Thoughts going out to Texas, another school shooting

[mtpockets]

At least eight people were killed in today's shooting at Santa Fe High School, Harris County Sheriff Ed Gonzalez said in a news conference. He added that a majority of the fatalities are students.

One suspect is in custody and a second person has been detained.

A police officer was also injured.

Sheriff's officials received reports of an active shooting at the school just before 8 a.m.,

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/san...ing/index.html

[mtpockets]

How about a gun ban?

Or just ban idiots, it seemed to have worked on you.

[mtpockets]

After Santa Fe shooting, NFL star JJ Watt offers to pay for funerals

Pro football star J.J. Watt is once again aiding the Houston area in a time of tragedy, as the community deals with Friday’s horrific school shooting that left at least 10 dead and 10 more injured in Santa Fe, Texas.

The Houston Texans defensive end – who raised millions of dollars for relief efforts following Hurricane Harvey last year – reportedly said he will pay for the funerals of those who were killed Friday morning at Santa Fe High School




Kudo's Good on him..

[Mark1T]

Acknowledging your good thread, MT. Thoughts and prayers.

[Bando]

Probably an old can of worms, but I'm gonna speak up and open it anyway.

When streakers and other Jackasses ran onto sports fields for games, the leagues stopped putting them on camera. Took a couple of years and we had to listen to "play is paused as there is a disruption on the field" but not see anything. It wasn't a spectacle anymore, just an annoyance. Took 2 or 3 years, but these people largely went away.

I'm all for a free press, but in these instances I say "Get that son of a bitch off the TV screen."

[crupiea]

How about we require schools to protect our kids?

[Karl_Hungus]

Probably an old can of worms, but I'm gonna speak up and open it anyway.

When streakers and other Jackasses ran onto sports fields for games, the leagues stopped putting them on camera. Took a couple of years and we had to listen to "play is paused as there is a disruption on the field" but not see anything. It wasn't a spectacle anymore, just an annoyance. Took 2 or 3 years, but these people largely went away.

I'm all for a free press, but in these instances I say "Get that son of a bitch off the TV screen."

I said the exact same thing after the last school shooting. This @sshole explicitly stated that he wanted other people to tell his story...and of course, the media will do exactly that and fulfill the shooter's wishes. It is a quick way for losers to become instantly famous.

[Karl_Hungus]

How about we require schools to protect our kids?

Yup, if we had armed cops in the schools, I suspect we'd have a lot fewer shootings.

[Bando]

Yup, if we had armed cops in the schools, I suspect we'd have a lot fewer shootings.

I'm all for something similar and advocated for it in the last thread about the subject. I'm arguing for getting rid of the motive for these things, instant celebrity. Hell I would even bury the shooter in an unmarked grave, by a couple cemetery workers on a Tuesday morning with no ceremony whatsoever. No tombstone, no newspaper articles, no copycats. You do a school shooting you go quietly in the ground.

[7Seconds]

Studies have already been done on mass shooting contagion and the role of the media, but I do wonder what use media guidelines are when students can livestream getting shot in school to the tweetbooksnapgrams. A significant percentage of Americans report getting their news primarily from online sources, with younger Americans--the ones most likely to be in the "shoot up a school" demographic--being the heaviest users of online social media sources. You can issue and follow all the media guidelines you want, but the information that might prove motivating to interested parties (like future school shooters) is still readily available outside of those traditional news outlets.

[Bando]

Studies have already been done on mass shooting contagion and the role of the media, but I do wonder what use media guidelines are when students can livestream getting shot in school to the tweetbooksnapgrams. A significant percentage of Americans report getting their news primarily from online sources, with younger Americans--the ones most likely to be in the "shoot up a school" demographic--being the heaviest users of online social media sources. You can issue and follow all the media guidelines you want, but the information that might prove motivating to interested parties (like future school shooters) is still readily available outside of those traditional news outlets.

As much as I can't stand the pompous pussy grabber in the White House, I'm starting to have a grudging respect for his ability to ignore studies and just get chit done. Whether it works or not is one thing but reminds me of that old country tune, "a little less talk and a lot more action."

[Karl_Hungus]

Studies have already been done on mass shooting contagion and the role of the media, but I do wonder what use media guidelines are when students can livestream getting shot in school to the tweetbooksnapgrams. A significant percentage of Americans report getting their news primarily from online sources, with younger Americans--the ones most likely to be in the "shoot up a school" demographic--being the heaviest users of online social media sources. You can issue and follow all the media guidelines you want, but the information that might prove motivating to interested parties (like future school shooters) is still readily available outside of those traditional news outlets.

