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  1. #1
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    **my personal program help (fullbody)

    hi I was wondering 180 reps is too much for a novice I see other novice programs and they are like super low volume but when I go back in time and check out some fullbody programs from the golden era (Arnold, leeroy, steve reeves etc etc..) they all did about 3 sets 2 exercises (6 sets per body part 180 reps in total for the week 3 days training) is that too much volume to progress as a novice? by the way i'm only doing 'high volume' for my traps cause I really wanna focus that part to grow through rackpulls and shrugs. I chose rackpulls for the compound movement instead of deadlifting because I have a back injury and I can also use more volume with rackpulls which in turn equals more total hypertrophy (right?).. ok thanks guys!

    Rackpull: 445
    Trap Bar Shrug: 270-320
    I'm currently cutting right now will bulk when I get lean enough (currently 19% goal 13-15% DXA scan standards)
    Last edited by lazy408; 06-06-2018 at 07:22 PM.
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  2. #2
    Registered User rsid97's Avatar
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    Its not 'too much volume', in the sense that I'm not going to just blatantly call it over training. BUT it is unnecessary and counterproductive for a novice to be doing like 10 movements a day if he can make gains using half of that. When you're on Vitamin S, pretty much anything is going to work, different situation since we're not.

    On a side note, most self constructed programs tend to be out of balance. For example, swapping deadlifts with rack pulls is going to mean you're missing a hip hinge movement as well as missing out the hamstring work.
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  3. #3
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    Originally Posted by rsid97 View Post
    Its not 'too much volume', in the sense that I'm not going to just blatantly call it over training. BUT it is unnecessary and counterproductive for a novice to be doing like 10 movements a day if he can make gains using half of that. When you're on Vitamin S, pretty much anything is going to work, different situation since we're not.

    On a side note, most self constructed programs tend to be out of balance. For example, swapping deadlifts with rack pulls is going to mean you're missing a hip hinge movement as well as missing out the hamstring work.

    lee roy was full natty, but how many reps/sets do you recommend for upperback/traps a week?
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    Originally Posted by lazy408 View Post
    lee roy was full natty, but how many reps/sets do you recommend for upperback/traps a week?
    Its tough to say for two reasons. For one, when you're dealing with proper compounds there are things with don't directly classify as a trap or upper back lift but still engage it. In the same way there are a million other factors to consider and balance out. Micro-managing at such a small level like this is going to have you tying yourself in knots if you want to actual routine at the end of the day.

    But here's a quick little guideline for you (IF we're talking about novice routine programming). We're looking at 2-4 pulling movements. So if that's 3 sets each thats 6-12x8 of upper back/traps. You're going to have a deadlift or a RDL so that's another 3x5 of upper back/trap. Then you've got OHP so there's another 3x5. If you're doing flat bench then you're getting some scapular retraction, or if you're doing dips then you're getting some more legit upperback/traps.

    So adding that all up you're looking at about 141 reps of heavy compound work thats hitting the traps/upper back indirectly, which is a lot harder than just doing fluff and pump direct work. And I do know that Fierce 5 follows very closely to these numbers so I'd actually say this is as high as you need to go as a novice.

    So ya td;lr - its not as simple to answer that question.
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    Originally Posted by rsid97 View Post
    On a side note, most self constructed programs tend to be out of balance. For example, swapping deadlifts with rack pulls is going to mean you're missing a hip hinge movement as well as missing out the hamstring work.
    Eh... what? If Rack Pulls isn't a hip hinge, what the hell is it? It's a deadlift with less leg work, but it's still a deadlift.
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    Originally Posted by TheViking1992 View Post
    Eh... what? If Rack Pulls isn't a hip hinge, what the hell is it? It's a deadlift with less leg work, but it's still a deadlift.
    Well I assumed he meant from above the knee since he was talking about trap work specifically. Should have asked what height he was talking about.

    I mean, would you accept an above the knee rack pull as a sub for deadlifts if there was no other hip hinge movement in the rest of the program? Genuine question. I mean, ya in terms of movement pattern it's still some sort of a hip hinge but I dunno about it being an acceptable sub for a full ROM deadlift as a hip hinge, if that makes any sense.
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    Originally Posted by rsid97 View Post
    Well I assumed he meant from above the knee since he was talking about trap work specifically. Should have asked what height he was talking about.

    I mean, would you accept an above the knee rack pull as a sub for deadlifts if there was no other hip hinge movement in the rest of the program? Genuine question. I mean, ya in terms of movement pattern it's still some sort of a hip hinge but I dunno about it being an acceptable sub for a full ROM deadlift as a hip hinge, if that makes any sense.
    Oh... that kind... I don't even consider it a rack pull. It's just a heavy carry... since it's all you're doing.
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    Originally Posted by TheViking1992 View Post
    Eh... what? If Rack Pulls isn't a hip hinge, what the hell is it? It's a deadlift with less leg work, but it's still a deadlift.
    It's how OP has been steering his questions. He seems fixated on upper upper body.

