The Trinity

[thunderykoala]

That is an improper translation of that verse, it's supposed to NAME Yahoweh as the ONLY God.

They didn't even have a conception of a triune god, they were MONOTHEISTS, NOT POLYTHEISTS.

Deut 6:4 is NOT referring to "the Holy Trinity" god but YAHOWEH the God of the Jews.

Deut 6:4 was quoted BY JESUS as being the most important command.

Yahoweh is NAMED in that verse as the ONLY true God, alone.

Yahoweh (the Father) (the God of the Jews) is ONE.

Yahweh, from what I read, basically means "I AM WHO I AM", or "I am", and other interpretations also have it as "Lord." So God's pronouncement that He is, and that He is Lord, does not work counter to the concept of the Trinity. So it's a perfectly adequate translation. Otherwise, you'll have to throw the entire English translated bible (and the New Testament) out because it's not written in ancient Hebrew, or the language that preceded ancient Hebrew. And if you read the Old Testament, you'll also see that God is referred to by different names:

El, ELOAH, ELOHIM, EL SHADDAI, ADONAI, YHWH, YAHWEH, JEHOVAH, YAHWEH-JIREH, YAHWEH-RAPHA, YAHWEH-NISSI, YAHWEH-M'KADDESH, YAHWEH-SHALOM, YAHWEH-ELOHIM, YAHWEH-TSIDKENU, YAHWEH-ROHI, YAHWEH-SHAMMAH, YAHWEH-SABAOTH, EL ELYON, EL ROI, EL-OLAM, EL-GIBHOR, God, the Spirit of God, the Word of God, Lord, LORD, I AM, I Am who I Am, I am that I am, The Alpha and the Omega, the Father, etc.

So which is it? Which one of those names is the right one for God, a God that has used all of those names and/or had people refer to him by those names?

[BrosefMengele]

See? You don't even know who your god is.

You worship an "unknown god".

"You ALONE, Yahweh, are God." Isaiah 37:20
"Before Me there was NO GOD FORMED, And there will be NONE AFTER ME." Isaiah 43:10
"'I am the FIRST AND I am the LAST, And there IS NO GOD BESIDES ME." Isaiah 44:6
"Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of NONE." Isaiah 44:8
"I am Yahweh, and there IS NO OTHER; BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD." Isaiah 45:5
"Surely, God is with you, and there is NONE ELSE, NO OTHER GOD." Isaiah 45:14
"I am Yahweh, and THERE IS NONE ELSE." Isaiah 45:18
"Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME, A righteous God and a Savior; THERE IS NONE EXCEPT ME." Isaiah 45:21
"I am God, and THERE IS NO OTHER; I am God, and there is NO ONE like Me" Isaiah 46:9

Ohhh why can't you refute those verses..?

[thunderykoala]

See? You don't even know who your god is.

You worship an "unknown god".

"You ALONE, Yahweh, are God." Isaiah 37:20
"Before Me there was NO GOD FORMED, And there will be NONE AFTER ME." Isaiah 43:10
"'I am the FIRST AND I am the LAST, And there IS NO GOD BESIDES ME." Isaiah 44:6
"Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of NONE." Isaiah 44:8
"I am Yahweh, and there IS NO OTHER; BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD." Isaiah 45:5
"Surely, God is with you, and there is NONE ELSE, NO OTHER GOD." Isaiah 45:14
"I am Yahweh, and THERE IS NONE ELSE." Isaiah 45:18
"Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME, A righteous God and a Savior; THERE IS NONE EXCEPT ME." Isaiah 45:21
"I am God, and THERE IS NO OTHER; I am God, and there is NO ONE like Me" Isaiah 46:9

Ohhh why can't you refute those verses eh??? Ohhh.

Are you being serious or are you trolling? God has been referred to by all of those names, and has said he was those names. Yahweh means Lord. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to get at anymore. Those verses are encompassed by the Trinity. El Shaddai is also a name for God that is used in the bible. El Shaddai is God. Yahweh is God. The Trinity is God. Do you see the pattern?

[BrosefMengele]

And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only
true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. John 17:3

You are my witnesses,” declares YHWH, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Isaiah 43:10

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his SERVANT Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. Acts 3:13

“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Deuteronomy 32:39

[thunderykoala]

And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only
true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. John 17:3

You are my witnesses,” declares YHWH, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Isaiah 43:10

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his SERVANT Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. Acts 3:13

“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Deuteronomy 32:39

Jesus is still referred to as God. Even your large quoted scripture in bold comes from a book in the bible that begins by saying Jesus is God, lol. The word "Yahweh" when translated into the same language as the original NT scriptures, comes out as "Κυρίου." When Jesus is referred to as "Lord" in the New Testament, "Lord" is "Κυρίου" (aka Yahweh). Therefore, even by your desire to seperate Yahweh and Jesus based on the name Yahweh, both Jesus and God are called Lord/Κυρίου/Yahweh. What you can do is say the teaching is confusing, but you can't validate your perception without outright dismissing scripture. But the Trinity already accounts for that sort of confusion by referring to it as a mystery. And it also addresses those seemingly conflicting versus. So it's still the most reasonable concept.

