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  1. #1
    Registered User kesp74's Avatar
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    Feedback on my 2 day per week routine for a busy bod please

    Hi,

    I've been reading lately that there are benefits to training each muscle group twice per week - once heavy and once light.

    But i'm extremely time poor and can only manage two weight sessions per week so i was wondering if the following might work:

    Day 1:
    Heavy full-body super sets.
    Something like

    squats/up right rows
    bench press/ bent over rows
    bicep curls/skull crushers
    weighted crunches/calf raises
    Rep scheme: 3 x 6-8

    Day 2:
    As above but with a rep scheme more like 3 x 10-12


    What are your thoughts? Enough to make a difference?
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    Hey there...

    You always want to do at least twice a week each muscle group... heavy and light isn't part of the science on the topic though.

    Your routine is MAYBE serviceable, but there are much better options.

    I have a bunch of time saving tips and stuff in bookmark here, but it would help if you told me how much time you have to workout twice a week so I can pick the ones that would be most useful to you.
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    Registered User kesp74's Avatar
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    Hey,

    No more than an hour per sesh including warm up/down really.

    For a while i was doing:

    > day 1
    squats/chest press/shoulder press/dips/calf raises

    > day 2
    Pull ups/deads/bent over rows/bicep curls/weighted crunches

    rep scheme 3 x 8-12

    and more recently in an effort to train each muscle group twice per week

    > day 1
    squats/chest press/bent over rows/dips/calf raises

    > day 2
    Pull ups/deads/shoulder press/bicep curls/weighted crunches

    rep scheme 3 x 8-12

    One issue with this though is if i can only manage one session i miss half my body.

    with the superset full body no muscle groups get missed even if i can only make one session.
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    I suggest getting some resistance bands + door anchor and doing curls, crushers, and toe raises / ab work at home... will give you more time in the gym if needed.

    My two options for you are

    1: Do allpro 2 day variant (with chinups instead of curls). Do each day as 3 sets of heavy, not medium or light
    2: Do Fierce 5 regularly, but only 2 days, and re-order the exercises to accommodate 'superish' sets... finish any accessory work you miss at home with resistance bands. (Curls, crushers, abs, calves, could even do face pulls)

    I haven't contacted Davis about increasing volume on a 2 day variant of F5, but I'm guessing you would eventually need to lower the weight and up the reps to 8-12 for a lot of the exercises.

    ICF 5x5 twice a week would be ideal, but I doubt you could do that in an hour... maybe if you had really good conditioning, or did stuff at home.



    Here is some advice I gave on another thread:
    Originally Posted by me
    When on strength routines I started doing what I call 'superish' sets... basically you take 3-4 minutes to do 2 sets of 2 different exercises (one set per exercise)

    So for example one that I did a lot would be:

    Row Set 1
    (rest 90s)
    OHP Set 1
    (rest 90s)
    Row Set 2

    .. and so on... that way you're still getting 3 minutes to let your muscle group recover... this doesn't work as well if you don't already have a good work capacity / aren't doing much cardio... it's also more difficult for things like squat and deadlift, but you could do like a light weight exercise that won't mess up your other compounds much:

    Deadlift Set 1
    60s
    Reverse Fly
    60s
    Reverse Fly
    60s
    Deadlift set 2


    Of course you can do traditional supersets as well, but the second exercise IMO tends to get the shaft of it.


    Other things I liked to do...

    Calf raise / ab work
    Leg press / leg curl
    Face pull / crushers


    Now that I'm doing AllPros, there is no time for supersets of any kind, as after that 90s you are doing your next work set. I will in that time though, start setting up the next station... like my gym has combined squat rack and deadlift platform... so I stay there for half the workout...

    So, finished first set of SLDL, set up bar for squat and do stretches... finish second set of SLDL, move into squat warmups then finish first set of squat... while resting rerack the deadlift weights... finished with squat, drop the pins and move to rowing... finished first set of rows, set up the bench press.. etc etc etc





    I think if you were focused, went at a good time of the day at gym, and with a bit of practice and some cardio, you could do Fierce 5 (at least the compounds) in the same time as AllPro. Can always get some home equipment (or make your own cheap) and do stuff like curls, crushers, calf raise, and abs at home in 5-10 minutes, just focus on getting a good pump.. resistance bands are great for that.
    Last edited by fluidZ; 04-16-2018 at 09:26 AM.
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    Thanks fluidz,

    I reckon fierce5 is more realistic time wise especially if i save abs,curls etc for a home session.

