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  1. #1
    Registered User Trickflo's Avatar
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    Question Keto or no Keto for cut & bulk?

    First off I am not posting this in the Keto Section on purpose to help try and avoid Biased opinions, Thinking most people that are super into keto will just say yes do it in the main keto forum area with out looking at the full picture of things, Though I know some of them will migrate over to here.

    My main goal right now is to lose weight and not lose muscle. Cause once i get to 10-12% body fat percentages I want to bulk up and get some size. I am 5'9" tall 200 pounds and about 25% body fat. I plan on eating at a 750 Caloric deficit to lose 1.5 pounds / week. Id like to be around 160-165 pounds before I start bulking. Keep In mind newbie gains I have not started working out yet and basically never have other than 2 weeks my whole life. My first work out is tonight actually.

    I am newly looking into Keto diet never looked at it till today would this be a bad option for what I am wanting? It tells you to eat 30% Protein, 5% Carbs, & 65% fats. My understanding is if you do this to lose weight and go back to eating carbs all your weight comes back??? If this is the case How would you eat all the carbs that you need for energy and gain raw muscle mass? or do you just eat more fats since those replace the carbs to build muscle size?

    My maintenance calories for a day I do both go to the gym & workout are 3050 Calories, subtract 750 for deficit Ill be eating 2,300 calories the days i do both go to work and workout. this comes out to be 172.5g Protein / 29g Carbs / 166g Fats for that particular day.

    I am starting with SL 5x5 style work out cause I am new and never really lifted. I read building strength first will make you increase size faster later, cause when you go for hypertrophy work outs you are able to lift heavier with the new strength levels?


    My Workout is based off SL 5x5 I just added stuff to it. such as additional lifts to increase lats, shoulder width cause I have wide hips and traps mine are small.
    A-Day & B-Day alternate like normal SL 5x5
    C-Day is only Saturdays.

    A-Days:
    Squats 5x5
    Bench Press 5x5
    Barbell Row 5x5

    Dips 3x10
    Skull Crusher 2x8
    Lateral Raises 2x8
    Leg Raises 3x10
    ----------------------------------------

    B-Days:
    Squats 5x5
    Overhead Press 5x5
    Deadlift 1x5

    Chinups 3x10
    Heavy Cable Crunch pull-down 3x12
    Barbell Curl 2x8
    Barbell Shrugs 3x12
    ---------------------------------------

    C-Days:
    HIIT Stationary Cycle - 8 sets of ( 30 seconds 100% effort then 30 seconds at 50% effort full minute = 1 set) do these 8 times back to back no rest
    5 minute Cool down
    Barbell Shrugs 3x12
    Leg Raises 3x10
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  2. #2
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Whatever makes you adhere the best.

    Some people love KETO. Some people hate KETO.
    "When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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  3. #3
    Registered User Trickflo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Whatever makes you adhere the best.

    Some people love KETO. Some people hate KETO.

    So there isn't a negative effect on weight gain after you stop Keto and go back to carbs as long as your caloric intake is in check?
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    How about you actually start exercising? That would help more than agonizing over nutrition.
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    Registered User Trickflo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rhadam View Post
    How about you actually start exercising? That would help more than agonizing over nutrition.
    Pretty sure nutrition is 80% the work...... you can work out all you want and never see results unless your nutrition is on point.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Trickflo View Post
    So there isn't a negative effect on weight gain after you stop Keto and go back to carbs as long as your caloric intake is in check?
    nope. any short-term changes are water related due to changes in glycogen. this applies to starting and stopping KETO.

    energy is energy.
    "When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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  7. #7
    Common sense/moderation. gbullock32's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Trickflo View Post
    Pretty sure nutrition is 80% the work...... you can work out all you want and never see results unless your nutrition is on point.
    Two wrongs do not make a right; ignoring exercise to focus on nutrition is stupid. Work on both at once.

    Seems more like you are trying to give yourself an excuse to not hit the gym.
    Short cuts to success are often paved with lies.
    1/13/16: Massive hernia.
    5/10/16: Finally back to lifting, light but improving.