[Ron878]

There is no trinity. It's not the God of the Jews or the Bible.

"Jesus" (Yahushua) was a Torah following, Yahoweh worshipping Hebrew..

The Lord is wise.

[MuzzieChik786]

No, but sorry for accidentally pm'in you, meant to send it to the other Muzzie___ user.

Eh? Remember what I said about not showing your mental health issues on public forums?

Islam is a counterfeit of the true church in Christ BTW. . Just replace Muhammad with Jesus sister..

That's a big, fat, NEGATIVE. You need to take a simple course on Islam to understand this.

We -

a) Do not worship Muhammad. He was only a man, an ordained messenger like all the others.
b) We do not think the "holy spirit" is anything more than an angel. Another of God's creations.

Get your faxrate homie.

The bible acknowledges those three persons as being God. Members within early Christianity did as well. It's sort of an attempt to reconcile the thought of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father being acknowledged as God within Christianity, since oral tradition and the bible (which some books involve some of the oral tradition being written down) puts it that way. And the bible even says that God has his ways and does things that we don't know and aren't meant to know. So it also accounts for the Trinity being recognized as a mystery.

That's true, God does have His ways, but one thing that is unquestionable in all religious scripture is that God, repeatedly, states that there are NO partners to Him. He is One, The Only.

So again, I ask, why would God want to even give the perception that He is 3 instead of One? It makes no logical sense whatsoever. In fact, the theory of trinity has a pagan influence. If you study Hinduism, they also believe in many manifestations, or as Lasher put it "attributes' of God.

Just lol at humans thinking they're so damn important that God needs to show His attributes to them. You know we're a speck in relation to all His creations right?

[BrosefMengele]

a) Do not worship Muhammad. He was only a man, an ordained messenger like all the others.

Again, just replace Muhammad with Jesus, God's true servant and messenger.

) We do not think the "holy spirit" is anything more than an angel. Another of God's creations.

That sounds trinitarian.

The Holy spirit is not an angel, or a spirit, or a individual being. It's the MIND of God that God gives us when we are converted.

Proverbs 1:23
Repent at my rebuke! Then I will pour out my thoughts to you, I will make known to you my teachings.

[MuzzieChik786]

Again, just replace Muhammad with Jesus, God's true servant and messenger.



That sounds trinitarian.

Sorry, I meant the Angel Gabriel. No, we Muslims, don't separate the "being" of God from Himself.

[BrosefMengele]

Sorry, I meant the Angel Gabriel. No, we Muslims, don't separate the "being" of God from Himself.

Then you must also believe the angel Gabriel "goes into you"... influences your thoughts and mind...

[BetaAsPhuck]

B]So again, I ask, why would God want to even give the perception that He is 3 instead of One? [/B]

Why would God present 99 names in the Quran?

Names that give us the perception of mutually exclusive attributes? (ie. The All Loving, The Avenger, The Kind, The Distresser, etc)

Whatever answer you give, apply that same reasoning to why 3 attributes/forms of God are relayed in the bible.

Again (for the record), I believe in Oneness theology, not the Trinitarian theology. Though I have no beef with Trinitarian peeps.

[BrosefMengele]

Why would God rely 99 names in the Quran?

Whatever answer you give, apply that same reason to why 3 attributes/forms of God are relayed in the bible.

Again (for the record), I believe in Oneness theology, not the Trinitarian theology. Though I have no beef with Trinitarian peeps.

You are a trinitarian, liar. God doesn't accept mere lip service.

[BrosefMengele]

Jesus is still referred to as God.

So is Moses, lol.

And said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Exodus 7:1

[BetaAsPhuck]

You are a trinitarian, liar. God doesn't accept mere lip service.

I'm genuinely curious how you interpret:

Matthew 12:8

8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Matthew 4: 5-7

"5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”"

John 14: 8-10

"…8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.

John 10:30

"30. I and the Father are one.” "

[BetaAsPhuck]

This is stepping outside of the bible, and into the realm of Near Death Experiences, regarding the divinity of Jesus...