    And it's similar to what i've been doing recently where i've been doing:

    > day 1
    squats/chest press/bent over rows/dips/calf raises

    > day 2
    Pull ups/deads/shoulder press/bicep curls/weighted crunches

    RE: reps and rest time

    I'm not sure i understand that rep scheme in the advice you gave on the other thread.

    I've also read recently that as an ectomorph i should be resting longer, say 3 minutes, between sets.

    Since doing that ive been able to hit the right number of reps each set. when i used to rest just 1-2 minutes i'd rarely make the reps on set 2 and virtually never on set 3
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    Originally Posted by kesp74 View Post
    Thanks fluidz,

    I reckon fierce5 is more realistic time wise especially if i save abs,curls etc for a home session.

    And it's similar to what i've been doing recently where i've been doing:

    > day 1
    squats/chest press/bent over rows/dips/calf raises

    > day 2
    Pull ups/deads/shoulder press/bicep curls/weighted crunches

    RE: reps and rest time

    I'm not sure i understand that rep scheme in the advice you gave on the other thread.

    I've also read recently that as an ectomorph i should be resting longer, say 3 minutes, between sets.

    Since doing that ive been able to hit the right number of reps each set. when i used to rest just 1-2 minutes i'd rarely make the reps on set 2 and virtually never on set 3
    I think AllPro will be the better bet... the base program takes about 45 minutes, so adding one set to each exercise shouldn't let it exceed an hour... especially if you do some stretches and set up the next station , rerack previous station, etc during your rest period (just make sure you ARE resting!)


    If you're confused about anything related to AllPro, post in the AllPro thread which is stickied... NightAnole will take care of you.

    The 2 day variant is:


    Workout 1:

    - all exercises are done for 3 working sets
    - use the 'heavy day' weight
    - still keep 90 second rest between working sets

    Workout 2:

    - same as workout 1

    Additionally for balance reasons:

    - Do pull/chinups instead of curls



    Fierce 5 doesn't have an official 2 day variant , and completing it in under an hour will be a challenge, especially when the weights start increasing....
    Last edited by fluidZ; 04-16-2018 at 10:52 AM.
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    Originally Posted by kesp74 View Post
    Hi,

    I've been reading lately that there are benefits to training each muscle group twice per week - once heavy and once light.

    But i'm extremely time poor and can only manage two weight sessions per week so i was wondering if the following might work:

    Day 1:
    Heavy full-body super sets.
    Something like

    squats/up right rows
    bench press/ bent over rows
    bicep curls/skull crushers
    weighted crunches/calf raises
    Rep scheme: 3 x 6-8

    Day 2:
    As above but with a rep scheme more like 3 x 10-12


    What are your thoughts? Enough to make a difference?
    Well, you have a squat and some push/pull stuff, but no hinge or loaded carries, or anti- rotation/extension/lateral flexion movements. People usually only realize how important loaded carries are after they do a hundred yards with half their body weight in each hand.
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    @fluidz

    From experience i think i'll struggle to maintain the reps on sets 2 and 3 with only 90 secs rest

    What about saving the bicep curls and calf raises for another day and extending the rest to keep the overall time down?

    @supramax

    I didn't realise loaded carries were so important. Never see them mentioned in the programs i've read.

    Will see if I can work them in on another day. Cheers
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by kesp74 View Post
    @fluidz

    From experience i think i'll struggle to maintain the reps on sets 2 and 3 with only 90 secs rest
    Not if you use a light enough weight. The whole point of AllPro's is getting volume in... if you drop weight 10lb for upper or 20lb from lower from what you're used, you can add another set, but still be getting more volume in...

    Volume = hypertrophy

    What about saving the bicep curls and calf raises for another day and extending the rest to keep the overall time down?
    You need to do Chinups / Pullups instead of curls if looking at AllPro... You have to do the 90 second rest, it's the entire basis of the program... it's not a strength / power routine... it's solely based on volume and metabolic stress. (You will of course get stronger though)

    you can do calves + abs on a separate day, but if you do try to do chinups the day after doing BoR your chins are going to be a lot weaker.



    Farmers walks are people who are working grip + trap strength... you get plenty of that from rowing and deadlifts,.. adding a bit of grip work is fine but not necessary.
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    Ok so volume is more important for hypertrophy than failure? I thought it was all about pushing to failure.

