Evidence is mounting that citrulline malate is ineffective as an ergogenic supplement

[poison]

I love CM, It's a staple of mine and often take way too much
But even the best of us can be prone to the placebo. I'll let further studies come out disproving CM before throwing it out of my stack.

However, what you said is exactly what people used to (or still in some case) say about BCAA, Arginine, CEE, Glutamine and other worthless supps.

Here's the thing: I never thought BCAA, Glutamine, CEE, etc were worthwhile (I do still think arginine increases pumps, not performance). CM has been effective since day one when SAN release Ox, then J-Rod/MAN released Body Octane. It's been 10 plus years now, thousands of people enjoy the effects, and some studies back it up, but one negative study is released and it's all over? Nah. I'll keep using it too.

[lucia316]

Here's the thing: I never thought BCAA, Glutamine, CEE, etc were worthwhile (I do still think arginine increases pumps, not performance). CM has been effective since day one when SAN release Ox, then J-Rod/MAN released Body Octane. It's been 10 plus years now, thousands of people enjoy the effects, and some studies back it up, but one negative study is released and it's all over? Nah. I'll keep using it too.

Don't disagree with the sentiment, as it's just one study. I think the key difference is that things like BCAAs, CEE, glutamine were pushed via marketing on bastardized or poor science in the first place. At this point, for me at least, it's a wait and see what happens as more confirmation contradiction.

The results just showed that there difference in reps or peak forces. Muscle soreness stuff is a bit rougher as: a) it's often subjective (VAS use is a scale of no pain to unbearable pain with nothing in between vs GRS which has defined levels in between. This study used VAS, but it's still based on the subjectivity of the individual and their pain threshold or tolerance); but b) "...a cause and effect relationship between CM supplementation and exercise performance/recovery has yet to be established, positive findings require corroboration, while a number of recent investigations have failed to demonstrate efficacy of CM."

I don't think that's the primary reason people are using, but these results seem to show this to be the case. Making it worse? Who knows at this point.

The other challenge here is that these subjects were smaller and untrained. They also had no diet control thus differences in macros and micros could attribute to differences in DOMS beyond subjectivity.

Bottom line, I don't think this is a study that says, let's bail on something that to this point has shown decent benefit, but we should take note to see what happens down the road with future studies. Perhaps this is just an aberration.

[TheFugitive]

Here's the thing: I never thought BCAA, Glutamine, CEE, etc were worthwhile (I do still think arginine increases pumps, not performance). CM has been effective since day one when SAN release Ox, then J-Rod/MAN released Body Octane. It's been 10 plus years now, thousands of people enjoy the effects, and some studies back it up, but one negative study is released and it's all over? Nah. I'll keep using it too.

This is called stirring the pot. Lets use CEE as an example: It's creatine with an ester attached, it's still CREATINE, and yes it works, but the studies confirmed it to be inferior when compared to CM. I highly doubt any of us would notice a difference in the two forms other than some possible GI issues with CM

Sometimes studies cause more confusion than good

[lucia316]

This is called stirring the pot. Lets use CEE as an example: It's creatine with an ester attached, it's still CREATINE, and yes it works, but the studies confirmed it to be inferior when compared to CM. I highly doubt any of us would notice a difference in the two forms other than some possible GI issues with CM

Sometimes studies cause more confusion than good

Wow. I'm blown away in a good way right now.

While you're right, I think the argument here is not that CEE vs CM is about overall effectiveness differences, but cost differences for CEE vs CM if there is no benefit to paying more. As you said, creatine is creatine. Why overpay for one that is technically inferior? And if GI issues are at play, why not look to HCL?

So to poison's point he never found CEE worthwhile because it's not as effective as CM. This case is slightly different in that we're making a comparison of creatines versus does taking ingredient A, B or C have actual value based on what science tells us. In the two cases he noted, they do not.

[TheFugitive]

Wow. I'm blown away in a good way right now.

While you're right, I think the argument here is not that CEE vs CM is about overall effectiveness differences, but cost differences for CEE vs CM if there is no benefit to paying more. As you said, creatine is creatine. Why overpay for one that is technically inferior? And if GI issues are at play, why not look to HCL?

So to poison's point he never found CEE worthwhile because it's not as effective as CM. This case is slightly different in that we're making a comparison of creatines versus does taking ingredient A, B or C have actual value based on what science tells us. In the two cases he noted, they do not.

Look at it this way, the medical industry can't even guarantee results with the majority of medications that have been studied and tested for years

Also, is it just me or does motive seem to play a large role with most studies in this industry?

[stevenjamesvick]

Do you think someone would do that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?

[lucia316]

Look at it this way, the medical industry can't even guarantee results with the majority of medications that have been studied and tested for years

Okay, whew, I thought we were in the Twilight Zone or something because this is not even close to the same thing since drugs go through insane oversight, scrutiny and approval processes where supplements don't have that at all and only need to bear the statement, "These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease," per Title 21, CFR 101.93.

To make this comparison is ridiculous. Back to normal.

Also, is it just me or does motive seem to play a large role with most studies in this industry?

Is that kinda like someone that only will look at science when it confirms their bias, but any other study that does not confirm said bias is, "Blah, blah, blah," and the FEELZ are all that matters?

[TheFugitive]

Okay, whew, I thought we were in the Twilight Zone or something because this is not even close to the same thing since drugs go through insane oversight, scrutiny and approval processes where supplements don't have that at all and only need to bear the statement, "These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease," per Title 21, CFR 101.93.

