The New Bible Dictionary

“The Alexandria catechetical school, which revered Clement of Alexandria and Origen, the greatest theologian of the Greek Church, as its heads, applied the allegorical method to the explanation of Scripture. Its thought was influenced by Plato: its strong point was [pagan] theological speculations. Athanasius and the three Cappadocians [the men whose Trinitarian views were adopted by the Catholic Church at the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople] had been included among its members.” — (Hubert Jedin, Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church: an Historical Outline, 1960, p. 28)

“The term trinity is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency [common use in intellectual discussion] and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries.” — (1996, “Trinity”)

“Three became the most universal number of deity. Sun worship is one of the most primitive forms of religion, and early man sometimes distinguished between rising, midday, and setting sun. The Egyptians, for example, divided the sun god into three deities: Horus, rising sun, Ra or Re, midday sun, and Osiris, old setting sun.” — (Egyptian Deities, New International Encyclopedia. NY: Dodd, 1917. Volume 7, p. 529)

“The ancient Babylonians recognised the doctrine of a trinity, or three persons in one god— as appears from a composite god with three heads forming part of their mythology, and the use of the equilateral triangle, also, as an emblem of such trinity in unity.” — (Thomas Dennis Rock, The Mystical Woman and the Cities of the Nations, 1867, pp. 22, 23)

Two dominant elements brought into Christianity from paganism by Rome were Sun worship symbols and the religious practices of ancient Babylon] "The solar theology of the Chaldaeans [Babylonians], had decisive effect . . . [upon the] final form reached by the religion of the pagan Semites, and following them, by that of the Romans when [the Roman emperor] Aurelian, the conqueror of Palmyra, had raised 'Sol Invictus' [the invincible sun-god] to the rank of supreme divinity in the Empire"--The Cambridge Ancient History, vol. 11, pp. 643, 646-647. From Palmyra he transferred to the new sanctuary the images of Helios [the sun-god] and Bel, the malaise patron god of Babylon--see Cumont, The Oriental Religions In Roman Paganism, 1911 edition, pp. 114-115, 124.

2 Baruk 39:5-8
5 And after these things a fourth kingdom will arise, whose power will be harsh and evil far beyond those which were before it, and it will rule many times as the forests on the plain, and it will hold fast for times, and will exalt itself more than the cedars of Lebanon. 6 And by it the truth will be hidden, and all those who are polluted with iniquity will flee to it, as evil beasts flee and creep into the forest. 7 And it will come to pass when the time of its consummation that it should fall has approached, then the principate of My Messiah will be revealed, which is like the fountain and the vine, and when it is revealed it will root out the multitude of its host. 8 And as touching that which you have seen, the lofty cedar, which was left of that forest, and the fact, that the vine spoke those words with it which you did hear, this is the word.

[BrosefMengele]

. The Trinity is a Christian concept of God

It's an old pagan concept (sun worship)..mixed with Greek philosophy..trinitarians are apostate, being deceived as their fathers the Jews were by Jezebel and Balaam, prophets of Baal.

Deut 32:17
They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.

1 Corinthians 10:20
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

John 4:22
You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the JEWS.

YHVH is the God of the Jews, and thus the true God of the Christians, and Bible as well; not the "trinity", not even Jesus, nor the "third being" holy spirit of the trinity.

[N0rds]

[BrosefMengele]

Why are you posting this?

[BrosefMengele]

Ezekiel 8
12“Son of man,” He said to me, “do you see what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? For they are saying, ‘The LORD does not see us; the LORD has forsaken the land.’”

13Again, He told me, “You will see them committing even greater abominations.”

14Then He brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the LORD, and I saw women sitting there, weeping for Tammuz. 15And He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? You will see even greater abominations than these.”

16So He brought me to the inner court of the house of the LORD, and there at the entrance to the temple of the LORD, between the portico and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs to the temple of the LORD and their faces toward the east; and they were bowing to the east in worship of the sun.

Tammuz is the "Son" in the original Babylonian Trinity.

[N0rds]

Why are you posting this?

To show how ridiculous you zombie jew spaceman spycamera cultists are.

[BrosefMengele]

To show how ridiculous you zombie jew spaceman spycamera cultists are.

The trinity ISN'T Jewish.

[N0rds]

The trinity ISN'T Jewish.

1/3rd of the trinity; jesus,... wasn't jewish?

[BrosefMengele]

Joshua 23:6-8
6 and ye have been very strong to keep and to do the whole that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, so as not to turn aside from it right or left, 7 so as not to go in among these nations, these who are left with you; and of the name of their gods ye do not make mention, nor do ye swear, nor do ye serve them, nor do ye bow yourselves to them; 8 but to Yehowah your God ye do cleave, as ye have done till this day.

[BrosefMengele]

1/3rd of the trinity; jesus,... wasn't jewish?

There is no trinity. It's not the God of the Jews or the Bible.

"Jesus" (Yahushua) was a Torah following, Yahoweh worshipping Hebrew..