I've looked into a number of different religions over the years... Buddhism, Sikhism, Taoism, and I used to be a muslim.

IMO there is no historical/religious figure that literally embodies the messages of Near Death Experiences like Jesus.

I really like Sikhism and Mahayana Buddhism, but I was really surprised by the parallels between the descriptions of the mystical experiences of Christians like; St Francis of Assisi, St Clare of Assisi, Lady Julian of Norwich, and the descriptions that numerous Near Death Experiencers have when they talk about their counters with God/the Light. Practically identical.

Also I found the story of Akiane Kramarik compelling (modern mystic and artist, who met Jesus as a child. Who painted a picture of Jesus, that another child who had a near death experience where he met Jesus , saw the painting and said "that's him!".

It was the (IMO) compelling parallels between my research into near death experiences, Jesus, people who had visions of Jesus, and Christian spirituality, that helped me come to the conclusion that Jesus is the incarnation of the divine...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLC4X0gQVAc

[BrosefMengele]

I'm genuinely curious how you interpret:

Matthew 12:8

8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Matthew 4: 5-7

"5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”"

John 14: 8-10

"…8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.

John 10:30

"30. I and the Father are one.” "

So first you claim you believe in God's Oneness but in the next breath you attack his oneness and defend his threeness. Make up your mind, you double-minded heathen. The Messiah (and us through the Holy Spirit) are one with God, we are one figuritively not literally.

Jesus also said that "my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28) and that "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" (John 20:17). In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prayed to the Father. In this prayer, Jesus asked: "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one..." (John 17:20-21).

So are WE one in the way that Trinitarians say that the Father and Son are one? IMPOSSIBLE.

So the oneness that Jesus was talking about was NOT the oneness that Trinitarians talk about.

[BetaAsPhuck]

So first you claim you believe in God's Oneness but in the next breath you are defend his threeness. Make up your mind, you double-minded heathen. The Messiah (and us through the Holy Spirit) are one with God, we are one figuritively not literally.

Can you explain to me how you interpret the scriptures that I presented?

[BetaAsPhuck]

So are WE one in the way that Trinitarians say that the Father and Son are one? IMPOSSIBLE.

So the oneness that Jesus was talking about was NOT the oneness that Trinitarians talk about.

3 questions..

1)What kind of oneness do you think he was talking about?

2) Can you explain to me how you interpret the specific scriptures that I presented to you?

3) How do you reconcile all of the verses combined, and not just the ones you presented (like Matthew 12:8 where he literally says he is Lord)?

Oneness theology...

The Father = the transcendental, absolute form of God. (eg. The Greatest.)

Jesus = the Incarnation of God (post resurrection was when divinity and the flesh was fully combined).



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsLZ0cyFwQc

Video that expands on the above...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyC1Y6GO11s

[BrosefMengele]

The Father = the transcendental, absolute form of God. (eg. The Greatest.)

*The Only* God.

Jesus = the Incarnation of God

Wrong.

Jesus is God's SON incarnated as a man. You are Antichrist because you deny that Jesus is the Son of God.

The Trinity idol requires one to be a liar, and Antichrist.

[BetaAsPhuck]

*The Only* God.



Wrong.

Jesus is God's SON incarnated as a man. You are Antichrist because you deny that Jesus is the Son of God.

The Trinity idol requires one to be a liar, and Antichrist.

I'll repeat my 3 questions, since you dodged them...

1)What kind of oneness do you think he was talking about?

2) Can you explain to me how you interpret the specific scriptures that I presented to you?

3) How do you reconcile all of the verses combined, and not just the ones you presented (like Matthew 12:8 where he literally says he is Lord)?

[fitnessislife]

You are a trinitarian, liar. God doesn't accept mere lip service.

[MuzzieChik786]

Why would God present 99 names in the Quran?

Names that give us the perception of mutually exclusive attributes? (ie. The All Loving, The Avenger, The Kind, The Distresser, etc)

Whatever answer you give, apply that same reasoning to why 3 attributes/forms of God are relayed in the bible.

Again (for the record), I believe in Oneness theology, not the Trinitarian theology. Though I have no beef with Trinitarian peeps.

Eh? What kind of knuckleheaded logic is that? 99 NAMES of Allah (swt). They're names of God, not separate physical manifestations. In the Trinity, at least two of the three are physical manifestations of the attributes (Jesus and God the Father).

My first name begins with S. But people have called me sister, daughter, colleague, student, wife, aunt etc. That doesn't mean I'm split into separate beings each time I'm referred to as something other than S. I'm still one person.

.....