    Originally Posted by lazy408 View Post
    Hi I was wondering if anyone has seen a developed upper chest but a lagging lower chest..
    Originally Posted by lazy408 View Post
    If you could pick ONE movement would you rather Power shrug 500 pounds or Farmer Walk 500 pounds for reps STRICTLY to build UPPER TRAPS.. which one would you pick and why?
    Originally Posted by lazy408 View Post
    I was wondering if anyone feels crazy contractions in your upper back when you do rack pulls ABOVE the knee (Alphadestiny style popular youtuber).
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    Originally Posted by rsid97 View Post
    Its tough to say for two reasons. For one, when you're dealing with proper compounds there are things with don't directly classify as a trap or upper back lift but still engage it. In the same way there are a million other factors to consider and balance out. Micro-managing at such a small level like this is going to have you tying yourself in knots if you want to actual routine at the end of the day.

    But here's a quick little guideline for you (IF we're talking about novice routine programming). We're looking at 2-4 pulling movements. So if that's 3 sets each thats 6-12x8 of upper back/traps. You're going to have a deadlift or a RDL so that's another 3x5 of upper back/trap. Then you've got OHP so there's another 3x5. If you're doing flat bench then you're getting some scapular retraction, or if you're doing dips then you're getting some more legit upperback/traps.

    So adding that all up you're looking at about 141 reps of heavy compound work thats hitting the traps/upper back indirectly, which is a lot harder than just doing fluff and pump direct work. And I do know that Fierce 5 follows very closely to these numbers so I'd actually say this is as high as you need to go as a novice.

    So ya td;lr - its not as simple to answer that question.
    Jason Blaha (youtuber look up "Ice Cream Novice Program") has his novices do shrugs and says that shrugs activate the highest activation of the traps so is it really considered fluff work? people swear by rackpulls/deadlifts build the traps but Blaha says its not the most optimal way to do it so why not include some shrugs to add more volume and actual contraction of the muscle instead of only isometric contraction?
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    Originally Posted by lazy408 View Post
    Jason Blaha (youtuber look up "Ice Cream Novice Program") has his novices do shrugs and says that shrugs activate the highest activation of the traps so is it really considered fluff work? people swear by rackpulls/deadlifts build the traps but Blaha says its not the most optimal way to do it so why not include some shrugs to add more volume and actual contraction of the muscle instead of only isometric contraction?
    I'm aware of who he is and probably won't pay much attention to him. I'm not saying shrugs are pointless, I'm saying two things.

    1) Shrugs are not the only way to train your traps. The movement pattern of simply shrugging isn't the only function of the traps (Athleanx has touched on this, saying that since you seem to get all your info off of youtube). Saying that shrugs are the only way to train your upper back and traps is like saying that doing a front delt raise is the only way to train your shoulders despite already doing flat bench and OHP.

    2)Don't just add in a bunch of extra shrugs and rackpulls. If you want to do shrugs then run a routine that has shrugs in it already.
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by rsid97 View Post
    I'm aware of who he is and probably won't pay much attention to him. I'm not saying shrugs are pointless, I'm saying two things.

    1) Shrugs are not the only way to train your traps. The movement pattern of simply shrugging isn't the only function of the traps (Athleanx has touched on this, saying that since you seem to get all your info off of youtube). Saying that shrugs are the only way to train your upper back and traps is like saying that doing a front delt raise is the only way to train your shoulders despite already doing flat bench and OHP.

    2)Don't just add in a bunch of extra shrugs and rackpulls. If you want to do shrugs then run a routine that has shrugs in it already.

    yeah i added shrugs because it contracts the muscle for direct work. the mid back can be covered by rows or some from isometric stretch from either the deadlift or rackpull. thanks though.
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    More to the point, I think we need to see your full program (exercises, reps, sets, days, progression).

    Also, it's not necessarily true that rack pulls will be easier on your back compared with deadlifts from the floor. It's simply a trade-off of shear and compression forces (more weight with rack pulls = more compression, although more upright torso angle = less shear).
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    Originally Posted by Luca2 View Post
    More to the point, I think we need to see your full program (exercises, reps, sets, days, progression).

