Failure vs Intensity... Is training to failure beneficial?

[tkdnj]

If you want genuine empirical evidence of what failure does, pick an exercise that you do twice a week and try and PR on it, and fail, twice that week. E.g. try and set a new 1RM on bench twice in the same week.

The following week and potentially even the week after that, will see a marked loss in performance on that exercise.

good point

[tkdnj]

This is the basis of Mike Mentzer's heavy duty training taking just a couple of sets(not including warm ups) to absolute failure via heavy weight and forced reps until you are absolutely spent.
It works better for some than others.
A higher chance of injury and the need for a training partner to spot and push you through forced reps.
Most exercises are done on machines(Mentzer liked nautilus machines).
The bottom line is everything works for awhile but eventually the body adapts or in this case could break down with an injury.
Training with intensity doesn't mean you have to go extremely heavy but you must be able to have extreme focus on the working muscle during your sets.
And as mentioned there are many ways to increase that intensity,super sets,drop sets,hold reps,constant tension reps,to name a few.
This style or technique would be much safer in the long run IMO and still produce hypertrophy.

let's say you were doing a drop set; would you drop (lessen) the weight at the point of not being able to do another rep with good form? Or before that?

[bigtallox]

Progression is the engine that drives growth, not 'failure.' Train hard to lift more weight and/or more reps with good form over time, and you will make reasonably consistent gains.

He's always right. Seriously.


My feeling is that if you like to train to failure... it's all the work that you do up to actually failing that's important anyway. If you don't train to failure, you can still do all that work but just not the failure part. Seems to me if you're lifting, you want to teach your body to lift, not fail the lift, and thus failure should be avoided. Even though it may make a cool video to listen to hard music, yell and scream while you don't move the bar anywhere, but failure can cause injury. But then again, most people don't "lift to lift", I don't anymore. I lift to do better in long drive... lifting to failure certainly doesn't help that either. those are my thoughts right now. I'm sure in the past I probably had different feelings based on my goals at the time. See things are never black and white, truth has context.

[induced_drag]

I have worked out alone for the past 8 years. That means on any big compound exercise, I have never trained to failure. I know myself well enough though that I often go to where I have only one good rep last (where I dont have to grind it).


On iso, from time to time, I will play with really pushing myself....but this is very rare.

So take it for what it is worth, I have made decent progress without ever pushing towards true "failure"

[bigtallox]

I have worked out alone for the past 8 years. That means on any big compound exercise, I have never trained to failure. I know myself well enough though that I often go to where I have only one good rep last (where I dont have to grind it).


On iso, from time to time, I will play with really pushing myself....but this is very rare.

So take it for what it is worth, I have made decent progress without ever pushing towards true "failure"

More support for not failing.

Actually when I was competing in strongman, for the most part failed lifts were saved for lifting in competitions. In training the goal was never for failure, well not very often. Only when ego videos were wanted for some reason, but the lift resulted in failure.

[tkdnj]

Thanks all! All interesting and useful perspectives, among other things this is what makes this board great

[tkdnj]

I have worked out alone for the past 8 years. That means on any big compound exercise, I have never trained to failure. I know myself well enough though that I often go to where I have only one good rep last (where I dont have to grind it).


On iso, from time to time, I will play with really pushing myself....but this is very rare.

So take it for what it is worth, I have made decent progress without ever pushing towards true "failure"

Very interesting, especially considering your size and strength

[tkdnj]

He's always right. Seriously.


My feeling is that if you like to train to failure... it's all the work that you do up to actually failing that's important anyway. If you don't train to failure, you can still do all that work but just not the failure part. Seems to me if you're lifting, you want to teach your body to lift, not fail the lift, and thus failure should be avoided. Even though it may make a cool video to listen to hard music, yell and scream while you don't move the bar anywhere, but failure can cause injury. But then again, most people don't "lift to lift", I don't anymore. I lift to do better in long drive... lifting to failure certainly doesn't help that either. those are my thoughts right now. I'm sure in the past I probably had different feelings based on my goals at the time. See things are never black and white, truth has context.

great points

[MCDougalthe3rd]

I used to think you had to train to failure each set but now I think it's better not to because my workouts last longer and seem more productive and recovery is better I feel . I also don't plan how many reps I'm going to do but I go on feel for each set . It's not about numbers imo and some days I feel able to perform better than other days , so I always try to push as far as my body wants to and then rest (between sets) . But often I increase the weight for each set I do and then go close to failure on the heaviest sets but since I'm only doing a few reps on these sets it's pretty easy to judge . Like if you can only push out 3 reps of a certain weight it becomes pretty clear that the 4th would be a bad idea I mostly train strength only tho so idk about the science of hypertrophy . I just assume lifting (heavy) weights a lot will make me stronger So I prefer to do more sets by leaving a rep or 2 in the tank . I think it works for me at the beginner/intermediate level

[tanksoldier]

Good points. The difference between lifting and lifting to failure is, theoretically, one rep.

[tblodg15]

I also appreciate all the great points and examples given by everyone. Great discussion!