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  1. #1
    Registered User bvbellomo's Avatar
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    Batwing to bench ratio

    I hurt my back last spring, and as a result, my bench has gone up, squats have gone down, and deadlifts and rows went to zero. Today is the first day I deadlifted - 135lbs for 1 set of 5 reps. If I feel good 225 on Tuesday then 315 on Thursday and smaller increments to 405. I want to get my deadlift back before I worry too much about rows. In the meanwhile, the only row I feel safe doing is batwing rows.

    I did 2 30lbs dumbells today for 3x12. Considering I also did 225x10 bench, that probably isn't so good. But there are no strength standards or ratios I can find for Batwing rows. So if you do them as part of your routine, I'd really appreciate if you post your estimated 1 rep max bench and typical batwing exercise. I am mostly worried about balance, I want my bench to go up, but not if it means slumped forward posture.
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    I use the chest supported row at about half my bench weight for the same reps/sets (5x5)... My repaired lower back hates barbell rows also... I know that’s not dumbbell batwings but hope that helps some!
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    YOu cant calculate your bench from batwing rows. Thats asinine.

    Slow and steady progression is the best way to come back from injury.
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    Originally Posted by DCSpartan View Post
    YOu cant calculate your bench from batwing rows. Thats asinine.

    Slow and steady progression is the best way to come back from injury.
    I am not trying to calculate my bench. I am trying to assess how imbalanced I am and how long I will need to make slow and steady progression to come back from my injury.

    If PMJonM81x is typical (and I have no way of knowing if he is) and if batwings are equivalent to chest supported rows (they aren't) I should be rowing 112.5lbs (56.25lbs barbells) for 10 reps. I am at 30lbs, so I need to almost double the weight I am using. This will take a long time and a lot of batwings.
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    Registered User kwong486's Avatar
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    Today is the first day I deadlifted - 135lbs for 1 set of 5 reps. If I feel good 225 on Tuesday then 315 on Thursday and smaller increments to 405.
    Lol what? You're going to deadlift incrementally deadlift more everyday? after a back injury?
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    Originally Posted by bvbellomo View Post
    I am not trying to calculate my bench. I am trying to assess how imbalanced I am and how long I will need to make slow and steady progression to come back from my injury.

    If PMJonM81x is typical (and I have no way of knowing if he is) and if batwings are equivalent to chest supported rows (they aren't) I should be rowing 112.5lbs (56.25lbs barbells) for 10 reps. I am at 30lbs, so I need to almost double the weight I am using. This will take a long time and a lot of batwings.
    Idunno, I thought chest-supported rows was applicable for consideration. I get where you're coming from with the question, but it's a somewhat obscure comparison (batwing rows opposite barbell bench press), let alone involving an exercise that I've never really seen discussed here. That being said, I would think that batwing rows are a little sludgier than T-bar machine rows, so that's more benefit of the doubt right there.

    Chest supported rows can be awkward for people as the framing is kinda discreet and doesn't make for the most ample leverage to complete the movement.
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    Registered User bvbellomo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kwong486 View Post
    Lol what? You're going to deadlift incrementally deadlift more everyday? after a back injury?
    Every other day, a year after a back injury, until I feel a little pain or soreness or reach a weight that requires effort. My muscles are strong, they always were, the issue is whether my disc healed enough and my form is fixed enough that I won't reaggravate it.

    I could probably today just pull 405 and do rows too and be fine, but I am not taking that risk. I am tempted never to row or deadlift again, and just work on my squat because I know I won't get hurt again. Being conservative is a compromise, but I don't need to rest longer than 24 hours to feel if I have back pain or not.
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    Registered User kwong486's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bvbellomo View Post
    Every other day, a year after a back injury, until I feel a little pain or soreness or reach a weight that requires effort. My muscles are strong, they always were, the issue is whether my disc healed enough and my form is fixed enough that I won't reaggravate it.