    Or am i being overly simplistic?
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    Originally Posted by kesp74 View Post
    Ok so volume is more important for hypertrophy than failure? I thought it was all about pushing to failure.

    Or am i being overly simplistic?
    Science has repeatedly shown training to failure is not necessary.. indeed, it's EXTREMELY taxing.

    I'm not the science expert around here (at least not when it comes to bodybuilding). I used to train hard, to failure, for everything, all the time... when I actually started lifting seriously last year though, I did my research and went through a bunch of articles and journals on the topic...

    Basically, things that make you tired and sore make you feel great about the quality of your workout session, but it really comes down to volume and progressive overload.. adding weight to the bar (like 10lb, 20lb, etc) or adding total poundage lifted each week (like 100,000, 110,000) are the two biggest factors... outside of rest and nutrition.

    Now, advanced / elite lifters have difficulty adding weight and volume, so they may utilize other strategies to make exercises harder, and going to failure is one of them. (Not that you should avoid going to failure on an exercise.. I do all the time, it's just not my goal, if that makes sense).



    however, too much volume isn't a good thing either... and for beginners you really don't need much to spark that growth... hammering away at the start is a good way to set a huge road block in the future... because your body will be desensitized to training stimulus, and you'll have to spend hours and hours in the gym just to elicit that response.



    On to a separate issue, if you want to be more serious in the future, 2 hours a week is likely not going to cut it... at least not without a third training day. But you don't have to worry about that problem now... you should be fine to get started. If you foresee time always being a huge issue for you, then you should consider saving for some home equipment... a basic barbell + few hundred pounds in weight should last you a good long time.



    Everybody gets really sore at the start of a program... and then later on they might try something with more exercises / volume and get sore again, and think "hey, I should be doing this instead!" But really, soreness is just caused by doing something new the body isn't used to. This is why most DOMS goes away after a month or so of training... but if you take a week or two off for vacation, it comes back again.

    Since generally only do minor to modest increases in weight per week, or in total volume, generally people do not get much if any DOMS when working out consistently



    This article is by a scientist who talks about a lot of the current research on many topics, including to failure:

    https://bayesianbodybuilding.com/opt...form=hootsuite
    Last edited by fluidZ; 04-17-2018 at 08:15 AM.
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    More than happy to try a different approach.

    If i'm not aiming for failure on each set, is there a recommended % of 1 rep max i should be working with?
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    Originally Posted by kesp74 View Post
    More than happy to try a different approach.

    If i'm not aiming for failure on each set, is there a recommended % of 1 rep max i should be working with?
    You should follow the program's progression guide. As stated in the article, anywhere from 30-100 %1rm is good for building muscle.... most programs are somewhere in the range of %60-80.

    If you follow the program though, all of that is worked out for you.... just need to pick a weight that you can complete the sets / reps on in the given time frame. As you progress, you will of course hit failure on those last reps, and eventually you won't be able to keep up with the progression, and will have to repeat a cycle, or lower weight then work back up (this is a good thing). So, it's not like you won't be hitting any hard sets...

    Keep in mind form is important.... a good reason to not start out with a heavy weight that you're struggling with the first week...
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    Originally Posted by fluidZ View Post
    ...Farmers walks are people who are working grip + trap strength... you get plenty of that from rowing and deadlifts,.. adding a bit of grip work is fine but not necessary.
    I usually like your postings, but you haven't got a clue on this one. I guess if you go light and not very far, you'll only feel it in your forearms and traps. Pick up half your body weight in each hand and walk a hundred yards. You'll realize every part of your body, your core, shoulders, delts, glutes, hamstrings, your heart and your lungs have been worked. That's just a precursor of how you'll feel the next day.
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    Originally Posted by kesp74 View Post
    ...
    @supramax

    I didn't realise loaded carries were so important. Never see them mentioned in the programs i've read.

    Will see if I can work them in on another day. Cheers
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    @supramax
    I like the idea of an all over strength exercise that's also cardio vascular. Looks rewarding

    @fluidZ
    I'm still feeling the F5 at the mo and might give that a try first. The all pro volume just looks too high and time consuming

    Re: f5 supersetting
    How would you pair up exercises? Maybe something like:

    Day 1
    squat/face pulls
    bench/rows
    calves/triceps

    Day 2
    front squat/lat pull downs
    deadlift / over head press
    abs/biceps

    Take on your comments about needing 3 or more sessions per week to progress seriously.

