Frequency over volume for over 50 natural bodybuilders - Your thoughts?

[tkdnj]

I have been reading and hearing a lot about frequency being king when it comes to natural bodybuilders. Basically the reasoning is that for NATURAL bodybuilders, protein muscle synthesis stops at about 48 hours (generally speaking of course). Therefor, to MAXIMIZE results, it makes sense to trigger muscle protein synthesis as often as possible (every 48 hours), as long as you can recover by the next time you work that muscle (which can be longer for senior lifters). That said, the prevailing thought process is if you intend to work a muscle every 48 hours, the volume per muscle per workout should decrease (as compared to the volume when working a muscle once a week, or every 4th or 5th day, etc...), but at the end of the day the WEEKLY volume per muscle should be about the same.

I have been doing variations of "Push / Pull / Legs" for a while, hitting each muscle every 4th or 5th day. The results are fine, but in the spirit of MAXIMIZING results, I am going to experiment with higher frequency / less volume. Hitting a muscle every two days (48 hour rest) will be too much for my repaired shoulder, so I am about to embark on the following routine, which has me hitting each muscle every 3 days, and was looking for your feedback. Brief background: 53 years old, training many years, goal is hypertrophy with an eye on a natural over 50 show in March.

Note: all sets represent working sets, going to failure (failure defined here as I can't do another rep with good form); and in the rep range of 7-15

Day 1: Upper body (note I will change up exercises every 6-8 weeks, but my repaired shoulder puts some limitations on my exercise options)
Chest (8 total sets): Decline dumbbells - 4 sets; Standing Cable Incline Flyes: 4 sets
Shoulders (6 total sets): Dumbbell Presses: 3 sets; Side Laterals: 3 sets
Triceps (4 total sets): Reverse Pull Downs: 4 sets
Back (8 total sets): Front Pull Downs: 4 sets; Dumbbell Rows: 4 sets
Biceps (3 total sets): Curls: 3 sets

Day 2: Legs (and traps); again, my shoulder surgery prohibits me from doing barbell squats, but I mix in other exercises like Bulgarian split squats, lunges, etc... in place of leg press and hack squats, but just to give you an idea of volume:
Legs (12 total sets): Leg Press: 3 sets; Hack Squat: 3 sets; Leg Extensions: 3 sets; Leg Curls: 3 sets
Calves: (5 total sets): Sitting Calf Raises (5 sets)
Traps (3 total sets): Dumbbell Shrugs: 3 sets

Day 3: Off

REPEAT

Thanks for your feedback!

[grubman]

Well, I won't be over 50 for 4 months...but I think, ultimately, it's still going to come down to balancing your frequency, volume, and intensity on an individual basis.

I know after 3 years on a full body (high frequency, low volume, high intensity), I couldn't increase my intensity anymore (for improvement), I couldn't increase frequency anymore (I was working out every other day), so the only thing to do was increase volume...and the only way to do this AND have enough energy to get through my workout, was to switch to a Push/Pull, which allowed me to not only add more volume, but to also start working on progressive weight resistance again (more exercises and more sets). Recently, that has stopped working, so a little over a month ago, I switched to a Push/Pull/Legs (6 day a week) which allows me to increase volume AND work on the progressive resistance of increasing intensity again (with weights, rest times, and "advanced" techniques)...and just to put this in perspective, my workouts are still about 45 minutes long.

When I feel I've maxed this out (maybe a year or two), I'll probably go back to a full body and start the long cycle again...for as long as I can.

I think your program will work great, especially if it's a change...but I don't think there is one "final destination" if you want continued progress.

Edit: What show in March, or at least the location? I've been toying around with over 50 in Wisconsin.

[tkdnj]

Hey Grubman- thanks for the perspectives! I agree with you, it's basically balancing frequency / volume / intensity as you switch programs. What kind of volume are you doing with your Push / Pull / legs? What about when you did full body?

The natural show I am targeting is the NGA Natural Tri-State Championship in NJ.

Thanks again!