    I could probably today just pull 405 and do rows too and be fine, but I am not taking that risk. I am tempted never to row or deadlift again, and just work on my squat because I know I won't get hurt again. Being conservative is a compromise, but I don't need to rest longer than 24 hours to feel if I have back pain or not.
    My question wasn't geared toward pain. I was more so curious as to why you feel you only need 24 hours to recover from a deadlifting session. Are you literally only doing 1 rep every other day? I'm not suggesting anything medically, because I don't know what the heck is going on with your back, nor do I want to attempt to cure your ailments...I just want to point out that any sane deadlifting program does not involve deadlifts 3+ times a week. If you're playing it conservatively, you'd be doing what you said on a weekly basis, not every other day.
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    Originally Posted by kwong486 View Post
    My question wasn't geared toward pain. I was more so curious as to why you feel you only need 24 hours to recover from a deadlifting session. Are you literally only doing 1 rep every other day? I'm not suggesting anything medically, because I don't know what the heck is going on with your back, nor do I want to attempt to cure your ailments...I just want to point out that any sane deadlifting program does not involve deadlifts 3+ times a week. If you're playing it conservatively, you'd be doing what you said on a weekly basis, not every other day.
    Think of it as me deadlifting 1 set of 5x385lbs, but I am taking days between warm up sets to be extra cautious.

    Back to my original question, kwong - what is the heaviest set of dumbells you can do 1 rep of batwing rows?
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    Originally Posted by bvbellomo View Post
    Think of it as me deadlifting 1 set of 5x385lbs, but I am taking days between warm up sets to be extra cautious.
    It doesnt work like that though!

    No wonder you keep hurting your back. . . .
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    Abandon your deadlift plan or go ahead and make an apt with surgeon for 2-3 months down the road for when you hurt your back again. Either you're doing a really terrible job of explaining what you're doing or your idea is really poor.
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    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    Abandon your deadlift plan or go ahead and make an apt with surgeon for 2-3 months down the road for when you hurt your back again. Either you're doing a really terrible job of explaining what you're doing or your idea is really poor.
    I must be doing a terrible job of explaining, however my injury recover plan is irrelevant to my question. I have a very good physical therapist I've been working with for a year. He is an expert, I am not.

    Why is everyone flaming the injured guy instead of trying to post something helpful relevant to the question I asked?
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    Originally Posted by bvbellomo View Post
    I must be doing a terrible job of explaining, however my injury recover plan is irrelevant to my question. I have a very good physical therapist I've been working with for a year. He is an expert, I am not.

    Why is everyone flaming the injured guy instead of trying to post something helpful relevant to the question I asked?
    Because it sounds terrible. lol.

    There isn't much point in comparing such opposing exercises. An atrophied back will grow very quickly and will catch back up. That and if you're working with a physical therapist they can judge your posture and tell you what does and does not need work. Big part of their job.
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    Excuse my ignorance, but isn't a batwing row just a chest supported row with dumbbells?
    Become brilliant at the basics. Everything else will work itself out.

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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    Excuse my ignorance, but isn't a batwing row just a chest supported row with dumbbells?
    Just a chest supported row??

    Just??
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    Just a chest supported row??

    Just??
    Have I sinned?
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    Excuse my ignorance, but isn't a batwing row just a chest supported row with dumbbells?
    Yeah, so if you do 3 sets of 10 batwings with 20 pound dumbbells, how much can you bench? Thats what OP is asking.

    And it didnt get any better explaining his groundbreaking deadlift program. Keep adding weight every other day until you hurt yourself.
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    Originally Posted by DCSpartan View Post
    Yeah, so if you do 3 sets of 10 batwings with 20 pound dumbbells, how much can you bench? Thats what OP is asking.

    And it didnt get any better explaining his groundbreaking deadlift program. Keep adding weight every other day until you hurt yourself.
    Just to clarify, he was using 30 lb weights.

    And I don't think that his deadlifting was supposed to serve as a workout program, just a test to see how well his back holds up. Since he didn't want to risk it at too heavy a weight, he was going to incrementally raise it from a drastically lower weight than his suspected max and gauge it from there.
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    Originally Posted by DCSpartan View Post
    Yeah, so if you do 3 sets of 10 batwings with 20 pound dumbbells, how much can you bench? Thats what OP is asking...
    Yeah, I got that. He also said:
    Originally Posted by bvbellomo View Post
    ... If PMJonM81x is typical (and I have no way of knowing if he is) and if batwings are equivalent to chest supported rows (they aren't)...
    My question was "... isn't a batwing row just a chest supported row with dumbbells??"
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    I guess I should have asked: "... isn't a batwing row just a chest supported row with dumbbells done properly?"
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    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    Because it sounds terrible. lol.