To make this comparison is ridiculous. Back to normal.




Is that kinda like someone that only will look at science when it confirms their bias, but any other study that does not confirm said bias is, "Blah, blah, blah," and the FEELZ are all that matters?

You continue to make yourself look greener with each post, congrats man

[lucia316]

You continue to make yourself look greener with each post, congrats man

Yes, that's what everyone is thinking...keep on trollin brah.

[DinoT1985]

From what I've learned over the years seeing COAs, most citrulline malate is unbonded citrulline and malic acid anyway. Are there any supplements that truly use a bonded ingredient and is that even possible? The amount of manufacturers I know that claim it to not be possible is outstanding, but I recall Mike saying Primaforce was switched to the bonded version and that's one guy I trust.

[eatyourspinach]

From what I've learned over the years seeing COAs, most citrulline malate is unbonded citrulline and malic acid anyway. Are there any supplements that truly use a bonded ingredient and is that even possible? The amount of manufacturers I know that claim it to not be possible is outstanding, but I recall Mike saying Primaforce was switched to the bonded version and that's one guy I trust.

there isn't much use for the malic acid is there? so might as well just use stand alone citrulline

[powercage]

From what I've learned over the years seeing COAs, most citrulline malate is unbonded citrulline and malic acid anyway. Are there any supplements that truly use a bonded ingredient and is that even possible? The amount of manufacturers I know that claim it to not be possible is outstanding, but I recall Mike saying Primaforce was switched to the bonded version and that's one guy I trust.

Makes no difference. Bonded cit mal dissociates immediately in water.

People claiming they are selling you bonded cit mal are scamming you by suggesting it's superior (it's the exact same thing when you ingest it). Unless all you care about is what is in a sealed container...


People need to chill on cit mal and learn chemistry

[VaughnTrue]

Makes no difference. Bonded cit mal dissociates immediately in water.

People claiming they are selling you bonded cit mal are scamming you by suggesting it's superior (it's the exact same thing when you ingest it). Unless all you care about is what is in a sealed container...


People need to chill on cit mal and learn chemistry

I have always been a large proponent for pure citrulline. there is absolutely zero reason why cit malate would somehow be "better"

[powercage]

I have always been a large proponent for pure citrulline. there is absolutely zero reason why cit malate would somehow be "better"

really depends on if you believe in the benefits of malic acid at those doses.

Cit mal is used because thats what the initial positive studies used. Shouldnt matter given equated cit content

[OT2000]

There is no scientific evidence on supplemental Malic Acid. I don’t personally believe using it will replenish levels.

[powercage]

There is no scientific evidence on supplemental Malic Acid. I don’t personally believe using it will replenish levels.

You shut your mouth, it works for dry mouth

[funnyrepublican]

no wonder

[poison]

I have always been a large proponent for pure citrulline. there is absolutely zero reason why cit malate would somehow be "better"

Bingo.

[DinoT1985]

Makes no difference. Bonded cit mal dissociates immediately in water.

People claiming they are selling you bonded cit mal are scamming you by suggesting it's superior (it's the exact same thing when you ingest it). Unless all you care about is what is in a sealed container...


People need to chill on cit mal and learn chemistry

Not the point I'm getting at. If you label citrulline malate on the container it should be bonded, regardless of whether it dissociates.

[powercage]

Not the point I'm getting at. If you label citrulline malate on the container it should be bonded, regardless of whether it dissociates.

That is fair. I do agree it is misbranding, and I am not familiar with the exact labeling laws surrounding it.

My problem is that those Ive seen pushing the bonded form have been falsely suggesting it is somehow different or superior to the user. It is not.

[VaughnTrue]

That is fair. I do agree it is misbranding, and I am not familiar with the exact labeling laws surrounding it.

My problem is that those Ive seen pushing the bonded form have been falsely suggesting it is somehow different or superior to the user. It is not.

it's absolutely deception. regardless of the fact that it may separate immediately upon hitting water, the fact remains that the acceptable labeling of this would be "L-Citrullin, Malic Acid" as that's whats being reflected on manufacturers build sheets.

If someone is actually using bonded material, more power to them, but I'd be willing to bet we'd see few companies who can provide actual COAs instead of "of course we use bonded material"

[OT2000]

I’ll bet that no one produces bonded CM anymore

[powercage]

I’ll bet that no one produces bonded CM anymore

This

[DASBUNKER]

Life's too short to use CM, Straight Citrulline or bust.

Regarding this, I'm gonna go with my n=1 research and positive data, one possibly irrelevant study and a few hypothetical rumors aint chit.

[eatyourspinach]

Life's too short to use CM, Straight Citrulline or bust.

Regarding this, I'm gonna go with my n=1 research and positive data, one possibly irrelevant study and a few hypothetical rumors aint chit.

shhh TheFugitive might hear you

[ILPump]

Are you guys bored or just this gullible?

[2020Wellness]

But that sheet tastes soooo good! I'd use it just for adding some sour to any other flavored drink.

[danielmoo]

Pure L-citrulline is the ticket

[Kon_Rock]

Pure L-citrulline is the ticket

^^^ 100%

[Kon_Rock]

Here's Mark Glazier (Nutrabio Founder/CEO) comments on this matter recently.

https://www.bodybuilding.com/content...upplement.html

Mark comments at the end of this article.

He has also wrote a very detailed response to this topic last week.