    I train at home already but family and prior cardio commitments mean 2 weight sessions per week is all I can manage right now.

    Occasionally i'll be able to squeeze an extra day in or maybe 2. But I need a routine that means if i can only manage 2 sessions then no body parts get missed. Any extra sessions need to be treated as bonus sessions. Hence why i've been looking at full body workouts
    Last edited by kesp74; 04-18-2018 at 12:13 AM. Reason: clarity
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    I usually like your postings, but you haven't got a clue on this one. I guess if you go light and not very far, you'll only feel it in your forearms and traps. Pick up half your body weight in each hand and walk a hundred yards. You'll realize every part of your body, your core, shoulders, delts, glutes, hamstrings, your heart and your lungs have been worked. That's just a precursor of how you'll feel the next day.
    Thanks for the compliment and appreciate the callout (I'm learning).

    It's just that none of the novice programs have farmer walks, so it's difficult for me to see the great need for them in a program...


    Obviously as you said it's a great functional movement though, and I do them from time to time as well...

    And I used to carry dudes on my back around and up hills... yeah it's a whole body workout lol
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    Originally Posted by kesp74 View Post
    @fluidZ
    I'm still feeling the F5 at the mo and might give that a try first. The all pro volume just looks too high and time consuming

    Re: f5 supersetting
    How would you pair up exercises? Maybe something like:

    Again I recommend doing "superish" sets as I call them... take 3-4 minutes and rest 90 seconds between exercises.


    You will be able to do this more easily at the start, when the weights are light... you may even be able to do it with deads + squats...


    However, later on when things get heavy, it will be much more difficult to perform.



    Also, it kind of depends on your gym size, traffic, and layout... So it's going to be up to you to figure out which ones you can feasibly do.


    My gym has combined platform + squat rack, so I can stay there and go pretty quickly...
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    Ok so you think that pairing i suggested is sensible?

    Day 1
    squat/face pulls
    bench/rows
    calves/triceps

    Day 2
    front squat/lat pull downs
    deadlift / over head press
    abs/biceps

    re: Also, it kind of depends on your gym size, traffic, and layout

    I'm at home using free weights and a bench that can be adjusted for incline press.

    Only time i really feel like i miss gym equipment is when it comes to doing barbell back squats
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    Originally Posted by kesp74 View Post
    Ok so you think that pairing i suggested is sensible?

    Day 1
    squat/face pulls
    bench/rows
    calves/triceps

    Day 2
    front squat/lat pull downs
    deadlift / over head press
    abs/biceps

    re: Also, it kind of depends on your gym size, traffic, and layout

    I'm at home using free weights and a bench that can be adjusted for incline press.

    Only time i really feel like i miss gym equipment is when it comes to doing barbell back squats
    I'll give you my 2 cents. I don't super set squats with anything. I follow them with hanging knee/leg raises to work the abs and decompress the spine. It's important to initiate them with a posterior pelvic tilt. Bench and rows is good. I (now) do floor presses super set with a suspension trainer inverted row/face pull combo. Lat pull downs are better super set with the OHP. Do agonist/antagonist where you can. https://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Fu...es_to.11.aspxI I don't do calves or triceps and I see nothing wrong with abs/biceps.
    Become brilliant at the basics. Everything else will work itself out.

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    Originally Posted by fluidZ View Post
    Thanks for the compliment and appreciate the callout (I'm learning).

    It's just that none of the novice programs have farmer walks, so it's difficult for me to see the great need for them in a program...


    Obviously as you said it's a great functional movement though, and I do them from time to time as well...

    And I used to carry dudes on my back around and up hills... yeah it's a whole body workout lol
    We're good. Like I said: "People usually only realize how important loaded carries are after they do a hundred yards with half their body weight in each hand."
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    K thanks guys,

    Really useful info especially the stuff on not having to fail all the time. Glad i know not to waste time on 'light' sessions now too.

    Did a light full body super set on monday (first time) but plenty of time left this week to get a couple of f5's in.

    And I'll try and get on to those loaded carries next week for a mix up and cardio alternative.
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    Originally Posted by kesp74 View Post
    ... And I'll try and get on to those loaded carries next week for a mix up and cardio alternative.
    Here's a good intro for you: https://www.t-nation.com/training/farmer-s-walk-cure
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