I haven't even looked at the studies and I can proclaim with confidence that they are largely worthless. Why? Because there is no real way to carry out such a study that would provide you with any useful results. In terms of kids being motivated via alternative media forms -- anything is possible, but they would not attain the same level of household fame that they do when mainstream media outlets obsess over the shooter for weeks. I just don't see them as remotely comparable.

[ElrondHubbard]

Studies have already been done on mass shooting contagion and the role of the media, but I do wonder what use media guidelines are when students can livestream getting shot in school to the tweetbooksnapgrams. A significant percentage of Americans report getting their news primarily from online sources, with younger Americans--the ones most likely to be in the "shoot up a school" demographic--being the heaviest users of online social media sources. You can issue and follow all the media guidelines you want, but the information that might prove motivating to interested parties (like future school shooters) is still readily available outside of those traditional news outlets.

This really is out of the hands of traditional media. They have no control over what gets viewed or not. Which is why most of the solutions proposed here are less than useful.

[ElrondHubbard]

As much as I can't stand the pompous pussy grabber in the White House, I'm starting to have a grudging respect for his ability to ignore studies and just get chit done. Whether it works or not is one thing but reminds me of that old country tune, "a little less talk and a lot more action."

While "studies" can be manipulated to reach any conclusion you want, if you're going to "just get chit done" with no context or perspective in mind, you're going to do the wrong chit. That just makes chit worse.

You don't need to ignore studies, you need to vet them and critique them honestly. That's not happening, neither in the White House, nor in Congress, nor in this forum.

[ElrondHubbard]

I haven't even looked at the studies and I can proclaim with confidence that they are largely worthless. Why? Because there is no real way to carry out such a study that would provide you with any useful results. In terms of kids being motivated via alternative media forms -- anything is possible, but they would not attain the same level of household fame that they do when mainstream media outlets obsess over the shooter for weeks. I just don't see them as remotely comparable.

I'm not confident in your proclamation with confidence. Of course there are ways to carry out such studies. You grew up with traditional media, and you're biased to pay more attention to it. I don't think that's true of today's generation. But it's certainly not impossible to find out.

[icetrauma]

Several things could help. Of course armed security will help. Single entry and exit during school hours. All doors on campus, except single entry exit point, will be locked to the outside. If students need to access these doors during school for travel to and from classes, then an administrator will be present to monitor traffic. This includes gated entry in to the parking lot with only visitor parking having open access. Entry and exit out of school parking lots will be allowed by school security. Metal detectors will help along with the single/exit point. This point will have security personal present at all time. Only clear bags allowed on school campus. Limit the size of purses students can carry. They don't need a suitcase for a bag. External camera's placed to monitor school grounds 24/7. Monitors must be placed in the schools central command area for security. Lock down procedures to secure doors accessing the main school hallways if, a threat is detected.

[Karl_Hungus]

I'm not confident in your proclamation with confidence. Of course there are ways to carry out such studies.

No, there are not. I've spent the last 25 years designing and implementing studies as well as serving as peer-reviewer to determine which studies pass muster for publication -- so, I await with great interest your assessment of which studies adequately address the relationship between media reports and mass shootings. If there aren't any, then I am very interested in hearing your proposed experimental design for how such studies might be carried out. Feel free to post it here.

You grew up with traditional media, and you're biased to pay more attention to it. I don't think that's true of today's generation. But it's certainly not impossible to find out.

You are conflating my first point with the second one. I said nothing about research addressing the relative contribution of traditional versus alternative media.

[startingat56]

Several things could help. Of course armed security will help. Single entry and exit during school hours. All doors on campus, except single entry exit point, will be locked to the outside. If students need to access these doors during school for travel to and from classes, then an administrator will be present to monitor traffic. This includes gated entry in to the parking lot with only visitor parking having open access. Entry and exit out of school parking lots will be allowed by school security. Metal detectors will help along with the single/exit point. This point will have security personal present at all time. Only clear bags allowed on school campus. Limit the size of purses students can carry. They don't need a suitcase for a bag. External camera's placed to monitor school grounds 24/7. Monitors must be placed in the schools central command area for security. Lock down procedures to secure doors accessing the main school hallways if, a threat is detected.

