*** Official Tennis Thread Pt. 2****

[Trudope]

Lol relax bro.

First, we know that form doesn't mean much when these two play as I've seen Nadal in worse form than Federer coming into a match and still winning.

Nobody knows what would have happened if they met at Wimbledon 09 as Nadal had to pull out with an injury. I am pretty confident Nadal would have beaten Federer at Wimbledon 10. Federer lost to Berdych in 4 sets, who Nadal crushed in the final. Also the semis and finals was probably the best grass court tennis I've seen Nadal play. His level vs Murray was insane.

Also I'm not pointing out the fact losing to Novak is bad, but losing to him on your favorite surface in a GS is another thing. Even when Novak was beating Nadal on clay, it still took him several tries when they actually played at the French to finally beat him. Nadal is 6-1 all time vs Novak @ the French; 3-1 after 2011 in Novak's "prime".

Federer 1-2.

Since I can't insert gifs yet i'll just put haha.gif

Oh and Nadal probably would have beaten Federer this year at Wimbledon if they played as well.

[Trudope]

Federer considering returning to clay in 2019. If he does, it's his last year on tour.

[Dominik]

Lol relax bro.

First, we know that form doesn't mean much when these two play as I've seen Nadal in worse form than Federer coming into a match and still winning.

Nobody knows what would have happened if they met at Wimbledon 09 as Nadal had to pull out with an injury. I am pretty confident Nadal would have beaten Federer at Wimbledon 10. Federer lost to Berdych in 4 sets, who Nadal crushed in the final. Also the semis and finals was probably the best grass court tennis I've seen Nadal play. His level vs Murray was insane.

Also I'm not pointing out the fact losing to Novak is bad, but losing to him on your favorite surface in a GS is another thing. Even when Novak was beating Nadal on clay, it still took him several tries when they actually played at the French to finally beat him. Nadal is 6-1 all time vs Novak @ the French; 3-1 after 2011 in Novak's "prime".

Federer 1-2.

Since I can't insert gifs yet i'll just put haha.gif

Oh and Nadal probably would have beaten Federer this year at Wimbledon if they played as well.

I agree about 2010 and that he probably would have beaten him this year unless they closed the roof. 2011 and 2018 are maybes for me but I'm happy to go with Nadal there. They're both canceled out by 2015 and 2017 where I believe Federer would have won easily.

Matchups don't exist in a vacuum. You can't say because Berdych troubled Federer for a few years but not Nadal that Nadal beats Federer there. Federer was 19-2 vs. Davydenko yet he troubled Nadal winning 6 out of 8 on HC. Same goes for Stan vs. Djokovic on HC in slams while Federer and Nadal owned him.

Anyway regardless of how you crunch the numbers Federer is coming out on top on grass most of the time.

As I've said before if they played an equal number of matches across the season the H2H would be even. Nadal is the better player on slower surfaces; Federer is superior on faster surfaces. It really is that simple. First half of the year advantage Nadal. Second half advantage Federer.

The H2H is skewed because over 2/3 of their matches (71%) took place in the first half of the season from AO-RG. I can assure you if the situation were reversed and Federer hardly played him on clay or slow HC I'd be making the same argument about it being unfair to Nadal.

[Dominik]

Anyway no one wants to read this stuff for the 1000th time so I'll call a truce on this.

Just to make it crystal clear I get zero satisfaction from Nadal losing or withdrawing from tournaments. You won't see any fist pumping from me after the Wimbledon loss or US Open retirement. That doesn't mean I can't speculate on injuries or question his schedule, etc. but I do not get any enjoyment from his misfortune.

I also like seeing competitive draws. If he'd converted that BP against Novak and went on to beat Anderson in the final and win Wimbledon I would have been extremely happy for him as he would have been a deserving champion. He played the two best matches of the tournament and it was far more entertaining than Federer's cakewalk last year.

[Trudope]

^ I never said he would have a positive H2H vs Federer on grass/faster surfaces. I am saying that he would be better than 2-13.

Would you agree that the advantage for Nadal on slower surfaces is greater than Federers advantage on faster?

In the end, if you were to make a case that either of them (or Djokovic) are the GOAT, you have a very strong argument.