    Why Teens shouldn't cut/Lack of progress thread- http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=169272763&p=1397509823#post1397509823
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    Verified Aesthetic rhadam's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Trickflo View Post
    Pretty sure nutrition is 80% the work...... you can work out all you want and never see results unless your nutrition is on point.
    And you're currently doing 0% of the work. See how far that gets you.
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  9. #9
    Registered User Trickflo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rhadam View Post
    And you're currently doing 0% of the work. See how far that gets you.
    I'm just now getting started we all start from doing nothing and deciding to do something, My research is preparing me do something & do it the right way first rather than the wrong way. My first gym night is tonight.
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  10. #10
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    I wouldn't - because keto requires a lot more planning - carbs are in everything. Usually people use keto because the types of foods eaten help with adherence on a low calorie diet - this could be a reason why it might stop you gaining weight.

    You will likely get better energy levels in the gym with carbs too (depending on individual tolerance).

    I also disagree with your statement about nutrition being 80%. Good training can tolerate a lot of variation in food intake. However, crap training will always result in early plateau at best - or more likely nothing at all. If in doubt train harder.
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  11. #11
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    Why do you want to keto?

    If you don't have a good reason for it, I would recommend against it. Carbs are useful, provide energy and generally make it easier to build muscle.
    Recommended science based fitness & nutrition information:
    Alan Aragon https://alanaragon.com/
    Brad Schoenfeld http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/
    James Krieger https://weightology.net/
    Jorn Trommelen http://www.nutritiontactics.com/
    Eric Helms & Team3DMJ https://3dmusclejourney.com/
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  12. #12
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    Originally Posted by Trickflo View Post
    I am newly looking into Keto diet never looked at it till today would this be a bad option for what I am wanting? It tells you to eat 30% Protein, 5% Carbs, & 65% fats.
    Keto Diet

    I've been on the Keto Diet for over two years due to a Metabolic Condition. It took some time to get into the diet and figure it out.

    Calorie Restriction

    One of the primary reason it works is that the higher fat intake kills hunger; you consume fewer calories, which lead to weight loss. There are some other benefits to the diet, as well.

    Originally Posted by Trickflo View Post
    I am newly looking into Keto diet never looked at it till today would this be a bad option for what I am wanting? It tells you to eat 30% Protein, 5% Carbs, & 65% fats.
    Macro Percentages

    30% Protein, 5% Carbs, & 65% fats fall into the parameters of the Ketogenic Diet. However, 30% Protein may be too high.

    Dr Jake Wilson, who works with athletes recommends, 20% Protein, 5% Carbohydrates, and 75% Fat. Source: https://www.bodybuilding.com/content...questions.html

    The Issue With Consuming Too Much Protein

    When too much protein is consumed, you body converts it to glucose, via gluconeogenesis. What happen in a situation like that you never get into ketosis you still glucose dependent.

    Research show that to obtain and maintain ketosis, low to moderate protein intake is madatory.

    Lower Protein Requirement On Keto Diet

    On a Keto Diet, ketones preserve protein from being utilized for energy.

    Research determined that on a Keto Diet, Leucine levels remain elevated. Leucine is an amino acid the turn on mTOR (Mammalian Target of Rapamycin); triggers an anabolic effect, muscle building.

    Energy System Friendly Ketogenic Diet Training

    There are three energy system that the body utilized for energy. The two that are the optimal for Ketogenic Diet Training are...

    1) Phos****en Energy System: This system is reliant on ATP. It involves low rep, Strength and Power Training. This system utilize very little glucose (carbohydrate) or Kegones (fat).

    2) Oxidative Energy System: This system is more reliant on fats for fuel. Endurance events that involve low to moderate intensity utilized a greater percentage of fat.

    Unfriendly Ketogenic Energy System

    Glycolytic Energy System: This system is heavily dependent on glucose for fuel. High Carbohydrate Diets are necessary. Sport that involve moderately intensity that last longer than 30 seconds to around 2.5 minutes fall into the Glycolytic Energy System.

    Originally Posted by Trickflo View Post
    My understanding is if you do this to lose weight and go back to eating carbs all your weight comes back??? If this is the case How would you eat all the carbs that you need for energy and gain raw muscle mass? or do you just eat more fats since those replace the carbs to build muscle size?
    Reintroduction To Carbohydrates After Keto

    Research by Dr Jake Wilson determined easing back into a Higher Carbohydrate Diet from a Ketogenic Diet ensured less fat mass gain. Wilson found that slowly ramping up carbohydrates to 100 gram per day for a few days, then 200 gram for a few days and then 300 gram for a few days allowed the body to adjust.

