Manganese

[SurfSteve]

Done a lot of reading up on manganese lately.

Seems like there are far more people suffering from manganese poisoning than manganese deficiency. Most of these people are exposed to manganese from industry. It is common among welders and people that work in manganese processing plants. Also with people that live down wind of them and that mine the stuff. The worse exposure comes through the lungs where it goes directly to the brain, bypassing the blood brain barrier. Manganese poisoning results in Parkinson's disease like symptoms.

Clinical manganese deficiency symptoms are rare. Most people get plenty in their diets, especially vegetarians who can get up to 5 times the recommended dose. Most manganese is ingested through intake of grains. Being on a grain free diet, my best estimate is that I am getting roughly only 20% of the recommended amount. I also read that supplementing with magnesium which I do, can cause a manganese deficiency; but whenever I stop taking magnesium I get leg cramps so I thought it might be a good idea for me to try supplementing with manganese too.


The article below was the best I could find on the subject, especially if you read all the comments. Many say it focuses too much on the negative aspect. Nothing I could find goes into detail about the different forms of manganese available. I think this has been unfortunately overlooked.

11 Benefits of Manganese and 22 Ways It Can Be Bad For You (in excess)
https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/manganese/

[eatyourspinach]

Why not just rely on your diet to avoid the unnecessary risk? There is plenty in leafy greenshttp://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=77

[SurfSteve]

I pretty much live off meat and greens with a little fruit. Like I said when I looked up how much was in the foods I ate I estimated it to be around 20%. None of the foods I eat are on the chart you listed and also it doesn't give serving size and lists it by calories. If I were to add grains in my diet I would come up to 100% but I don't want to do that. I enjoy being grain free. Also as I mentioned supplementing with magnesium interferes with manganese so I probably need a little more than the recommended amount.

The manganese I ordered came yesterday and I licked the tip of my finger and stuck it in the bag. I could feel it instantly but it didn't do the same thing when I took it again today. Gave some to my ex girlfriend today and she said it gave her all kinds of energy but then led to a crash in the evening which is pretty strange. With me it made my vision sharper and my eyes were so moist that I forgot to take my contact lenses out and slept with them in. They were fine in the morning. My skin feels a little softer but the wrinkles are about the same. Seems to still be helping with the contacts. Usually I take them out about this time because they bother my eyes but so far they are fine. I also seem to be thirstier and been drinking more water.

Really too soon to conclude anything. The real proof at least in my mind will be If I'm still taking it in a year or two from now like I do magnesium and potassium that I add to my salt. Might just do the same thing with the manganese.

Haven't read anything about anyone getting too much by supplementing. If you find something like that please post it! Seems to be limited to industrial exposure. Got a feeling it has as much to do with it being different form of manganese as it does the amount.


Here's some videos I watched on manganese. I put the third one in because it's the only one that talks about and agrees with my suspicions about the different forms of manganese, recommending to only take chelated manganese because elemental manganese is toxic.

[eatyourspinach]

So what you're saying is that you'd rather take a supplement which you are concerned about the potential risks of rather than just eat a few extra cups of leafy greens? You could even blend them and drink them, but that is up to you.

[eatyourspinach]

I pretty much live off meat and greens with a little fruit. Like I said when I looked up how much was in the foods I ate I estimated it to be around 20%. None of the foods I eat are on the chart you listed and also it doesn't give serving size and lists it by calories.

