Should I cut or lean bulk? (PICS)

[Wheeeeee]

First post in this forum, so I'm not sure whether the threat is in the right place.

So I've actually been working out for some time, 4 years to be exact (4 - 5 times / week). But I've never really committed to it in terms of my diet plan, usually just giving a lot of excuses for it.

High Calorie Restriction
Long story short, I decided to finally commit a few weeks back, and decided to get a toned muscular body with six pack abs. I started the first few weeks by heavy calorie restriction. I'm talking starchy carbs (oatmeals) in the morning, and for the rest of the day, I'll only have chicken breast and fibrous carbs (cucumbers, broc****s, etc.), whilst doing a 5 day split workout. I basically only consume around 1000 - 1500 calories per day.

Results: Initially, I found that I lost fat rapidly. However, I found that my muscles that were more visible now are starting to fade away after week 5. Upon reading online for more, I believe that it was caused by a high calorie restriction, and reduced my muscle mass.

So after finding this, I've decided to increase my calorie intake. Currently, I'm using a cutting calorie deficit of around 500 calories, which leads me to approximately 1900 - 2100 calories /day.

Question starts here
My current problem starts here. As seen in the pics, I guesstimate that i'm currently at 15% bf (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm at 165 lbs and 5 foot 11 inches.

Currently, I'm confused whether I should cut or lean bulk first. Based on some online sources, they suggest to cut to 10-12% bf then proceed with lean bulk. However, I'm not sure whether I have "enough" muscles after the cut. So should i cut of bulk first and why?

So it'll be great if anyone can give me your opinions on the matter. Thanks.

[xsquid99]

Just looking at your pics I would say you're not carrying enough muscle at 5'11" 165. You would probably have to get down to 140 to show anything at all, which is too light for your height.

4 years of lifting, just curious what do your major lifts look like (Bench, Squat, DL, OHP)?

[Wheeeeee]

Just looking at your pics I would say you're not carrying enough muscle at 5'11" 165. You would probably have to get down to 140 to show anything at all, which is too light for your height.

4 years of lifting, just curious what do your major lifts look like (Bench, Squat, DL, OHP)?

Yea, that was what I was thinking. During the 1st year, my goal was actually weight loss due to my squishy look, which thinking back is quite stupid. I dropped from 194 to 158 lbs. Like i said, my diet was totally not in check during those 4 years so I'm not surprised that I don't have enough muscles. My major lifts would include what you said, but also some other isolation exercises after the compound exercises.

So in your opinion, lean bulk?

[Myfitfriend]

I vote clean bulk from where you are now. Your not carrying a huge amount of muscle mass so cutting down further wouldn’t reveal much (just make you look skinny).

Good clean diet and calories surplus and solid workout plan going forward will get you where you want

[Wheeeeee]

I vote clean bulk from where you are now. Your not carrying a huge amount of muscle mass so cutting down further wouldn’t reveal much (just make you look skinny).

Good clean diet and calories surplus and solid workout plan going forward will get you where you want

I was thinking about cutting to 10% bf because I was afraid of high insulin insensitivity with my current body fat %. Any opinion on that?

[xsquid99]

Yea, that was what I was thinking. During the 1st year, my goal was actually weight loss due to my squishy look, which thinking back is quite stupid. I dropped from 194 to 158 lbs. Like i said, my diet was totally not in check during those 4 years so I'm not surprised that I don't have enough muscles. My major lifts would include what you said, but also some other isolation exercises after the compound exercises.

So in your opinion, lean bulk?

When I said what do your lifts look like I meant how much are you lifting for your major compounds? The reason I ask is that your lack of muscle mass could be a two-fold issue of bad programming and poor nutrition.

You could really go either way and bulk from where you are now or shed 10-15 lbs and then start. If you're comfortable adding some fat then go ahead and start lean bulking now, if not then you may want to lose a little first.

[Wheeeeee]

When I said what do your lifts look like I meant how much are you lifting for your major compounds? The reason I ask is that your lack of muscle mass could be a two-fold issue of bad programming and poor nutrition.