I've said before I like Fed, but I just don't like his cult like fanbase who won't hear any sides other than "FEDERER GREATEST EVER". Don't like Rafa or Djokers cult like base as well. I was posting on MTF and that entire place is just cults.

[Tuga88]

Anyway no one wants to read this stuff for the 1000th time so I'll call a truce on this.

Just to make it crystal clear I get zero satisfaction from Nadal losing or withdrawing from tournaments. You won't see any fist pumping from me after the Wimbledon loss or US Open retirement. That doesn't mean I can't speculate on injuries or question his schedule, etc. but I do not get any enjoyment from his misfortune.

I also like seeing competitive draws. If he'd converted that BP against Novak and went on to beat Anderson in the final and win Wimbledon I would have been extremely happy for him as he would have been a deserving champion. He played the two best matches of the tournament and it was far more entertaining than Federer's cakewalk last year.

Tbh I've always found it odd how you say you respect and admire Nadal and yet you think he is constantly faking injuries, ducking opponents, calling injury timeouts just to rattle his opponents etc....for me, those factors would make it impossible to respect a player.

[Jayarbie]

^ I never said he would have a positive H2H vs Federer on grass/faster surfaces. I am saying that he would be better than 2-13.

Would you agree that the advantage for Nadal on slower surfaces is greater than Federers advantage on faster?

In the end, if you were to make a case that either of them (or Djokovic) are the GOAT, you have a very strong argument.

I've said before I like Fed, but I just don't like his cult like fanbase who won't hear any sides other than "FEDERER GREATEST EVER". Don't like Rafa or Djokers cult like base as well. I was posting on MTF and that entire place is just cults.

A couple things:

1. Nadal's advantage on clay is bigger than anyone's advantage on a single surface ever. Bar none. So, yes, it's bigger than Fed's advantage on faster surfaces.
2. I'm not a Federer fanboi, but he is objectively the greatest ever. It's really only the Nadal cultists who argue otherwise.
3. Djokovic has a chance to catch up if he continues this year's form for a couple more years. He & Fed are the best players across all surfaces in my time (since late 70s). Lendl would be the only one comparable if he had ever been able to break through at Wimbledon.

[Dominik]

Tbh I've always found it odd how you say you respect and admire Nadal and yet you think he is constantly faking injuries, ducking opponents, calling injury timeouts just to rattle his opponents etc....for me, those factors would make it impossible to respect a player.

I admire what he's accomplished, how he competes, and how beating him on clay is the toughest assignment in tennis. That doesn't mean I necessarily agree with the way he's gone about it every step of the way.

Not sure what is odd about it. Surely you can respect Lewis Hamilton for what he does on the track like the flawless qualifying lap in Singapore but still think the guy is annoying when he's losing, preaching on social media, etc. A lot of people respect Michael Jordan the athlete but don't necessarily like him as a person or agree with everything he did out there to be the best.

In Nadal's case I've never hidden my dislike for the illegal coaching (which Toni openly admitted to), the strategic MTOs, time wasting, the OCD routines with the water bottles, fishing his shorts out of his ass crack on every point, the grunting and OTT celebrations like lawn mower starts when an opponent dumps a ball into the net on a BP, etc. along with what I perceive to be exaggerating injuries at times. However I can still respect him as one of the greatest to play the game, even more so now that they're all closer to the end.

[nvrstopworking]

^ I never said he would have a positive H2H vs Federer on grass/faster surfaces. I am saying that he would be better than 2-13.

Would you agree that the advantage for Nadal on slower surfaces is greater than Federers advantage on faster?

In the end, if you were to make a case that either of them (or Djokovic) are the GOAT, you have a very strong argument.

I've said before I like Fed, but I just don't like his cult like fanbase who won't hear any sides other than "FEDERER GREATEST EVER". Don't like Rafa or Djokers cult like base as well. I was posting on MTF and that entire place is just cults.

Not sure how appreciating the game’s greatest player became “cultish”. Watching Fed is like watching Brady... or Lebron... a guy that just plays the game at the highest level and makes it look easy.