scroll down





World's Healthiest Foods ranked as quality sources of
manganese
Food Serving
Size Cals Amount
(mg) DRI/DV
(%) Nutrient
Density World's
Healthiest
Foods Rating
Cloves 2 tsp 11.5 2.53 127 197.8 excellent
Oats 0.25 cup 151.7 1.92 96 11.4 excellent
Brown Rice 1 cup 216.4 1.76 88 7.3 excellent
Garbanzo Beans 1 cup 269.0 1.69 85 5.7 excellent
Spinach 1 cup 41.4 1.68 84 36.5 excellent
Pineapple 1 cup 82.5 1.53 77 16.7 excellent
Collard Greens 1 cup 62.7 0.97 49 13.9 excellent
Cinnamon 2 tsp 12.8 0.91 46 63.8 excellent
Raspberries 1 cup 64.0 0.82 41 11.5 excellent
Black Pepper 2 tsp 14.6 0.74 37 45.7 excellent
Beet Greens 1 cup 38.9 0.74 37 17.1 excellent
Swiss Chard 1 cup 35.0 0.58 29 14.9 excellent
Strawberries 1 cup 46.1 0.56 28 10.9 excellent
Kale 1 cup 36.4 0.54 27 13.4 excellent
Turnip Greens 1 cup 28.8 0.49 25 15.3 excellent
Mustard Greens 1 cup 36.4 0.38 19 9.4 excellent
Summer Squash 1 cup 36.0 0.38 19 9.5 excellent
Turmeric 2 tsp 15.6 0.34 17 19.6 excellent
Sea Vegetables 1 TBS 10.8 0.31 16 25.7 excellent
Garlic 6 cloves 26.8 0.30 15 10.1 excellent
Basil 0.50 cup 4.9 0.24 12 44.3 excellent
Bok Choy 1 cup 20.4 0.24 12 10.6 excellent
Pumpkin Seeds 0.25 cup 180.3 1.47 74 7.3 very good
Tempeh 4 oz 222.3 1.46 73 5.9 very good
Rye 0.33 cup 188.5 1.44 72 6.9 very good
Soybeans 1 cup 297.6 1.42 71 4.3 very good
Tofu 4 oz 164.4 1.34 67 7.3 very good
Barley 0.33 cup 217.1 1.19 60 4.9 very good
Quinoa 0.75 cup 222.0 1.17 59 4.7 very good
Wheat 1 cup 151.1 1.11 56 6.6 very good
Walnuts 0.25 cup 196.2 1.02 51 4.7 very good
Sweet Potato 1 cup 180.0 0.99 50 5.0 very good
Lentils 1 cup 229.7 0.98 49 3.8 very good
Lima Beans 1 cup 216.2 0.97 49 4.0 very good
Navy Beans 1 cup 254.8 0.96 48 3.4 very good
Sesame Seeds 0.25 cup 206.3 0.89 45 3.9 very good
Green Peas 1 cup 115.7 0.72 36 5.6 very good
Buckwheat 1 cup 154.6 0.68 34 4.0 very good
Beets 1 cup 74.8 0.55 28 6.6 very good
Almonds 0.25 cup 132.2 0.53 27 3.6 very good
Blueberries 1 cup 84.4 0.50 25 5.3 very good
Winter Squash 1 cup 75.8 0.38 19 4.5 very good
Cranberries 1 cup 46.0 0.36 18 7.0 very good
Green Beans 1 cup 43.8 0.36 18 7.4 very good
Brussels Sprouts 1 cup 56.2 0.35 18 5.6 very good
Flaxseeds 2 TBS 74.8 0.35 18 4.2 very good
Cabbage 1 cup 43.5 0.33 17 6.8 very good
Broc**** 1 cup 54.6 0.30 15 4.9 very good
Asparagus 1 cup 39.6 0.28 14 6.4 very good
Leeks 1 cup 32.2 0.26 13 7.3 very good
Tomatoes 1 cup 32.4 0.21 11 5.8 very good
Fennel 1 cup 27.0 0.17 9 5.7 very good
Cauliflower 1 cup 28.5 0.16 8 5.0 very good
Romaine Lettuce 2 cups 16.0 0.15 8 8.4 very good
Miso 1 TBS 34.2 0.15 8 3.9 very good
Cumin 2 tsp 15.8 0.14 7 8.0 very good
Mushrooms, Crimini 1 cup 15.8 0.10 5 5.7 very good
Oregano 2 tsp 5.3 0.10 5 17.0 very good
Mustard Seeds 2 tsp 20.3 0.10 5 4.4 very good
Celery 1 cup 16.2 0.10 5 5.6 very good
Dried Peas 1 cup 231.3 0.78 39 3.0 good
Pinto Beans 1 cup 244.5 0.77 39 2.8 good
Black Beans 1 cup 227.0 0.76 38 3.0 good
Kidney Beans 1 cup 224.8 0.76 38 3.0 good
Peanuts 0.25 cup 206.9 0.71 36 3.1 good
Sunflower Seeds 0.25 cup 204.4 0.68 34 3.0 good
Cashews 0.25 cup 221.2 0.66 33 2.7 good
Millet 1 cup 207.1 0.47 24 2.0 good
Potatoes 1 cup 160.9 0.38 19 2.1 good
Banana 1 medium 105.0 0.32 16 2.7 good
Onions 1 cup 92.4 0.32 16 3.1 good
Carrots 1 cup 50.0 0.17 9 3.1 good
Mushrooms, Shiitake 0.50 cup 40.6 0.15 8 3.3 good
Corn 1 each 73.9 0.13 7 1.6 good
Eggplant 1 cup 34.6 0.11 6 2.9 good
Bell Peppers 1 cup 28.5 0.10 5 3.2 good
Peppermint 2 TBS 5.3 0.09 5 15.2 good
Soy Sauce 1 TBS 10.8 0.09 5 7.5 good
Chili Peppers 2 tsp 15.2 0.09 5 5.3 good
Cucumber 1 cup 15.6 0.08 4 4.6 good
Thyme 2 TBS 4.8 0.08 4 14.8 good
Kiwifruit 1 2 inches 42.1 0.07 4 1.5 good
Figs 1 medium 37.0 0.06 3 1.5 good
Dill 0.50 cup 1.9 0.06 3 28.3 good
Parsley 0.50 cup 10.9 0.05 3 4.1 good
World's Healthiest
Foods Rating Rule
excellent DRI/DV>=75% OR
Density>=7.6 AND DRI/DV>=10%
very good DRI/DV>=50% OR
Density>=3.4 AND DRI/DV>=5%
good DRI/DV>=25% OR
Density>=1.5 AND DRI/DV>=2.5%