[BrosefMengele]

Interesting. I've previously considered paganism to be a strong word...Definitely polytheism though. The trinity divides God into parts: The part that is Jesus, the part that isn't Jesus. That just seems to violate God's oneness but obviously that's a non-Christian's perspective.

What are your thoughts on the Athanasian Creed? I tend to think some level of mysticism is reasonable, as Christians usually argue that the Trinity and Incarnation are mysteries of faith that can't be explained logically. But it also seems that God, if he is just and merciful, wouldn't demand belief in something so onerous to reason and impossible to logically adhere to.

Belief in the trinity certainly does make one a polytheist, the trinity is a pantheon of three separate co-gods; a concept which is not Jewish but BabylonIan (look up Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz). We are supposed to love God with all our hearts and souls but the trinity idol makes it impossible. You cannot divide your love in three and give it all to God, and that is the most important statute.

The ancient Greeks had a trinity, the Egyptians, the Sumerians, the Meccans worshipped three goddesses before Muhammad, etc. The Romans brought the pagan concept into the Christian church..

http://ldolphin.org/semir.html

[nickboy333]

BrosefMengele is a sheltered young man with a pathology of some sort.

[Thelonebadwolf]

BrosefMengele is a sheltered young man with a pathology of some sort.

As much as I disagree with him on things about religion and assuming he was not brainwashed as a child or abused....

According to our Bill of Rights he has absolute freedom of religion. This is his right

[BrosefMengele]

As much as I disagree with him on things about religion and assuming he was not brainwashed as a child or abused....

According to our Bill of Rights he has absolute freedom of religion. This is his right

Was a hard core atheist until 2 years ago

[BrosefMengele]

"The mighty Catholic Church was little more then the Roman Empire baptized."-- A. C, Flick, The Rise of the Mediaeval Church, 1909 edition, p. 148. From ancient Babylon came the cult of the virgin mother-goddess, who was worshiped as the highest of gods--see S. H. Langdon, Semitic Mythology, 1931 edition. This worship was taken over as Mary-worship by Rome. Heathen sun-worship on Sunday was likewise adopted by the Roman apostasy.

"In order to attach to Christianity great attraction in the eyes of the nobility, the priests adopted the outer garments and adornments which were used in pagan cults." -Life of Constantine, Eusabius, cited in *****-Nimalaya, p. 94

"Yet the cross itself is the oldest of phallic emblems, and the lozenge-shaped windows of cathedrals are proof that the yonic symbols have survived the destructions of the pagan Mysteries. The very structure of the church itself is permeated with (sexual symbolism) phallicism. Remove from the Christian Church all emblems of Priapic origin and nothing is left..." -The secret teaching of all ages by Manley P. Hall

In Stanley's History, page 40: "The popes filled the place of the vacant emperors at Rome, inheriting
their power, their prestige, and their titles from PAGANISM."

"In short, sun worship, symbolically speaking, lies at the very heart of the great festivals which the Christian Church celebrates today, and these relics of heathen religion have, through the medium of their sacred rites, curiously enough blended with practices and beliefs utterly antagonistic to the spirit which prompted them." -Sun Lore of All Ages, Olcott, p. 248

It has often been charged… that Catholicism is overlaid with many pagan incrustations. Catholicism is ready to accept that accusation and even to make it her boast… the great god Pan is not really dead, he is baptized” — The Story of Catholicism p 37.

“It is interesting to note how often our Church has availed herself of practices which were in common use among pagans … Thus it is true, in a certain sense, that some Catholic rites and ceremonies are a reproduction of those of pagan creeds…” — (The Externals of the Catholic Church, Her Government, Ceremonies, Festivals, Sacramentals and Devotions, by John F. Sullivan, p 156, published by P.J. Kennedy, NY, 1942).

[thunderykoala]

There are not "three aspects" of God, as per the trinity doctrine, God who you correctly call the Father is ONE. There is NO trinity. That is a false picture of the true God.

The Trinity is literally the picture of God as put forth by the bible, a picture which church fathers and their followers recognized as well. In another thread, you seemed to acknowledge that the Son of God is the Word of God incarnated, as in this quote by you:

The WORD of God is the SON of God.

Yet, for whatever reason you'll ignore this passage:

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1.

An aspect is a facet. The Word of God and the Spirit/Breath of God (literally with God in their titles) are facets (aka aspects) of God. Scripture also personifies those facets. Which means they are recognized as "persons" as well. If your genuinely held stance is to suggest that the Word of God and the Spirit of God aren't God, then you're contradicting scripture. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not pagan deities, nor is it polytheism.

[thunderykoala]

Interesting. I've previously considered paganism to be a strong word...Definitely polytheism though. The trinity divides God into parts: The part that is Jesus, the part that isn't Jesus. That just seems to violate God's oneness but obviously that's a non-Christian's perspective.

What are your thoughts on the Athanasian Creed? I tend to think some level of mysticism is reasonable, as Christians usually argue that the Trinity and Incarnation are mysteries of faith that can't be explained logically. But it also seems that God, if he is just and merciful, wouldn't demand belief in something so onerous to reason and impossible to logically adhere to.