    Water Weight Gain

    Carbohydrate increase water weight gain. That means weight gained from a Low Carbohydrate Diet to High Carbohydrate is in part due to an increase in water water weight.

    Gaining Weight on The Ketogenic Diet

    The predominate factor in gaining or losing weight is calories; eat more you gain, eat less you lose. That means you can lose or gain weight on a Keto Diet, as with any other diet that increases caloric intake.

    Initially, I lost 17 ls on the Keto Diet. I then decided to gain some of the weight back. I did so by increasing my Fat Calorie Intake.

    Originally Posted by Trickflo View Post
    My maintenance calories for a day I do both go to the gym & workout are 3050 Calories, subtract 750 for deficit Ill be eating 2,300 calories the days
    The 20% Rule

    Two researcher, independent of each other, (Dr Layne Norton and Dr John Ivy) found that decreasing calorie intake approximately 20% below maintenance ensure more muscle mass is preserved while more fat mass is lost.

    The same is true for gaining weight. An increase of 20% above maintenance, increases muscle mass while minimizing fat gain.

    Your decrease of 750 kcals is 25%, which is reasonable.

    To Reiterate

    The Ketogenic Diet will work for weight/fat loss. That is true of any calorie restricted diet.

    The issue with the Keto Diet is more demanding. The more demanding/harder you make something for anyone, the less likely they are to maintain it.

    With that said, what I am an advocate is...

    Intermittent Fasting

    You simply skip a meal every once in a while. Nothing to fix.

    And research by Dr Mike T. Nelson has shown you become Metabolically Flexible; you body becomes efficient burning glucose and fat, dependent on the sport/activity.

    Kenny Croxdale
    Last edited by kennycroxdale; 09-04-2018 at 05:02 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Some good information ^ by Kenny, some not so good information.

    * Protein requirement on keto is still 1.6 gram per kg, just like when you eat a diet with more carbs.

    * Never use macro percentages. Instead set protein minimum to 1.6 gram per kg. If you decide to do keto try to keep net carbs below ~30 gram per day.

    * While eating a lower protein diet can increase blood BHB values there's no good evidence that this has any beneficial effects on body composition or other meaningful outcomes.

    * While Intermitting Fasting can be helpful controlling calories while cutting, it has no proven benefits for body composition and it is suboptimal for maximising muscle gain.
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  14. #14
    Registered User Trickflo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kennycroxdale View Post
    Keto Diet

    I've been on the Keto Diet for over two years due to a Metabolic Condition. It took some time to get into the diet and figure it out.

    Calorie Restriction

    One of the primary reason it works is that the higher fat intake kills hunger; you consume fewer calories, which lead to weight loss. There are some other benefits to the diet, as well.



    Macro Percentages

    30% Protein, 5% Carbs, & 65% fats fall into the parameters of the Ketogenic Diet. However, 30% Protein may be too high.

    Dr Jake Wilson, who works with athletes recommends, 20% Protein, 5% Carbohydrates, and 75% Fat. Source:

    The Issue With Consuming Too Much Protein

    When too much protein is consumed, you body converts it to glucose, via gluconeogenesis. What happen in a situation like that you never get into ketosis you still glucose dependent.

    Research show that to obtain and maintain ketosis, low to moderate protein intake is madatory.

    Lower Protein Requirement On Keto Diet

    On a Keto Diet, ketones preserve protein from being utilized for energy.

    Research determined that on a Keto Diet, Leucine levels remain elevated. Leucine is an amino acid the turn on mTOR (Mammalian Target of Rapamycin); triggers an anabolic effect, muscle building.

    Energy System Friendly Ketogenic Diet Training

    There are three energy system that the body utilized for energy. The two that are the optimal for Ketogenic Diet Training are...

    1) Phos****en Energy System: This system is reliant on ATP. It involves low rep, Strength and Power Training. This system utilize very little glucose (carbohydrate) or Kegones (fat).

    2) Oxidative Energy System: This system is more reliant on fats for fuel. Endurance events that involve low to moderate intensity utilized a greater percentage of fat.