[ElrondHubbard]

I have been reading and hearing a lot about frequency being king when it comes to natural bodybuilders. Basically the reasoning is that for NATURAL bodybuilders, protein muscle synthesis stops at about 48 hours (generally speaking of course). Therefor, to MAXIMIZE results, it makes sense to trigger muscle protein synthesis as often as possible (every 48 hours), as long as you can recover by the next time you work that muscle (which can be longer for senior lifters). That said, the prevailing thought process is if you intend to work a muscle every 48 hours, the volume per muscle per workout should decrease (as compared to the volume when working a muscle once a week, or every 4th or 5th day, etc...), but at the end of the day the WEEKLY volume per muscle should be about the same.

I have been doing variations of "Push / Pull / Legs" for a while, hitting each muscle every 4th or 5th day. The results are fine, but in the spirit of MAXIMIZING results, I am going to experiment with higher frequency / less volume. Hitting a muscle every two days (48 hour rest) will be too much for my repaired shoulder, so I am about to embark on the following routine, which has me hitting each muscle every 3 days, and was looking for your feedback. Brief background: 53 years old, training many years, goal is hypertrophy with an eye on a natural over 50 show in March.

Note: all sets represent working sets, going to failure (failure defined here as I can't do another rep with good form); and in the rep range of 7-15

Day 1: Upper body (note I will change up exercises every 6-8 weeks, but my repaired shoulder puts some limitations on my exercise options)
Chest (8 total sets): Decline dumbbells - 4 sets; Standing Cable Incline Flyes: 4 sets
Shoulders (6 total sets): Dumbbell Presses: 3 sets; Side Laterals: 3 sets
Triceps (4 total sets): Reverse Pull Downs: 4 sets
Back (8 total sets): Front Pull Downs: 4 sets; Dumbbell Rows: 4 sets
Biceps (3 total sets): Curls: 3 sets

Day 2: Legs (and traps); again, my shoulder surgery prohibits me from doing barbell squats, but I mix in other exercises like Bulgarian split squats, lunges, etc... in place of leg press and hack squats, but just to give you an idea of volume:
Legs (12 total sets): Leg Press: 3 sets; Hack Squat: 3 sets; Leg Extensions: 3 sets; Leg Curls: 3 sets
Calves: (5 total sets): Sitting Calf Raises (5 sets)
Traps (3 total sets): Dumbbell Shrugs: 3 sets

Day 3: Off

REPEAT

Thanks for your feedback!

At 62, I'm finding that a full-body three-day a week workout is plenty challenging. It's Madcow, basically a 5x5 with 4 main lifts every session, along with as many accessories as my energy levels allow. By the third workout day of the week, which is the heaviest of the sessions, I'm definitely weary. Having the two days recovery before the next cycle begins makes all the difference. I'm not sure my system could handle a 4-day cycle, even if it is split.

[grubman]

This is a simplification, but with full body, I was good with 9 sets a week for big and 6 sets a week for small (hitting each 3 times a week). With P/P/L I’m able to do 12 sets a week for big 8 sets a week for small (hitting each twice a week).

Doesn’t sound like a lot, but that’s a lot more reps a week.

[Iceman1800]

What I've read is higher frequency is fine but the volume is constant. Instead of 6 sets per bodypart 2x a week, it would go to 4 sets per bodypart 3x a week so the total number of sets stays the same.

[drjoe]

I'm going to be 54 soon, and I find that my body responds best to still training frequently (6 days a week) but I've cut down my workout duration. I'm in and out of the gym in 45 minutes max. I also work more calisthenics into my daily workouts but still incorporate heavy basic movements throughout the week. Good luck!

[tkdnj]

This is a simplification, but with full body, I was good with 9 sets a week for big and 6 sets a week for small (hitting each 3 times a week). With P/P/L I’m able to do 12 sets a week for big 8 sets a week for small (hitting each twice a week).

Doesn’t sound like a lot, but that’s a lot more reps a week.

Interesting Grubman; maybe the routine I am about to start has too much volume. I set it up for 8 sets for large muscles every THREE days (16 sets every 6 days). Too much?