You could really go either way and bulk from where you are now or shed 10-15 lbs and then start. If you're comfortable adding some fat then go ahead and start lean bulking now, if not then you may want to lose a little first.

Thanks for your reply. If you mean weights, i usually DL and squat around 110 - 120 lbs, bench with 80-90 lbs (these numbers are coupled with low rep ranges of ~ 5 reps), db ohp with around 60 lbs total.

I'm not afraid of looking skinny for a while before I start lean bulking.

However, if i cut first, what goal do you advise I go for, 10% ? 12%? in your opinion. Also, based on your experience, how long will the cut take usually?

If i do lean bulk first, will insulin sensitivity be a major problem?

I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons between this two options for the final choice.

[sunsean]

Thanks for your reply. If you mean weights, i usually DL and squat around 110 - 120 lbs, bench with 80-90 lbs (these numbers are coupled with low rep ranges of ~ 5 reps), db ohp with around 60 lbs total.

I'm not afraid of looking skinny for a while before I start lean bulking.

However, if i cut first, what goal do you advise I go for, 10% ? 12%? in your opinion. Also, based on your experience, how long will the cut take usually?

If i do lean bulk first, will insulin sensitivity be a major problem?

I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons between this two options for the final choice.

You need to get past your obsession with bulking and cutting - you are not ready for that yet...after seeing your lifts (the pounds you are lifting) you need to focus on getting stronger and building some muscle. IMO you aren't so fat that you need to focus on cutting fat at the expense of muscle growth...after 4 years of lifting and only benching 80-90 for 5 reps, something isn't working. You already said your diet wasn't in check, good to acknowledge that...what routine are you doing? If not already on an established routine, my advice would be to pick one (Fierce 5 is good) - and follow the plan, progressive overload etc, eat enough, and get stronger. You've got a long way to go before you have enough muscle to show off by cutting. At 5'11, you should be lifting at least DOUBLE what you currently are, if not more. I'm 5'9 and I can lift more than double all your weights, and I'm not a very big guy in the bodybuilding world.

[xsquid99]

You need to get past your obsession with bulking and cutting - you are not ready for that yet...after seeing your lifts (the pounds you are lifting) you need to focus on getting stronger and building some muscle. IMO you aren't so fat that you need to focus on cutting fat at the expense of muscle growth...after 4 years of lifting and only benching 80-90 for 5 reps, something isn't working. You already said your diet wasn't in check, good to acknowledge that...what routine are you doing? If not already on an established routine, my advice would be to pick one (Fierce 5 is good) - and follow the plan, progressive overload etc, eat enough, and get stronger. You've got a long way to go before you have enough muscle to show off by cutting. At 5'11, you should be lifting at least DOUBLE what you currently are, if not more. I'm 5'9 and I can lift more than double all your weights, and I'm not a very big guy in the bodybuilding world.

+1 to all of this... Thus was the reason I asked about your lifts, because you both look and lift like someone that only has a few months experience, not years.

You need to learn how to lift weights so you can build some actual muscle. This means getting on a proven, established program (Stronglifts 5x5, Vikings Bare Bones, All Pro, Fierce 5, Starting Strength, etc) while focusing on proper form and progressive overload and ensuring you're getting enough protein in your diet.

[Wheeeeee]

You need to get past your obsession with bulking and cutting - you are not ready for that yet...after seeing your lifts (the pounds you are lifting) you need to focus on getting stronger and building some muscle. IMO you aren't so fat that you need to focus on cutting fat at the expense of muscle growth...after 4 years of lifting and only benching 80-90 for 5 reps, something isn't working. You already said your diet wasn't in check, good to acknowledge that...what routine are you doing? If not already on an established routine, my advice would be to pick one (Fierce 5 is good) - and follow the plan, progressive overload etc, eat enough, and get stronger. You've got a long way to go before you have enough muscle to show off by cutting. At 5'11, you should be lifting at least DOUBLE what you currently are, if not more. I'm 5'9 and I can lift more than double all your weights, and I'm not a very big guy in the bodybuilding world.

Sorry, there was a typo, i meant to write 8 reps, but you're right, i should stop the obsessions. I'm currentlly using Jamie Eason's workout plan with a few modifications for a better progressive overload. I'll look into Fierce 5 and some other programs suggested by xquid99.