Brosef, if you weren't so obviously mentally challenged, I'd invite you to Islam since you're almost already there. But alas, we don't accept half people hobbits like you.

[BlackJack619]

Eh? What kind of knuckleheaded logic is that? 99 NAMES of Allah (swt). They're names of God, not separate physical manifestations. In the Trinity, at least two of the three are physical manifestations of the attributes (Jesus and God the Father).

My first name begins with S. But people have called me sister, daughter, colleague, student, wife, aunt etc. That doesn't mean I'm split into separate beings each time I'm referred to as something other than S. I'm still one person.

.....

Brosef, if you weren't so obviously mentally challenged, I'd invite you to Islam since you're almost already there. But alas, we don't accept half people hobbits like you.

can I get an invite?

[MuzzieChik786]

can I get an invite?

Sure. Read the Qur'an in a language you understand and then we'll talk. I recommend translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali for readability ease.

[BrosefMengele]

Eh? What kind of knuckleheaded logic is that? 99 NAMES of Allah (swt). They're names of God, not separate physical manifestations. In the Trinity, at least two of the three are physical manifestations of the attributes (Jesus and God the Father).

My first name begins with S. But people have called me sister, daughter, colleague, student, wife, aunt etc. That doesn't mean I'm split into separate beings each time I'm referred to as something other than S. I'm still one person.

.....

Brosef, if you weren't so obviously mentally challenged, I'd invite you to Islam since you're almost already there. But alas, we don't accept half people hobbits like you.

Islam is a false church just like Roman Catholicism. You are both Antichrist.

Antichrist is the pope and the Turk [Muslim] together. A beast full of life must have a body and soul. The spirit or soul of Antichrist is the pope, his flesh or body the Turk.

Martin Luther

[lasher]

Islam is a false church just like Roman Catholicism. You are both Antichrist.

Antichrist is the pope and the Turk [Muslim] together. A beast full of life must have a body and soul. The spirit or soul of Antichrist is the pope, his flesh or body the Turk.

Martin Luther

kek

Here the foolishness of God and the wisdom of the world clash. For when the world hears God speaking of Himself as being one God and yet three distinct Persons, it considers such declarations very offensive and foolish; and all who listen to reason and hear this consider people who believe and teach this doctrine downright fools. Consequently, this article of faith has been assailed continually, from the times of the apostles and the church fathers to the present day, as histories testify, particularly the Gospel of Saint John, which he wrote for the special purpose of confirming this article against Cerinthus, the heretic who began the attack during the very lifetime of the apostles and tried to prove from Moses that there is only One God. Therefore, he said, our Lord Jesus Christ cannot be true God, because God and man cannot be one. Thus he continued to prate according to reason and imagined that matters in heaven must be carried on as he devised them and in no other way.

But shame on you, disgraceful reason! How can we miserable, poor mortals comprehend this mystery? We do not know the how of our own speaking, laughing, or sleeping, although we daily perform and experience these natural functions. And yet we want to speak of God and the conditions existing within His divine Being. We want to do so without the Word of God, solely according to our own mind. Is it not blindness above all blindness for a man who cannot explain the most insignificant function he daily observes in his own body to presume to know what is beyond and above all reason and of which no one except God alone can speak, and to have the audacity to state so rashly and bluntly that Christ is not God?

[BrosefMengele]

So? Martin Luther is not infallible.

[BetaAsPhuck]

Eh? What kind of knuckleheaded logic is that?

Insulting me?

OK.

My first name begins with S. But people have called me sister, daughter, colleague, student, wife, aunt etc. That doesn't mean I'm split into separate beings each time I'm referred to as something other than S. I'm still one person.

Like I said, just apply the above reasoning to; the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit - when you read it in the new testament. (ie. Oneness theology.)

[MuzzieChik786]

Insulting me?

OK.



Like I said, just apply the above reasoning to; the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit - when you read it in the new testament. (ie. Oneness theology.)

No, not insulting you. But the leap you just made doesn't make sense.

The same reasoning cannot be applied to the Christian concept of Trinity because of the reasons I listed above.

[BetaAsPhuck]

No, not insulting you.

It's there for everyone to see.

But the leap you just made doesn't make sense.

'The leap' was asking you to apply whatever reasoning you would use to explain the names, to the father, son and the holy spirit.

The same reasoning cannot be applied to the Christian concept of Trinity because of the reasons I listed above.

No, your reasoning can't - I underlined why it can't below...

My first name begins with S. But people have called me sister, daughter, colleague, student, wife, aunt etc. That doesn't mean I'm split into separate beings each time I'm referred to as something other than S. I'm still one person.

However, it can still apply to oneness theology.