I wouldn't consider what Brosef said to be interesting since it's not even true. Biblical scripture, the same thing Brosef is using in an attempt to refute what I'm saying, aligns the aforementioned aspects with God, even calling them God. He's basically aligning Jesus and the Holy Spirit with Satan and demons. So I wouldn't take his words as credible at face value. And as I mentioned already, these aspects were given human qualities in scripture as well, which accounts for the aspects also being recognized/interpreted as persons.

Basically, the Trinity is a reasonable and logical interpretation of what is presented within scripture, since scripture states that the Father is God, that the Holy Spirit is God, and that Jesus is God. And the Trinity states that those three are God but are not the same, which coincides with what is conveyed in scripture. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. And similarly the Holy Spirit isn't the Father or Son or vice versa, yet all three are God. This is what the bible states and how the church fathers interpreted it as well.

The concept of the Trinity doesn't have anything to do with the sun or sun worship. It's just putting together the pieces that are presented within the bible in a way that connects them and doesn't ignore scripture. Basically, the concept of the Trinity applies this conundrum into a succinct, logical template rather than outright denying and rejecting what scripture said. So to call them mysteries would be accurate. But to ignore the Trinity is to dismiss scripture outright, if that makes sense.

[thunderykoala]

The ancient Greeks had a trinity, the Egyptians, the Sumerians, the Meccans worshipped three goddesses before Muhammad, etc. The Romans brought the pagan concept into the Christian church..

Yes, because the bible certainly doesn't mention three distinct aspects, aka a trinity. Unless...

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," - Matthew 28:19

I guess that quote involving those three distinct aspects is a Quaternity (aka four aspects). Or maybe the other two aren't even there, and it really just says to baptize in the name of the Father. I wonder which perception is more accurate given that it mentions three aspects. But I guess that piece of scripture is just a pagan concept.

[lasher]

The Father is recognized as the source or origin of the proceeding aspects of God: the Son and Holy Spirit.

ooof. That's arianism patrick.

[thunderykoala]

ooof. That's arianism patrick.

Could you elaborate on that thought? It brings up different ideas to me.

[lasher]

Could you elaborate on that thought? It brings up different ideas to me.

So the problem I have with your statement is that the Father is the source or origin of the son and spirit. It's the same problem the council of Nicaea addressed a dozen centuries ago or so. Actually I think I was maybe to hasty in calling it arianism. With qualification on those statements it could probably be orthodox.

Anyways, Arianism asserts that the son and the spirit depend on the existence of the father. This gets really contentious, and I'm not sure you even intended it. You might already know the Athanius Creed, but if now here it is:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

The key is to keep the coeternal attribute of God. That means the son is eternally begotten by the father, and the spirit eternally proceeded from the father. I feel like you might have meant that, so I might have jumped the gun.

[thunderykoala]

So the problem I have with your statement is that the Father is the source or origin of the son and spirit. It's the same problem the council of Nicaea addressed a few dozen centuries ago. Actually I think I was maybe to hasty in calling it arianism. With qualification on those statements it could probably be orthodox.

Anyways, Arianism asserts that the son and the spirit depend on the existence of the father. This gets really contentious, and I'm not sure you even intended it. You might already know the Athanius Creed, but if now here it is:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

The key is to keep the coeternal attribute of God. That means the son is eternally begotten by the father, and the spirit eternally proceeded from the spirit. I feel like you might have meant that, so I might have jumped the gun.

I guess the idea I was trying to convey is that Jesus was begotten of God the father. The Word existed pre-incarnation, but became Jesus when born through Mary. And then later the Father sent the Holy Spirit, which again existed in some pre-New Testament understanding as the Spirit of God. I guess my choice of words wasn't appropriate. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

It would be pretty silly of me to defend the Trinity by using rhetoric by someone who intended to deny the Trinity.

[lasher]

I guess the idea I was trying to convey is that Jesus was begotten of God the father. The Word existed pre-incarnation, but became Jesus when born through Mary. And then later the Father sent the Holy Spirit, which again existed in some pre-New Testament understanding as the Spirit of God. I guess my choice of words wasn't appropriate. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

Nah this clarification works for me. Thanks

[lasher]

NEVERTHELESS, no thread about the Trinity gets away without Patricks input (OP this is not directed at you in the sense of disagreement.)

[thunderykoala]

To show how ridiculous you zombie jew spaceman spycamera cultists are.

I think this discussion is best intended to exist within the confines of Christianity, where people already believe in God and/or are Christians. I certainly wouldn't thrust the concept of the Trinity on someone who is atheist or agnostic. I would probably start off much more lightly by trying to establish the existence of Jesus as a historical figure, and then try to work from there. Because certainly if I wasn't Christian I'd look at some of these concepts skeptically myself, and actually have.

[BrosefMengele]

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," - Matthew 28:19.

That verse doesn't say that God has "three aspects" or is "a trinity".

That verse is the only time in the whole New Testament where it says to baptize "in the name of the Holy Spirit", something which the church in the book of acts never did.

Trinity does not exist, it's not Biblical.