[Plateauplower]

I think people underestimate the body's ability to adapt to stimuli. When training truly "heavy" where grinding out low rep sets at 90%+ 1RM there is a significant amount of stress on the body and CNS, that seems to require more recovery or periodization for me). I have found for myself that training at a slightly lower intensity for many of my accessories I am able to put in a pretty insane amount of volume "for me" and able to recover just fine and am in a deficit. Some of this work is junk/fluff rehab type stuff, and I always tend to do better with acclimation sets even when I am warmed up, so those don't really count as work sets IMO, but I think I still benefit from them. I train Chest back, shoulders and triceps on Mon and Thursday/ Legs and Biceps Tues and Fri and ahave been dieting and doing a lot of LISS. as an example here is todays session.

5:05-6:25 / 80 Min / 47 sets

BB Bench
135x10
185x5
225x5
235x4
235x4
235x4
205x9
205x6 (done after set of 95x10 OHP)

SS With

LM T-Bar Rows
135x10
160x8
180x8
190x8
190x8
190x8
------------
OHP
45x10
95x10
115x8
135x5
135x5
135x5

SS With

WG Lat Pulldowns
160x10
180x10
200x8
200x8
200x8
200x8
------------
Dips
BW+45 X 6
BW+45 X 6
BW+45 X 6
BW+45 X 6
BW+45 X 6

SS With

DB Lateral Raises
15sX20
20sX15
20sX15
20sX15
------------------
TUT Tri Set

Rear Delt MAch
70x15
85x10
85x10
85x10

Tri Set with

DB Flys
45sX10
50sX10
55sX10
55sX8

Tri Set with

BB Rows
135x12
135x12
155x10
155x10

------------

On Thursday Ill use DBs for Bench and add 90lbs to BB rows (and do lower reps) and do weighted pull-ups etc. I have just gradually added volume until I fill my entire time I'm able to train with stuff. Obviously not all of these sets count as work sets, but on my acclimation sets I really focus on getting the prime movers engaged and ready to move weight. It seems to be working for me, but I'm 38 and not 50 yet so YMMV....

[tkdnj]

At 62, I'm finding that a full-body three-day a week workout is plenty challenging. It's Madcow, basically a 5x5 with 4 main lifts every session, along with as many accessories as my energy levels allow. By the third workout day of the week, which is the heaviest of the sessions, I'm definitely weary. Having the two days recovery before the next cycle begins makes all the difference. I'm not sure my system could handle a 4-day cycle, even if it is split.

Good info Elrond, thanks... full body is the one workout I have not been able to conquer in all my years of training. I have tried, but never got comfortable with hitting legs with intensity and then doing any heavy upper body movements. That is why I came up with this "Upper / Lower / Off / Repeat" across 3 days. But everyone I know who does full body loves it.

[tkdnj]

I'm going to be 54 soon, and I find that my body responds best to still training frequently (6 days a week) but I've cut down my workout duration. I'm in and out of the gym in 45 minutes max. I also work more calisthenics into my daily workouts but still incorporate heavy basic movements throughout the week. Good luck!

Thanks DrJoe.... if you don't mind, what does your weekly routine look like? How often are you working each muscle? How much volume? Thanks!

[grubman]

Interesting Grubman; maybe the routine I am about to start has too much volume. I set it up for 8 sets for large muscles every THREE days (16 sets every 6 days). Too much?

I think it’s highly individual. It’s going to be based on both your body, and your training. Some people can just dig deeper than other people, and train more effectively with what appears to be “less”, others need more to get to the same place...and even then they might not have done the same work as the first guy.

I’ve always been a believer that the old Mike Mentzer / Nautulus theory of one set was true...but I also believe 99.999% of people can’t train that intensely (including most of the people who actually do “heavy Duty” workouts). As in, they can’t dig deep enough to truly surpass (mentally and physically) what the body can handle on that one set...I mean, think about how hard that would truly be.