[OT2000]

[SurfSteve]

So what you're saying is that you'd rather take a supplement which you are concerned about the potential risks of rather than just eat a few extra cups of leafy greens? You could even blend them and drink them, but that is up to you.

Just got through making a big pot of kale in paprika sauce and couldn't resist adding a pinch of manganese gluconae to it in your honor!

What I'm saying is that I'd actually like to look into it, gather as much information as I can on it, make a few forum posts, maybe even give it a try first and then decide for myself if supplementing with some additional manganese on a long term basis is for me.

The FDA recommends 2mg of total elemental manganese and the upper limit recommended by health practitioners and on some supplement labels is 11mg which is only possible to attain on a vegetarian diet extremely rich in manganese. From what I've learned so far my best guess is the true ideal elemental total is somewhere in between, perhaps towards the upper recommendation, in chelated form; and that no amount of pure elemental manganese from industrial sources is beneficial.

[SurfSteve]

Have you asked yourself why upper limit of Manganese is 11mg/day?

I realize this was a bit long, so let me summarize for you what this indicates: the figure of 11mg/day was based on a single survey of 30-year old Canadian women in which they approximated how much Maganese was consumed in an average diet. These figures ranged from 0.7-10.9mg/day. Based on the fact that these people were “healthy”, they concluded that 11mg should be the recommended upper limit.