[Wheeeeee]

+1 to all of this... Thus was the reason I asked about your lifts, because you both look and lift like someone that only has a few months experience, not years.

You need to learn how to lift weights so you can build some actual muscle. This means getting on a proven, established program (Stronglifts 5x5, Vikings Bare Bones, All Pro, Fierce 5, Starting Strength, etc) while focusing on proper form and progressive overload and ensuring you're getting enough protein in your diet.

I agree that i feel like i've only been working out for months. This is most probably due to my lack of diet control during all these years, and my initial goal of just weight loss (not even fat loss). I only started the goal of muscle gain seriously during this past few months.

So I guess what I'm gonna take here is I should start from the basics, start strong, get strong and build muscles first.

[xsquid99]

I agree that i feel like i've only been working out for months. This is most probably due to my lack of diet control during all these years, and my initial goal of just weight loss (not even fat loss). I only started the goal of muscle gain seriously during this past few months.

So I guess what I'm gonna take here is I should start from the basics, start strong, get strong and build muscles first.

Now you're talking, start from Square 1.

[Wheeeeee]

Now you're talking, start from Square 1.

On a side note, any suggestions for % calorie surplus during the strength training?

[sunsean]

On a side note, any suggestions for % calorie surplus during the strength training?

Good on you! Start with the basics, no need to complicate things. Lift progressively heavier weights, eat enough, rest/sleep enough, and that's about it.

Regarding calorie surplus, you want to keep it reasonable to avoid excess fat gain. Do you have any idea what your TDEE is (the amount you need to maintain current weight)? Add 200-300 calories to that...since you're essentially a "beginner" in terms of where your lifts are at, you will probably get stronger for a while without a huge surplus so you don't have to go overboard. Make sure you get at least .82g protein and .4g fat per lb of bodyweight...as a minimum.

The important thing is to make sure you are lifting MORE WEIGHT over time, that is how you get stronger. Lifting 80lb week after week won't work for long, you need to go from 80>85>90>95 etc. over time...that's what causes you to get stronger and grow muscle (along with nutrition of course).

[tblodg15]

Another vote to work on building some muscle for a while before worrying about cutting body fat.

[daudi81]

4 years?? Were you lifting with a real program that whole time or just doing random stuff? (Serious question).

Find a good novice program like Fierce 5. Follow the program EXACTLY as outlined.

Read the nutrition stickies. You definitely need to be eating more.

Eat to grow and progress on your lifts. Be consistent and patient. You should be able to at least double all your lifts fairly quickly if you stick with it, and gain some mass to boot.

[Wheeeeee]

Good on you! Start with the basics, no need to complicate things. Lift progressively heavier weights, eat enough, rest/sleep enough, and that's about it.

Regarding calorie surplus, you want to keep it reasonable to avoid excess fat gain. Do you have any idea what your TDEE is (the amount you need to maintain current weight)? Add 200-300 calories to that...since you're essentially a "beginner" in terms of where your lifts are at, you will probably get stronger for a while without a huge surplus so you don't have to go overboard. Make sure you get at least .82g protein and .4g fat per lb of bodyweight...as a minimum.

The important thing is to make sure you are lifting MORE WEIGHT over time, that is how you get stronger. Lifting 80lb week after week won't work for long, you need to go from 80>85>90>95 etc. over time...that's what causes you to get stronger and grow muscle (along with nutrition of course).

Any advices to how strong I should be for my height and goal?

4 years?? Were you lifting with a real program that whole time or just doing random stuff? (Serious question).

Well, I followed jamie eason's workout. But like i said, i believe my biggest reasons for failure was lack of nutrition control, and pretty undefined goals. I also never strived to lift heavier.

[Tommy W.]

You have nothing to keep cutting down to. Get on a proven structured program and eat in a slight calorie surplus

[sunsean]

Any advices to how strong I should be for my height and goal?.

Who knows what your genetic limit is, but for now just know that you can easily double your lifts and still have more to go after that.

[JyotiPR]

Cut first