    Unfriendly Ketogenic Energy System

    Glycolytic Energy System: This system is heavily dependent on glucose for fuel. High Carbohydrate Diets are necessary. Sport that involve moderately intensity that last longer than 30 seconds to around 2.5 minutes fall into the Glycolytic Energy System.



    Reintroduction To Carbohydrates After Keto

    Research by Dr Jake Wilson determined easing back into a Higher Carbohydrate Diet from a Ketogenic Diet ensured less fat mass gain. Wilson found that slowly ramping up carbohydrates to 100 gram per day for a few days, then 200 gram for a few days and then 300 gram for a few days allowed the body to adjust.

    Water Weight Gain

    Carbohydrate increase water weight gain. That means weight gained from a Low Carbohydrate Diet to High Carbohydrate is in part due to an increase in water water weight.

    Gaining Weight on The Ketogenic Diet

    The predominate factor in gaining or losing weight is calories; eat more you gain, eat less you lose. That means you can lose or gain weight on a Keto Diet, as with any other diet that increases caloric intake.

    Initially, I lost 17 ls on the Keto Diet. I then decided to gain some of the weight back. I did so by increasing my Fat Calorie Intake.



    The 20% Rule

    Two researcher, independent of each other, (Dr Layne Norton and Dr John Ivy) found that decreasing calorie intake approximately 20% below maintenance ensure more muscle mass is preserved while more fat mass is lost.

    The same is true for gaining weight. An increase of 20% above maintenance, increases muscle mass while minimizing fat gain.

    Your decrease of 750 kcals is 25%, which is reasonable.

    To Reiterate

    The Ketogenic Diet will work for weight/fat loss. That is true of any calorie restricted diet.

    The issue with the Keto Diet is more demanding. The more demanding/harder you make something for anyone, the less likely they are to maintain it.

    With that said, what I am an advocate is...

    Intermittent Fasting

    You simply skip a meal every once in a while. Nothing to fix.

    And research by Dr Mike T. Nelson has shown you become Metabolically Flexible; you body becomes efficient burning glucose and fat, dependent on the sport/activity.

    Kenny Croxdale

    Wow a lot of good info thanks for the thorough reply. I was doing more research, I had a gout flare up about 3 months ago in my big toe this was soo damn painful, it was the first time it ever happened, I think it was cause i ate a 1lb ribeye 3 days in a row for dinner. i tried finding more info and was thinking it was the fats in them steaks that did it? wouldn't a Keto diet cause gout to flare up? not sure if anyone knows anything about gout? I am new to it myself never had it before it lasted a week before it would go away my whole foot was swelled up.
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    Originally Posted by Trickflo View Post
    Wow a lot of good info thanks for the thorough reply. I was doing more research, I had a gout flare up about 3 months ago in my big toe this was soo damn painful, it was the first time it ever happened, I think it was cause i ate a 1lb ribeye 3 days in a row for dinner. i tried finding more info and was thinking it was the fats in them steaks that did it? wouldn't a Keto diet cause gout to flare up? not sure if anyone knows anything about gout? I am new to it myself never had it before it lasted a week before it would go away my whole foot was swelled up.
    Gout is not my area. So, I can't provide with anything more.

    On another note, a good article on Training on the Keto Diet is...

    Mythbusting: Training On a Keto Diet
    https://www.ruled.me/mythbusting-training-on-keto-diet/

    This provide more information the Energy Systems.

    Overall, a very good article. I have some minor differences with some of the training information.

    Kenny Croxdale
    Last edited by kennycroxdale; 09-05-2018 at 04:54 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Trickflo View Post
    Wow a lot of good info thanks for the thorough reply. I was doing more research, I had a gout flare up about 3 months ago in my big toe this was soo damn painful, it was the first time it ever happened, I think it was cause i ate a 1lb ribeye 3 days in a row for dinner. i tried finding more info and was thinking it was the fats in them steaks that did it? wouldn't a Keto diet cause gout to flare up? not sure if anyone knows anything about gout? I am new to it myself never had it before it lasted a week before it would go away my whole foot was swelled up.
    Read this: https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...t/art-20048524

    Consider going to your doctor and getting your uric acid level checked to see if it is a bit high. Medications can be given for that. Whether the medication would help prevent another gout flare from high dietary intake of foods not ideal for gout, I'm not sure but it could be worth a try.
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