Training for STRENGTH vs. SIZE

[AkiraFudo]

Inb4100000th post

[Elramos26]

Good read. Bump

[bullybot]

MYTH: Low reps is for strength, high reps is for size.

Once beyond the novice stage, you will find that you need more and more volume to keep the results coming. THIS is where problems with lower rep sets will make themselves apparent.

What's the definition of novice stage/how do I know if I am past it? Thanks

[SuffolkPunch]

What's the definition of novice stage/how do I know if I am past it? Thanks

Novices can make progress in their lifting every workout or every week. Intermediate progress is slower. Note that this assumes you are doing everything correctly. There are many other reasons why you might not progress as quickly as you can.

There are some exrx strength standards tables (google it) which can give an idea on expected strength levels for different levels. There is obviously some debate about this but they can be viewed as broad averages for athletes.

[machine54]

Thanks for the post lots of good info. I want to build strength and am not focusing on size as I am actually trying to lean out for more definition.

[SuffolkPunch]

Thanks for the post lots of good info. I want to build strength and am not focusing on size as I am actually trying to lean out for more definition.

Definition = muscle size + low bodyfat.

So you should still target hypertrophy training - but then reduce calorie intake too.

[DieLardo]

Good read, gone are the days when I used to go heavy as fook and only manage 4-6 reps max per set. Injuries are much less now and growth far better

[Pilot5299]

[QUOTE=SuffolkPunch;1545945481]MYTH: Low reps is for strength, high reps is for size.

Although this contains a grain of truth, it leads to wrong thinking - the classic problem we get on this forum is the legion of novices who don't want to do novice routines because they contain 5 rep sets ... which are "for strength" not "for mass". This is (mostly) incorrect.

Strength and size are intertwined and it's worth taking a few minutes to understand how...

1) What is SIZE? - this is easy enough, it's how big the muscle is. A larger muscle contains more fibres (myofibrils) and more fluid (sarcoplasm). Note that these two components tend to stay in the same proportions to one another regardless of whether the muscle shrinks or grows - and regardless of how you train.

2) What is STRENGTH? A simple measure is the peak force a muscle can produce. This will determine how much weight you can lift in a 1-rep-maximum effort attempt for a simple movement.
There are actually 2 components to strength:
- The size of the muscle - more fibers means more ability to contract and produce force. Size is the most important factor for strength.
- Neural factors - how well your brain coordinates the firing pattern of all the fibres in your muscle (or lots of muscles together in the case of a complex movement).


Hey guys, Suffolk Punch, When talking about strength you say you measure it by a 1-rep-maximum in a single movement, but do you think this is the best way to measure strength? Can't some people have more or less of different types of muscle fibers? Can genetics play a role in this? Also with the single movement this is a high-velocity muskuloskeletal movement which can be considered very dangerous and a risky way to "measure" strength. I personally do not know the best or correct way to measure pure strength but to me, one rep maximums in a ballistic movement doesn't seem the most effective or safest. What do you guys think about how strength is and has been measured by one rep maximums?

[TolerantLactose]

Also with the single movement this is a high-velocity muskuloskeletal movement which can be considered very dangerous and a risky way to "measure" strength. I personally do not know the best or correct way to measure pure strength but to me, one rep maximums in a ballistic movement doesn't seem the most effective or safest. What do you guys think about how strength is and has been measured by one rep maximums?

You're not training for strength or size with these kinds of movements.

[SuffolkPunch]

Hey guys, Suffolk Punch, When talking about strength you say you measure it by a 1-rep-maximum in a single movement, but do you think this is the best way to measure strength? Can't some people have more or less of different types of muscle fibers? Can genetics play a role in this? Also with the single movement this is a high-velocity muskuloskeletal movement which can be considered very dangerous and a risky way to "measure" strength. I personally do not know the best or correct way to measure pure strength but to me, one rep maximums in a ballistic movement doesn't seem the most effective or safest. What do you guys think about how strength is and has been measured by one rep maximums?

To me, strength is the ability to produce force - so maximum strength is the maximum force you can produce.

I mentioned that this should be in a 'simple' movement in an effort to rule out technique which can make a huge difference in a complex lift like a squat. Researchers will test strength using something really simple like a max effort leg extension - with thigh strapped down to prevent cheating.

Yes, fiber types (which are genetically determined) make a difference - those with more slow twitch will simply not be as strong. You have to compare yourself to yourself to gauge progress if you are training for strength.

Ballistic movements exhibit power (force*velocity) rather than peak strength (just force) which is slightly different. Again, stick to simple movements where you can apply force throughout the entire range of motion (for example a deadlift, not a power clean) - and then you can use enough resistance to prevent excessive speed development so it's strength not power you are measuring.

[Nwlifter]

When talking about strength you say you measure it by a 1-rep-maximum in a single movement, but do you think this is the best way to measure strength?

That 'is' strength. Total maximum force.

Can't some people have more or less of different types of muscle fibers?

Yes, we all vary in our muscle fiber 'speed endurance' characteristics. Which is mostly influenced by previous training. But that matters not for 'strength'. How fast a fiber can contract doesn't alter it's force potential. Force potential of a fiber is directly correlated with it's 'size', the number of fibrils within the fiber, this determines how many crossbridges in parallel that can attach. The only reason faster fibers produce more 'force' is they usually are larger. A fast fiber can produce more 'power' (speed strength) due to it being able to contract literally 'faster'. But pure strength/force is determined by size.

Can genetics play a role in this?

Genetics for fiber type is a 'starting point', training influences them the most (listen to some Andy Galpin podcasts, the number one researcher in this field currently.
https://renaissanceperiodization.com...ounded-debate/

Also with the single movement this is a high-velocity muskuloskeletal movement which can be considered very dangerous and a risky way to "measure" strength. I personally do not know the best or correct way to measure pure strength but to me, one rep maximums in a ballistic movement doesn't seem the most effective or safest. What do you guys think about how strength is and has been measured by one rep maximums?

1RM, fast? Ballistic?
1RM is sloooow, cannot be ballistic and max strength.

But unless you need to know your 1RM, no need to ever risk it anyway if it concerns you, as far as muscle hypertrophy is concerned.

[ezio6]

Good day suffolk punch, thanks for the thread, very informed and gain more knowledge by this thread! Im just wondering about progressive overload, what is the minimum frequency of weight progressive overload in your opinion? Is it weekly? Monthly? Daily? Thanks

[SuffolkPunch]

Good day suffolk punch, thanks for the thread, very informed and gain more knowledge by this thread! Im just wondering about progressive overload, what is the minimum frequency of weight progressive overload in your opinion? Is it weekly? Monthly? Daily? Thanks

Kind of off topic - may be better to start a new thread. But it depends on the experience level. Novices can add weight every week or even every workout.