[tkdnj]

I think people underestimate the body's ability to adapt to stimuli. When training truly "heavy" where grinding out low rep sets at 90%+ 1RM there is a significant amount of stress on the body and CNS, that seems to require more recovery or periodization for me). I have found for myself that training at a slightly lower intensity for many of my accessories I am able to put in a pretty insane amount of volume "for me" and able to recover just fine and am in a deficit. Some of this work is junk/fluff rehab type stuff, and I always tend to do better with acclimation sets even when I am warmed up, so those don't really count as work sets IMO, but I think I still benefit from them. I train Chest back, shoulders and triceps on Mon and Thursday/ Legs and Biceps Tues and Fri and ahave been dieting and doing a lot of LISS. as an example here is todays session.

5:05-6:25 / 80 Min / 47 sets

BB Bench
135x10
185x5
225x5
235x4
235x4
235x4
205x9
205x6 (done after set of 95x10 OHP)

SS With

LM T-Bar Rows
135x10
160x8
180x8
190x8
190x8
190x8
------------
OHP
45x10
95x10
115x8
135x5
135x5
135x5

SS With

WG Lat Pulldowns
160x10
180x10
200x8
200x8
200x8
200x8
------------
Dips
BW+45 X 6
BW+45 X 6
BW+45 X 6
BW+45 X 6
BW+45 X 6

SS With

DB Lateral Raises
15sX20
20sX15
20sX15
20sX15
------------------
TUT Tri Set

Rear Delt MAch
70x15
85x10
85x10
85x10

Tri Set with

DB Flys
45sX10
50sX10
55sX10
55sX8

Tri Set with

BB Rows
135x12
135x12
155x10
155x10

------------

On Thursday Ill use DBs for Bench and add 90lbs to BB rows (and do lower reps) and do weighted pull-ups etc. I have just gradually added volume until I fill my entire time I'm able to train with stuff. Obviously not all of these sets count as work sets, but on my acclimation sets I really focus on getting the prime movers engaged and ready to move weight. It seems to be working for me, but I'm 38 and not 50 yet so YMMV....

Thanks Plateau.... good info regarding acclimation sets...how long typically are your workouts?

[Plateauplower]

Thanks Plateau.... good info regarding acclimation sets...how long typically are your workouts?

Mon and Thurs about 80 min and Tuesday and Friday 60-70 min usually (about 30 sets)

Heres a link to my current log with my sessions from when I started dieting in Jan....
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...5221741&page=7

[drjoe]

Thanks DrJoe.... if you don't mind, what does your weekly routine look like? How often are you working each muscle? How much volume? Thanks!

Monday is always squat (leg) day.
Tuesday I focus on chest.
Wednesday is often a calisthenic/cardio day. I'm running like 400s and then in between doing sets of dips, chinups, handstand pushups, toes to bar, etc.
Thursday is deadlift (back) day.
Friday is usually the day I do cleans, push presses, front squats, etc.
Saturday is whatever I feel I need more work on.
Sunday is usually off but sometimes I do a little something just to keep loose.

All of the above are short intense workouts. You won't catch me talking to anyone in the gym and wasting time. LOL. Good luck!

[tblodg15]

Tkdnj, I will be curious to see how increasing the frequency is working for you. I tried going from working each muscle group every 4 or 5 days to twice within a week which was every 3 or 4 days. I did not like it and did not feel ready to go hard again after only 3 days rest. BUT, I did not really back off on volume that much. I did try going lighter and reducing the sets on the 2nd workout of the week but I struggle with stopping short of failure and think maybe I was pushing too hard on my light day. Anyways I went back to every 4th and 5th day after only 3 weeks and it just felt better.

[drudixon]

You have to mix up. Frequency is king, but only for so long. Eventually the aches, pains or just the niggles catch up. I've done Bulgarian method (max every day) and bro splits. I keep a program for 8 weeks unless something drastic happens. By switching back and forth I interest my mind, break plateaus, and keep pain at bay. I added 2lbs lbm while losing 10lbs in the last 2 years and added 50lbs to my deadlift. Mainly, I've been in the gym as scheduled non stop, excepting the break I took a few months ago. After 10 years of lifting I find keeping a schedule, any schedule is most important of all.