He also holds a ridiculous amount of records... 20 slams, 10 slam finals in a row and most consecutive weeks at #1 being some of the most impressive. He’s also a master on all surfaces... yes, even clay where he probably would have won 5 FOs if he didn’t have to play Rafa.

If Rafa can close the gap in slams and win more titles away from the clay it’ll go a long way in his argument for taking over the GOAT role. No one’s arguing that. It’s possible. Just annoying that his fans have been trumpeting his clay success and the H2H vs Fed as the main reasons why he should be ranked higher.

[Dominik]

Just annoying that his fans have been trumpeting his clay success and the H2H vs Fed as the main reasons why he should be ranked higher.

This is the source of most of the arguments.

If you're a Federer fan then all those records surely count for more than the H2H against one player. And if you're a Nadal fan you're tired of hearing about the player who's ahead when you think your guy owns him.

Djokovic's resurgence changes the dynamic. The slam difference between Novak and Rafa is now the same as Nadal and Federer. 3 slams. Novak has the winning H2H, greater periods of dominance, more weeks at #1, all the Masters, 5 more HC slams, etc.

Djokovic-Nadal H2H since 2011 is 20-9 Djokovic. Here's an even worse stat for Nadal. Off clay since 2011 he's only beaten Djokovic twice (2013).

2 wins off clay in 29 matches against Djokovic in the last 8 seasons and 0 in the last 5 years. That's brutal.

[Dominik]

0:52

[iabs]

Holy crap, Djokovic can't play doubles for shiit lol.

[Tuga88]

I admire what he's accomplished, how he competes, and how beating him on clay is the toughest assignment in tennis. That doesn't mean I necessarily agree with the way he's gone about it every step of the way.

Not sure what is odd about it. Surely you can respect Lewis Hamilton for what he does on the track like the flawless qualifying lap in Singapore but still think the guy is annoying when he's losing, preaching on social media, etc. A lot of people respect Michael Jordan the athlete but don't necessarily like him as a person or agree with everything he did out there to be the best.

Moaning to interviewers or ranting on social media is completely different to blatant cheating or consistently lying to save face or get into an opponents head. I wouldn't respect or admire any athlete that regularly partakes in those kinds of "tactics", nor do the majority of people.

[Dominik]

Moaning to interviewers or ranting on social media is completely different to blatant cheating or consistently lying to save face or get into an opponents head. I wouldn't respect or admire any athlete that regularly partakes in those kinds of "tactics", nor do the majority of people.

Fair enough.

Uncle Toni openly admitted to illegally coaching him so that's a form of cheating. The reality is most coaches would have signals so it's never really bothered me. Wouldn't do Federer much good because he's too stubborn. I've lost count of how many times he's refused to change tactics when they're not working. If there was a signal from Ljubicic or Severin for "stop hitting to the Delpo forehand" I'm sure they would have used it.

Anyway odd as it may be to you I can still respect what he's achieved and how hard he competes.

[rippedandforty]

This is the source of most of the arguments.

If you're a Federer fan then all those records surely count for more than the H2H against one player. And if you're a Nadal fan you're tired of hearing about the player who's ahead when you think your guy owns him.

Djokovic's resurgence changes the dynamic. The slam difference between Novak and Rafa is now the same as Nadal and Federer. 3 slams. Novak has the winning H2H, greater periods of dominance, more weeks at #1, all the Masters, 5 more HC slams, etc.

Djokovic-Nadal H2H since 2011 is 20-9 Djokovic. Here's an even worse stat for Nadal. Off clay since 2011 he's only beaten Djokovic twice (2013).

2 wins off clay in 29 matches against Djokovic in the last 8 seasons and 0 in the last 5 years. That's brutal.

Wow those are some huge numbers. And to think Djok is in such good shape physically and mentally. There should me several more titles.

[sammy21]

Girlfriend surprised me with laver cup tickets today since she knew I wanted to see fed play before he retired...boy did he put on a clinic. It was reminiscent of him at Indian wells 2017, kyrgios had no answers.

[Dominik]

Cue the lmaolololol it's an exo, lmaolololol it's kyrgios but old man Fed deserves respect for how he returns that cannon for a serve.