    There isn't much point in comparing such opposing exercises. An atrophied back will grow very quickly and will catch back up. That and if you're working with a physical therapist they can judge your posture and tell you what does and does not need work. Big part of their job.
    Yes, and the PT did a lot of that with exercise ball and bodyweight exercises. These were great at first - I was really sore and got a lot better at them quickly. The problem is they don't scale, and PTs don't have a lot of experience with people lifting even what I lift. Batwing rows are the only thing I've found that works the same muscles and I can keep adding weight and has no risk of reinjuring my back.
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    Excuse my ignorance, but isn't a batwing row just a chest supported row with dumbbells?
    Yes.
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    Originally Posted by DCSpartan View Post
    Yeah, so if you do 3 sets of 10 batwings with 20 pound dumbbells, how much can you bench? Thats what OP is asking.

    And it didnt get any better explaining his groundbreaking deadlift program. Keep adding weight every other day until you hurt yourself.
    I am asking the reverse, but mostly the same thing. Post numbers for both lifts so I get an idea where people are at with both lifts relative to eachother. Everyone benches, so everyone knows that number. If you batwing row, or want have a set of dumbells and want to help me out, post that number as well.


    I seem to be having trouble explaining how I am getting back to deadlifting, but as I said it really isn't relevant to my question.

    Suppose I want to start after not deadlifting over a year, and I deadlift 135lbs, and it feels like nothing. Do I try 225 in a few minutes? Or call it my workout for the week and try 140lbs next week? Neither makes sense. When I hurt my back, I didn't feel pain until later that day, and the next day I was in serious pain. So if 24 hours (according to the PT) or 48 hours (if I only lift every other day and am being conservative) go by, then I know deadlifting 135lbs didn't reinjure anything. If I had pain, then my whole plan is shot and back to the PT probably for a few weeks before trying again, but in nowhere near as bad a shape as if I would have tried 405 on my first day. If there is no pain, it is like I didn't work out at all - I am not sore, tired or fatigued in any way - the only thing that changed is I have knowledge - so why wait? When I hit a point where I am sore, tired and fatigued, then I am back to a normal routine of deadlifting once a week and adding 5lbs or so each time.
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    Or just start with a sensible light weight and add 10lbs a week.

    But anyway for rows.

    I can strict dB row 30kg for sets of 10.
    I can maybe bench 70 for sets of 10
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    It isn't relevant to my question, but I will try to explain better.

    When you tear the anularis in your late 30's, it no longer has the blood supply to heal properly. There will be some scar tissue, which is weaker than the original tissue and more likely to reinjure. There is no way to know the practical implications - I might still be able to deadlift 1000lbs someday if my muscles get strong enough, or I might not have been able to deadlift 135lbs. Of course, never squating or deadlifting again would be the least risky choice.

    So if I lift 135lbs easily, does that mean I should try 225lbs 5 minutes later? Unfortunately not. Pain is from inflammation, which takes a few hours. I could rupture my disc on 135lbs, then do 225, 315 and try to get 405 without feeling much until the next day. But the only thing I gain by waiting is knowledge, I am not making my muscles stronger or my disc stronger working up slowly. If I deadlift 405lbs today with good form, I am not more or less likely to get hurt doing it than if I work up to it over a few months.

    So if I lift 135lbs and feel good the next day, do I count that as deadlifting for the week and try 140lbs next week? I could, but my muscles didn't do anything, I am not recovering from anything, and I already know I didn't reinjure anything, so what is the point of waiting? In all likelyhood deadlifting 135lbs without reinjury means I can deadlift 405 without reinjury, so I really could go faster. Once I get somewhere around 315lbs I will have some soreness and tightness from muscles, and will probably wait a week to be certain it is muscle and not disc.
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    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    Don't let this distract you from the the fact that in 1966, Al Bundy scored four touchdowns in a single game while playing for the Polk High School Panthers in the 1966 city championship game versus Andrew Johnson High School, including the game-winning touchdown in the final seconds against his old nemesis, Bubba "Spare Tire" Dixon.
    How much could Al batwing row?
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    Originally Posted by DCSpartan View Post
    How much could Al batwing row?
    I'd say 3-4 dozen beers or 9-10 dozen women's shoes.
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