What this means is that if you are a Canadian woman who consumes 0.7-10.9mg of Manganese per day, then you should be fine. What is the upper limit of Manganese for other people? Is 15mg/day okay? Is 20mg/day okay? We have no freakin’ idea.

https://discourse.soylent.com/t/have...-11mg-day/7660

[eatyourspinach]

manganese is also a pollutant and can be neurotoxic

[SurfSteve]

Yes. Elemental manganese is a pollutant and toxic to the body. So is chlorine. Chlorine combined with sodium becomes salt, an essential mineral that we can not live without.

Manganese is essential for the metabolization of cholesterol, carbohydrates, and protein.

[eatyourspinach]

Yes. Elemental manganese is a pollutant and toxic to the body. So is chlorine. Chlorine combined with sodium becomes salt, an essential mineral that we can not live without.

Manganese is essential for the metabolization of cholesterol, carbohydrates, and protein.

People aren't supplementing with chlorine and you asked why the UL is 11mg, the UL is 11mg because you don't want to risk neurotoxicity.

[SurfSteve]

Manganese is "an essential nutrient that’s usually tied to iron and other minerals, manganese plays a role in numerous chemical processes, including synthesis of nutrients like cholesterol, carbohydrates and proteins. Also importantly, manganese is involved in the formation of bone mass and helps balance hormones naturally that affect nearly every aspect of health."
https://draxe.com/manganese/

When the bag of manganese gluconate I ordered had arrived, I licked the tip of my finger and stuck it in the bag. As soon as I licked it off I noticed an instant head change. Since supplementing with manganese by adding it to my salt I've seen a noticeable decrease of wrinkles in my skin, a better attitude, faster recovery and less aching in my joints.

Perhaps as an athlete I sweat a lot more than the average person and need to replace more minerals. What I tried to say in my last post was that all forms of manganese are not the same. I doubt I would have had experienced any benefit at all and maybe even experienced some harm had I licked the same amount of manganese off a manganese coated welding rod just as a person who need salt would not benefit from drinking some bleach and then ingesting some sodium separately.

You believe a person should be able to get all the minerals they need from food. Fine. I get that but not all of us have access to vegetables that have been grown organically in mineral rich soils and there's probably a lot more people out there besides me that would benefit from supplementing additional minerals.

[SurfSteve]

People aren't supplementing with chlorine and you asked why the UL is 11mg, the UL is 11mg because you don't want to risk neurotoxicity.

Also:
I wasn't asking why the upper limit of manganese was considered to be 11 mg a day.

I was trying to explain: The 11 mg did not come from a study of toxicity; it came from an assumption. A group of healthy women were studied and the most manganese any of them obtained from their diet was 11 mg; so an assumption was formed based on the study that this was the upper healthy limit. Had the study been performed a hundred years ago, before manganese became depleted from our soils due to commercial farming, the same women would have been consuming much more manganese in their diets from eating the exact same foods.

As long as everyone is making assumptions why not assume athletes and bodybuilders require more manganese than people who sit on the couch and watch tv all day?

manganese plays a role in numerous chemical processes, including synthesis of nutrients like cholesterol, carbohydrates and proteins. Also importantly, manganese is involved in the formation of bone mass and helps balance hormones naturally that affect nearly every aspect of health."
https://draxe.com/manganese/

[eatyourspinach]

I was trying to explain: The 11 mg did not come from a study of toxicity; it came from an assumption. A group of healthy women were studied and the most manganese any of them obtained from their diet was 11 mg; so an assumption was formed based on the study that this was the upper healthy limit. Had the study been performed a hundred years ago, before manganese became depleted from our soils due to commercial farming, the same women would have been consuming much more manganese in their diets from eating the exact same foods.

so you don't think it has anything to do with it's potential presence in drinking water? https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0920074013.htm

[SurfSteve]

so you don't think it has anything to do with it's potential presence in drinking water? https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0920074013.htm

Depends on what you mean by it. 11mg per day upper limit (no) or manganese toxicity (yes)? If the data on the study I mentioned is correct it has nothing to do with 11mg per day that is sworn in stone by some to be the upper limit because there was no mention of it in drinking water in the study. My guess would be that none of the women in the study had toxic levels of inorganic manganese in their drinking water, so it was not considered.