armed security or teachers will only serve to limit the casualties but won't prevent the initial casualties, so it's not really a solution

single entry points will only serve to create large groups (line ups) which make easy targets. Whether it's the front door or the fence gate at the school property, at some point there will be a large crowd. You need to avoid creating a crowd

If successful at protecting kids at school, then the shooters will find new places to target

Unfortunately, this trend is going to be around for a while until parenting improves ... and that is not likely to happen soon

Bullying has always been around but social media and tech have brought it to a whole new level

It certainly is a catch 22 .... can't get rid of guns .... can't be safe with them around

good luck with all of that

[startingat56]

Several things could help. Of course armed security will help. Single entry and exit during school hours. All doors on campus, except single entry exit point, will be locked to the outside. If students need to access these doors during school for travel to and from classes, then an administrator will be present to monitor traffic. This includes gated entry in to the parking lot with only visitor parking having open access. Entry and exit out of school parking lots will be allowed by school security. Metal detectors will help along with the single/exit point. This point will have security personal present at all time. Only clear bags allowed on school campus. Limit the size of purses students can carry. They don't need a suitcase for a bag. External camera's placed to monitor school grounds 24/7. Monitors must be placed in the schools central command area for security. Lock down procedures to secure doors accessing the main school hallways if, a threat is detected.

How about you put the prisoners in the schools and the students in the prisons?

win /win

[icetrauma]

How about you put the prisoners in the schools and the students in the prisons?

win /win

Your missing the point on single entry during school hours. All doors, except the entry point remained locked to enter but can be accessed to be exited. You know, push the bar and exit. As far as the prison comment, people wine and complain about everything. If it means safer schools then you have to sacrifice something. Criminals are always going to find a way to accomplish their goals.

[Brackneyc]

How about you put the prisoners in the schools and the students in the prisons?

win /win

You been to a school lately?

[Lou1se]

Terrible tragedy. My heart goes out to the families and friends and all those affected. A very sad time.

Vakrka, who is a member here said in a past post that as part of his job, he studies in great detail every mass shooting.

[startingat56]

Your missing the point on single entry during school hours. All doors, except the entry point remained locked to enter but can be accessed to be exited. You know, push the bar and exit. As far as the prison comment, people wine and complain about everything. If it means safer schools then you have to sacrifice something. Criminals are always going to find a way to accomplish their goals.

I don't think I'm missing the point

where you have a single point of entry, or fewer points of entry with inspection, you will have a crowd that will be reasonably penned in, making them a shooting gallery. The kids are not going to come to school earlier, and will be lined up.

If you only allow a single point of entry when all kids have arrived and entered, the effed up kid just needs to arrive earlier or plan better, but I seriously doubt that the system will be bulletproof (pun intended)


School shootings are fast becoming equivalent to saying "Have a nice day". They are barely in the news for long, and only to report the scoreboard. If the schools become fortresses, the effed up kids will just "recalculate". Militarizing schools is a short term band aid solution that will not solve anything (maybe just that kill zone).

[thomashenry]

This will not be popular with some. However, it is a root cause of much that we see wrong in our society today. We have a parenting crisis. We have children committing the mass murder of their classmates. We have high rates of suicide among the young. We have millions of kids medicated just to make it through the day. We have children confused about whether they are a boy or a girl. We have children growing up without a grasp of what it means to be an American and the blessings of liberty. We have young people unwilling or unable to take care of and support themselves.

Too many adults have decided to be friends with their children rather than parents. Too many adults have been unwilling to commit to marriages and the children born into those marriages. Too many have decided to have and raise children outside of a stable two-parent environment. Too many have put their own needs ahead of their family. Too many people have fallen victim to the lies of the Left that has replaced God with man and government and morality and discipline with decadence and irresponsibility.

The greatest responsibility any generation has is the raising of the next generation

[mtpockets]

I grew up with guns all around me, so did kids in every household, they were in gun racks similar to the one above, the shells were in the unlocked drawer like in the rack. I was hunting small game before I hit double digits, almost all of us kids had easy access to guns and ammo, they were tools.
I was no saint in school and got into a lot of fights, I handed out some black eyes and bloody noses and got handed a few in return. Never once did I even remotely consider using a firearm for anything other than putting meat on the table or taking care of a nuisance bear.

Today guns are under lock and key and people are shooting up schools, what happened?

Thomas, I think you hit on part of the issue, but I think there are more contributing factors. Does anyone think that perhaps video games which sensationalize killing may even play a role to some degree? What are other factors that could play a role?