[Mark1T]

OP, I like your training schedule. I would even do that, but a factor that makes a difference to me, is what is your life-schedule when you are on a split like that? I could not be consistent since it changes every week to week.

That is why I do a Mon, Tues, Wed, Thurs split; or, a Mon, Tues, Wed, Friday split. This is because I usually travel on the weekends, sometimes Friday through Sundays. So, these splits allow me to get the most of my workouts and it fits my lifestyle.

If I didn't have a life and I was younger, say in college, your split would work just fine.

[tkdnj]

Tkdnj, I will be curious to see how increasing the frequency is working for you. I tried going from working each muscle group every 4 or 5 days to twice within a week which was every 3 or 4 days. I did not like it and did not feel ready to go hard again after only 3 days rest. BUT, I did not really back off on volume that much. I did try going lighter and reducing the sets on the 2nd workout of the week but I struggle with stopping short of failure and think maybe I was pushing too hard on my light day. Anyways I went back to every 4th and 5th day after only 3 weeks and it just felt better.

I will keep you updated... I decreased my volume for each muscle group by about 33% (for example 12 sets down to 8 sets for chest), but kept the weight and intensity the same.

[tkdnj]

OP, I like your training schedule. I would even do that, but a factor that makes a difference to me, is what is your life-schedule when you are on a split like that? I could not be consistent since it changes every week to week.
That is why I do a Mon, Tues, Wed, Thurs split; or, a Mon, Tues, Wed, Friday split. This is because I usually travel on the weekends, sometimes Friday through Sundays. So, these splits allow me to get the most of my workouts and it fits my lifestyle.
If I didn't have a life and I was younger, say in college, your split would work just fine.

sure, if it doesn't fit your life schedule, it's not going to work. For me, the day of the week is not an issue mainly because I do most of my workouts in my home gym (and I belong to a gym that is open 24/7), so if I have to work out at 10:00 PM because of my work or children's activities, then so be it. So there is rarely an excuse for me to not be able to find time to get my hour long work out in.

[tkdnj]

You have to mix up. Frequency is king, but only for so long. Eventually the aches, pains or just the niggles catch up. I've done Bulgarian method (max every day) and bro splits. I keep a program for 8 weeks unless something drastic happens. By switching back and forth I interest my mind, break plateaus, and keep pain at bay. I added 2lbs lbm while losing 10lbs in the last 2 years and added 50lbs to my deadlift. Mainly, I've been in the gym as scheduled non stop, excepting the break I took a few months ago. After 10 years of lifting I find keeping a schedule, any schedule is most important of all.

great points.... let's see how I progress and how long before I either plateau or sense "the niggles" coming on

[Garage Rat]

What no one has mentioned is recovery time.
When training one body part and then others within 48 hours your body is in a constant state of trying to recover.
Any weight training stimulates the CNS and it can have an effect on growth if over stimulated.
Of course everyone will be different but at 53 i would think that it would take longer for you to recover completely from a training session than when you were 33 and being natural at that.
With your low volume of sets you may be able to do it as long as your protein intake and rest are adequate.
Make sure you record your training and nutrition and observe results.
You might also want to take pics from month to month to compare any gains.
Good luck.

[tkdnj]

What no one has mentioned is recovery time.
When training one body part and then others within 48 hours your body is in a constant state of trying to recover.
Any weight training stimulates the CNS and it can have an effect on growth if over stimulated.
Of course everyone will be different but at 53 i would think that it would take longer for you to recover completely from a training session than when you were 33 and being natural at that.
With your low volume of sets you may be able to do it as long as your protein intake and rest are adequate.
Make sure you record your training and nutrition and observe results.
You might also want to take pics from month to month to compare any gains.
Good luck.

good points & recommendations.... thanks

[Mark1T]

I am not scientific and never have been. But, I think either frequency or volume would work well in combination with a good diet plan, no matter what your age is. I am certain that my body would adjust to either one and respond, as long as I maintain progression.