People unfortunate enough to have toxic levels of inorganic, elemental manganese should not drink the water. It has been my opinion that inorganic, elemental manganese is toxic at any level and should be avoided. Elemental manganese is toxic and is treated as waste by the body. Hopefully it is excreted by the liver; but if it's not who knows what the body does when it can no longer eliminate it. It is probably stored by the body in areas like the brain. If it is possible for a person to both suffer from iron toxicity and be deficient in iron at the same time, perhaps the same thing is true about manganese.

I started this topic in hopes of finding more out about the truth of manganese; not to get into an argument. I was up front from the very start in admitting manganese toxicity was of greater concern to most people than manganese deficiency. Obviously there are people that have symptoms of both at the same time and I was hoping to get to the bottom of it. It seems like the different forms of manganese have been ignored by virtually everybody. I think that is unfortunate.

[eatyourspinach]

Depends on what you mean by it. 11mg per day upper limit (no) or manganese toxicity (yes)? If the data on the study I mentioned is correct it has nothing to do with 11mg per day that is sworn in stone by some to be the upper limit because there was no mention of it in drinking water in the study. My guess would be that none of the women in the study had toxic levels of inorganic manganese in their drinking water, so it was not considered.

People unfortunate enough to have toxic levels of inorganic, elemental manganese should not drink the water. It has been my opinion that inorganic, elemental manganese is toxic at any level and should be avoided. Elemental manganese is toxic and is treated as waste by the body. Hopefully it is excreted by the liver; but if it's not who knows what the body does when it can no longer eliminate it. It is probably stored by the body in areas like the brain. If it is possible for a person to both suffer from iron toxicity and be deficient in iron at the same time, perhaps the same thing is true about manganese.

I started this topic in hopes of finding more out about the truth of manganese; not to get into an argument. I was up front from the very start in admitting manganese toxicity was of greater concern to most people than manganese deficiency. Obviously there are people that have symptoms of both at the same time and I was hoping to get to the bottom of it. It seems like the different forms of manganese have been ignored by virtually everybody. I think that is unfortunate.

Yes and if you read the first link I shared it says "In 2001, The National Academy of Sciences (NAS) established a Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) of 11 mg for total daily manganese intake for adults 19 and older. This level was based on the uppermost amount of manganese found in the diet of healthy people.. While we support the establishment of this UL recommendation from the NAS, we would also point out that it was not based on evidence about unwanted health consequences if this dietary level was exceeded. In other words, the NAS did not have evidence about health problems that might occur if dietary intake of manganese routinely exceeded this 11 mg level. The NAS only had evidence that no such problems had been observed in U.S. adults whose average daily manganese intake was as high as 11 mg. So the NAS adopted this 11 mg UL level to err on the conservative side in its public health recommendation.

Dietary manganese levels can be surprisingly high in some populations. In fact, unlike most required dietary minerals, it is not especially difficult to exceed the UL of 11 mg with very reasonable dietary intake. For example, if you eat one serving from each of our Top 10 manganese-rich foods in one day, you will exceed the manganese UL. As described above, we are not aware of any reason to deliberately avoid manganese-rich foods, provided that you consume an overall balanced diet with optimal intake of other minerals and do not have health problems that might compromise your body's handling of these minerals,"

I was genuinely curious if you thought it had anything to do with it being in water since you have looked more into it than I have.

[SurfSteve]

OK. So basically we are both on the same page and agree that the upper limit of 11mg is based on a study from people that haven't done their homework.

Yes. As far as I know, manganese in the water is inorganic and the harmful type just like the stuff that is mined and the stuff on welding rods. I am also pretty sure that since no distinction between sources had been made, that there is nothing to prevent supplement companies from using this type of manganese in their supplements and that a lot of one a day like supplements are probably doing just that.