    Also, it's not necessarily true that rack pulls will be easier on your back compared with deadlifts from the floor. It's simply a trade-off of shear and compression forces (more weight with rack pulls = more compression, although more upright torso angle = less shear).
    Sunday:
    Box squat 5x2
    Overhead press 3x3
    Weighted Chin up 6x5
    Incline Press 8x3
    Bench Press 3x3
    Rackpull 10x3
    Shrugs 5x5
    Facepulls 3x10
    Weighted Crunches 6x10

    Tuesday:
    Box squat 5x2
    Trapbar Deadlift 5x2
    Split and Jerk 5x2
    Weighted Pull up 6x5
    Cable Rows 2x10
    Incline press 3x3
    Rackpulls 5x3
    Shrugs 3x5
    Weighted crunches 6x10

    Friday:
    Box squat 5x2
    Trapbar deadlift 5x2
    DB Overhead press 5x5
    Weighted Pull Up/Lat Pulldown 8x5
    Incline Press 3x5
    Bench Press 3x5
    Rackpull 8x3
    Shrugs 3x5
    Facepulls 3x10
    Weighted Crunches 6x10

    I do rackpulls ABOVE the knee.
    Last edited by lazy408; 06-08-2018 at 06:14 PM.
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    Originally Posted by lazy408 View Post
    Sunday:
    Box squat 5x2
    Overhead press 3x3
    Weighted Chin up 6x5
    Incline Press 8x3
    Bench Press 3x3
    Rackpull 10x3
    Shrugs 5x5
    Facepulls 3x10
    Weighted Crunches 6x10

    Tuesday:
    Box squat 5x2
    Trapbar Deadlift 5x2
    Split and Jerk 5x2
    Weighted Pull up 6x5
    Cable Rows 2x10
    Incline press 3x3
    Rackpulls 5x3
    Shrugs 3x5
    Weighted crunches 6x10

    Friday:
    Box squat 5x2
    Trapbar deadlift 5x2
    DB Overhead press 5x5
    Weighted Pull Up/Lat Pulldown 8x5
    Incline Press 3x5
    Bench Press 3x5
    Rackpull 8x3
    Shrugs 3x5
    Facepulls 3x10
    Weighted Crunches 6x10

    I do rackpulls ABOVE the knee.
    Nailed it

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    Originally Posted by lazy408 View Post
    When I go back in time and check out some fullbody programs from the golden era
    Originally Posted by lazy408 View Post
    Too much volume to progress as a novice?
    I believe Reeves talked about 1 set of 12-15 reps for novices at 3x a week. I think he suggested that 2 sets could be started after 6 month training.

    There are many full body novice programs online which use 6-10 movements 2-3x a week. Most of those are set up on a 1-2 set model when in 8-12 rep ranges. The other thing to remember is that as many of these programs advance the trainee to 2-3 sets, they evolve to a light, medium, and heavy workout.



































    *I've never seen shrugs in any of them.
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    I think your program has too many exercises to keep progressing in everything.

    Take it from experience... if you want to build strength, and it seems like you do, since you are focusing on lower reps. 5-6 exercises max, or you'll burn out fast.

    Overhead press 3x3
    Incline Press 8x3
    Bench Press 3x3

    Pick one and increase the volume


    There is absolutely zero chances that you will get very strong on that program. You'll burn yourself out once the weights start to get heavy.
    FS/ S/ OHP/ B/ DL
    120/150/70/100/180 =KG
    I don't go to the gym anymore so above stats are useless.

    Only do weighted calastentics in the comfort of my own home!

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    Originally Posted by Junsuiakai View Post
    I think your program has too many exercises to keep progressing in everything.

    Take it from experience... if you want to build strength, and it seems like you do, since you are focusing on lower reps. 5-6 exercises max, or you'll burn out fast.

    Overhead press 3x3
    Incline Press 8x3
    Bench Press 3x3

    Pick one and increase the volume


    There is absolutely zero chances that you will get very strong on that program. You'll burn yourself out once the weights start to get heavy.
    Relative numbers should be where? Im expecting to raise my incline press to about 220-225 for 3. Bench press to about 185 for 3 (which I already completed.) My goal for the overhead press is 205 for 1. Should I just drop the bench press and incline press?
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  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by EjnarKolinkar View Post
    I believe Reeves talked about 1 set of 12-15 reps for novices at 3x a week. I think he suggested that 2 sets could be started after 6 month training.

    There are many full body novice programs online which use 6-10 movements 2-3x a week. Most of those are set up on a 1-2 set model when in 8-12 rep ranges. The other thing to remember is that as many of these programs advance the trainee to 2-3 sets, they evolve to a light, medium, and heavy workout.


































    *I've never seen shrugs in any of them.
    Ah, I just know Arnold recommended 6 exercises 3 sets of 10 for novices. They didn't focus on traps at all true.. i'm just trying to use a similar philosophy of using about 2 different exercises with 2-3 sets per exercise. i'm more of an early to mid intermediate I think... so I added a little extra volume. I count my volume through total reps and not by how many sets I do. My total volume is between 80-150 reps per body part. IF i'm truly no longer a novice and now a intermediate do you still think its a bit too much?
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  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by lazy408 View Post
    I count my volume through total reps and not by how many sets I do.
    https://www.strongerbyscience.com/th...aining-volume/

    If I am reading your routine correctly, you are doing 70 sets of heavy triples and doubles in a week?? If yes, that's just nuts.

    Or are you listing [reps] x [sets] for some exercises, and [sets] x [reps] for others?
    Last edited by Luca2; 06-09-2018 at 02:22 AM.
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