For me, the most important factor has been and is consistency. I have to be on death's door to miss a workout. But, I hit the gym at 4:40AM, so it does not interfere with my work or other activities.

[DuracellBunny]

There is no reason why you have to repeat the same thing when doing the same muscle groups multiple times per week. It is very easy psychologically to just repeat things, but IMO you get greater net gains by splitting things up.

I'm always wary of recommending routines/splits, as there are too many variables, but if you like the push/pull/legs way of doing things, you could try my split (the DB split, copyright pending :P )

Day1: strength chest, volume shoulders, tris
Day2: strength back, volume legs, bis
Day3: rest
Day4: strength shoulders, volume chest, tris
Day5: strength legs, volume back, bis
Day6: rest
Day7: rest

You can tailor it to fit almost anything, the beauty of it is the flexibility and the simplicity, although I tend to go with

Day1: flat bench, volume shoulders, tris
Day2: DLs, volume legs, bis
Day4: OHP, volume chest, tris
Day5: squat, volume back, bis

[tkdnj]

There is no reason why you have to repeat the same thing when doing the same muscle groups multiple times per week. It is very easy psychologically to just repeat things, but IMO you get greater net gains by splitting things up.

I'm always wary of recommending routines/splits, as there are too many variables, but if you like the push/pull/legs way of doing things, you could try my split (the DB split, copyright pending :P )

Day1: strength chest, volume shoulders, tris
Day2: strength back, volume legs, bis
Day3: rest
Day4: strength shoulders, volume chest, tris
Day5: strength legs, volume back, bis
Day6: rest
Day7: rest

You can tailor it to fit almost anything, the beauty of it is the flexibility and the simplicity, although I tend to go with

Day1: flat bench, volume shoulders, tris
Day2: DLs, volume legs, bis
Day4: OHP, volume chest, tris
Day5: squat, volume back, bis

Interesting... Am I correct in assuming that when it's a "strength" day for that muscle you are going with heavy compound movements with low volume, and when it's a "volume" day you are doing more isolation movements?

[DuracellBunny]

Interesting... Am I correct in assuming that when it's a "strength" day for that muscle you are going with heavy compound movements with low volume, and when it's a "volume" day you are doing more isolation movements?

Kinda.
Heavy compounds on strength day, but volume is whatever you like, as long as you get the volume out of it. Isolation, compounds, medium reps, high reps, pyramids, whatever works for you.

You can get incredibly anal with it, but the quick and dirty method is to programme the strength elements and do whatever you like for the volume elements, as long as they aren't the same exercise that you did for "strength".

[EjnarKolinkar]

there is no reason why you have to repeat the same thing when doing the same muscle groups multiple times per week.

qft.

[carrollcarroll]

Been offline for a spell, this thread hit close as I've recently took on the idea of 3on 1off (cardio) then repeat. Currently Legs (deads/squats,etc 4-5sets), Chest, Back. Repeating at that volume/frequency was concerning due to my age as everything I read was negative, bottom line the once a week muscle group 5x week routines though varied a bit had just stalled/plateaued after many years. I'm 2 months into the twice week idea and though a couple extra aches/pains have popped up, I'm seeing size/strength increases not experienced in years...be 63 here in few months. Obviously will need to alter plans if/when the body revolts but for now it's a gas to actually see gains at this age. Go for it! We all unique, and will respond to routines uniquely.

[tkdnj]

Been offline for a spell, this thread hit close as I've recently took on the idea of 3on 1off (cardio) then repeat. Currently Legs (deads/squats,etc 4-5sets), Chest, Back. Repeating at that volume/frequency was concerning due to my age as everything I read was negative, bottom line the once a week muscle group 5x week routines though varied a bit had just stalled/plateaued after many years. I'm 2 months into the twice week idea and though a couple extra aches/pains have popped up, I'm seeing size/strength increases not experienced in years...be 63 here in few months. Obviously will need to alter plans if/when the body revolts but for now it's a gas to actually see gains at this age. Go for it! We all unique, and will respond to routines uniquely.

good to hear....what is your volume like?