I'll call it now — he's winning Shanghai. Novak takes Beijing and Paris.

End of year will probably look like this again.

[Dominik]

All good and well to have big names in attendance but what elevates it from an exo is the performances of players who aren't on the big stage every week and take it seriously.

Case in point Kevin Anderson. Definitely wasn't mailing it in while Djokovic is probably treating it as a week off.



8:20 I wonder what Novak really thinks about this coaching business

[iabs]

Fed and Djokovic have 0 chemistry lmao.

That Fed coaching bit was cringe as fuk.

[Dominik]

Fed and Djokovic have 0 chemistry lmao.

It was always going to be awkward. I think the difference is Nadal was more into it. Djokovic probably made it clear to Federer after winning Wimbledon, Cincy, US Open, and gearing up for a tilt at #1 that he would be taking it easy this week and is there in name only to sell tickets. He's not treating it as more than an exo.

That Fed coaching bit was cringe as fuk.

The problem is Borg doesn't say anything which leaves some awkward silences for the TV cameras. Federer probably figures he might as well use the opportunity to keep reassuring everyone they get on fine. And to casual viewers who think Djokovic is trying it adds some interest.

Of course if you hate the guy you'll think everything he does is "cringe as fuk" but I really don't think he's sitting there thinking he's in any position to coach Novak Djokovic. He's in PR mode since it's his event.

[Dominik]

Looks like Dimitrov borrowed Tom Cruise's boots for the night and forgot to have his pants fitted.

[ohiostate124]

Fed and Djokovic have 0 chemistry lmao.

That Fed coaching bit was cringe as fuk.

We all know Fed and Djokovic don’t like each other. Probably doesn’t help that Djokovic doesn’t seem to be taking this as seriously as Nadal did last year.

[Trudope]

We all know Fed and Djokovic don’t like each other. Probably doesn’t help that Djokovic doesn’t seem to be taking this as seriously as Nadal did last year.

Another reason why people will always like Fed and Nadal more than Djokovic.

Also, what happened to Kyrgios? Guy was playing Federer tough in every match they faced before and this year he's gotten smoked. The gap should be closing, not widening. Guy has a good serve and decent forehand, but the bankhand isn't very good and his movement is average. He's like an Andy Roddick with slightly more talent but way worse work ethic = Andy being a lot better than him. No wonder why Federer smokes him.

Also if that match indicated anything, it's that Fed should not be playing anymore slow surfaces.

Play Hopman - Miami
Skip clay court swing
Halle - Wimbledon
Skip NA hardcourt swing unless they speed up the USOpen again.
Indoors

If he sticks to that schedule he has another 2 years left. Could end up to 22 but we'll see age has to catch up with him eventually.

[ohiostate124]

I’d love to see Federer and Sock play doubles together.

[iabs]

I didn’t say cringe because I hate Federer, Dominic. Lol calm down man.

I said it’s cringey because it’s obvious that Djokovic doesn’t give a flying fuk and Fed is obviously stepping up for his team/ tourney to save face.

Personality wise I think Federer is a more likeable guy than Djoker who seems to try too hard often times.

With that said, I don’t t care about an exho at all, especially if my favorite player isn’t t even in it.

[Dominik]

I said it’s cringey because it’s obvious that Djokovic doesn’t give a flying fuk and Fed is obviously stepping up for his team/ tourney to save face.

Personality wise I think Federer is a more likeable guy than Djoker who seems to try too hard often times.

With that said, I don’t t care about an exho at all, especially if my favorite player isn’t t even in it.

Sequels are rarely as good as the original. Novak isn't really invested in it while Nadal had a greater appreciation for the historical significance of the occasion and went all in hamming it up with Federer which made it more memorable.

[ohiostate124]

Alright Djokovic. That line about your contribution to the win was hilarious.

[Dominik]

[Dominik]

Next year it will be in Geneva.

Goodbye Sock and Kyrgios. Time to add Nishikori, bring back Shapovalov and maybe add Raonic for the World team. Also bring in Khachanov, Coric, and Tsitsipas.

And of course Fedal 2.0.

[Dominik]

First Djokovic hits him in the back in doubles now it's Big John going in dry with the body serve.