[startingat56]

This will not be popular with some. However, it is a root cause of much that we see wrong in our society today. We have a parenting crisis. We have children committing the mass murder of their classmates. We have high rates of suicide among the young. We have millions of kids medicated just to make it through the day. We have children confused about whether they are a boy or a girl. We have children growing up without a grasp of what it means to be an American and the blessings of liberty. We have young people unwilling or unable to take care of and support themselves.

Too many adults have decided to be friends with their children rather than parents. Too many adults have been unwilling to commit to marriages and the children born into those marriages. Too many have decided to have and raise children outside of a stable two-parent environment. Too many have put their own needs ahead of their family. Too many people have fallen victim to the lies of the Left that has replaced God with man and government and morality and discipline with decadence and irresponsibility.

The greatest responsibility any generation has is the raising of the next generation

you are correct with or without God in the equation ... with or without partisan BS in the equation

do a deep dive on school shootings to see if the families of the effed up kids were Republican or Democrat


"every generation is dumber than their parents"
(Gord Downie)

[KeepItMoving]

Guns used to be everywhere in homes and families, and, yes, even in and around schools. Kids had guns in there trucks and hunted in the mornings before class. Even in my high school, we brought guns to school to shoot in the basement where a gun range was set up.

No, it's not "guns." Guns have been here way before this issue. Something has changed.

It's almost as if the family has been mutilated; so many fathers and mothers of these kids have become estranged from each other and their families. It's almost as if the belief in an existence beyond our everyday life...Faith...has been destroyed. It's almost as if parenting has been usurped by outside forces, influences and distractions.

(Yes, I'm being sarcastic in my use of the words "It's almost as if.")

[ElrondHubbard]

No, there are not. I've spent the last 25 years designing and implementing studies as well as serving as peer-reviewer to determine which studies pass muster for publication -- so, I await with great interest your assessment of which studies adequately address the relationship between media reports and mass shootings. If there aren't any, then I am very interested in hearing your proposed experimental design for how such studies might be carried out. Feel free to post it here.

It's not that big a mystery. Given time, a grant, and a few interns, I could certainly conduct such a study, and so could you. So could a lot of other people. The data is out there already -- a number of companies have done very well for themselves collecting, analyzing, and selling data on usage, demographics, and behaviors of the users of internet media. Similar studies have been done on TV and radio for years. Somebody has to go to the effort of obtaining the data, collating it, and digging up the relationships it can reveal. It's waiting to be mined and processed. It doesn't have to be narrowly focused on mass shootings. Media influences many behaviors and attitudes, as well as giving echo chambers to those holding various beliefs and urges, allowing them to be amplified. There are a number of proxies one could use.

My hypothesis may be wrong, but it's a real stretch for you to say that it's untestable.

You are conflating my first point with the second one. I said nothing about research addressing the relative contribution of traditional versus alternative media.

That would be the whole point of the discussion. Not you necessarily, but in this thread it's been suggested that the major media outlets should not give coverage to these events, and then they would go away. Others, including myself, argue that among the demographic that's both perpetrating and being victimized by these shootings, "traditional" media is less influential than the aggregate of the various forms of internet social media. So cutting out coverage by the networks simply would not work. It wouldn't have the effect that some here believe it would.

[ElrondHubbard]

Guns used to be everywhere in homes and families, and, yes, even in and around schools. Kids had guns in there trucks and hunted in the mornings before class. Even in my high school, we brought guns to school to shoot in the basement where a gun range was set up.

No, it's not "guns." Guns have been here way before this issue. Something has changed.

It's almost as if the family has been mutilated; so many fathers and mothers of these kids have become estranged from each other and their families. It's almost as if the belief in an existence beyond our everyday life...Faith...has been destroyed. It's almost as if parenting has been usurped by outside forces, influences and distractions.

(Yes, I'm being sarcastic in my use of the words "It's almost as if.")

Speaking of claims that don't have data to back them up...

If your hypothesis were true, then you would find evidence that atheists and their offspring are more likely to perpetrate violent crimes and engage in anti-social behavior than believers.

That evidence doesn't exist.

[ElrondHubbard]

Dumb ass Mark1T doesn’t like my post because he’s a Trump nut. He just negged me and made a very stupid comment.

Actually, he doesn't like your post because you're a troll.

Reasonable people can disagree. You're not a reasonable person.