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  1. #511
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    Originally Posted by SnowEh View Post
    But what does the social contract entail? Does it make all of what I listed illegal, some of it or none? Who knows. There's no guarantee that those things would be made illegal in an atheist society. One day something could be legal/illegal and the opposite the next. It's easy to say you would make all those bad things illegal AFTER experiencing living in a society with religious based laws and morals. You have to envision how a society and civilization would develop without the influence of religion otherwise you're just plagiarizing. I don't see it working out well. I personally wouldn't want to live in some extreme religious society either.

    It would be mob rule, the majority over the minority. You could technically enact slavery over a small group if it's what the majority wanted and there would still be order. There won't be chaos coming from the ruling class or the slaves. It may sound extreme but it's happened before. I wouldn't feel comfortable living in that society.

    Essentially an atheist society would be too fluid. Anything can happen. I'd rather have some structure before I decide to participate.
    you don't believe in the american constitution?

    the questions you are asking and the lawless society that you are saying is inevitable in a secular culture suggests you didnt study anything government related ever, and if you were publicly schooled then the system has most woefully failed you.

    i've listed right here in this thread pre-christian societies and even pre-monotheistic societies with fairly complex legal systems. so you are choosing to remain ignorant.
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  2. #512
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    Originally Posted by EdwardTheGreat View Post
    Do you really think that atheists are hoping to murder, steal, rape, etc but are held back by the laws / punishments for doing so? If there was not punishment, it would be a free-for-all? Fukk sakes man.

    Also atheists make up less than 1% of the prison population. Religious men seem to be endlessly troubled and troublesome...
    You think religion has anything to do with them being criminals?
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  3. #513
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    I'm partially reformed RC and wife is sort of Aethist. Kids still have to go to Friday meetings with Fr. Malachey but when their 18 its their choice.
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  4. #514
    Registered User EdwardTheGreat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by halfbreedbrah View Post
    You think religion has anything to do with them being criminals?
    You think that lack of belief in a higher power has anything to do with people's decision to rob, rape, murder?
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  5. #515
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    Originally Posted by EdwardTheGreat View Post
    You think that lack of belief in a higher power has anything to do with people's decision to rob, rape, murder?
    Nope just humans being human. Thought your comment was off base though.
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  6. #516
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    Originally Posted by halfbreedbrah View Post
    Nope just humans being human. Thought your comment was off base though.
    Well, all the religious brahs saying that our morals come solely from religion, yet 99% of prison population is religious...the comment is not really off.
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  7. #517
    Banned halfbreedbrah's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EdwardTheGreat View Post
    Well, all the religious brahs saying that our morals come solely from religion, yet 99% of prison population is religious...the comment is not really off.
    I'm not gonna let you bait me when we know poverty and people thinking they have no opportunities is the main cause.
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  8. #518
    Registered User sy2502's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BlackJack619 View Post
    whatever you think you will become, so if you don't think you're perfect you never will be
    What if I click my heels 3 times?
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  9. #519
    slouching to bethlehem AltarOfPlagues's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by halfbreedbrah View Post
    I'm not gonna let you bait me when we know poverty and people thinking they have no opportunities is the main cause.
    i mean, it's a step in the right direction that you think such a simplistic view of ethics is bait.
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  10. #520
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    I thought like 80 percent of prisonn populations came from broken homes, homes that didn't have strong family core values. You could say they came from homes that were not Religous and then when they hit rock bottom is when they turned to God
    God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Amen

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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    What if I click my heels 3 times?
    maybe you'll wake up from a dream and return from your world of rainbows, back into a world of black and white
    God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Amen

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  12. #522
    Registered User EdwardTheGreat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BlackJack619 View Post
    You could say they came from homes that were not Religous and then when they hit rock bottom is when they turned to God
    You could say any number of things to justify those numbers...but saying something, and it being true, are 2 totally different things.
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  13. #523
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    Originally Posted by SnowEh View Post
    Kinda awkward reading atheists debate about morals not knowing that theirs came from religion.

    The problem with an atheist civilization is that nothing is off limits. All laws/morals are subject to change. Rape, murder, assault, adultery, stealing etc may or may not be illegal in an atheist society. Nobody knows.
    No they are social and moral mores that religion co opted and proclaimed

    You think non theists don’t understand or critique their world ...if we didn’t understand religion how would we comprehend history, art, literature, war etc

    We get it, we just don’t believe in a godhead as defined by man over time and held in traditions and customs
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  14. #524
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    Originally Posted by EdwardTheGreat View Post
    Do you really think that atheists are hoping to murder, steal, rape, etc but are held back by the laws / punishments for doing so? If there was not punishment, it would be a free-for-all? Fukk sakes man.

    Also atheists make up less than 1% of the prison population. Religious men seem to be endlessly troubled and troublesome...
    I don't think they are hoping for anything. There is nothing binding everyone together in an atheist society other than some arbitrary "social contract". You could justify anything as long as the majority agree. If you didn't believe in those things then great, just hope that there are enough people like you.

    Gonna need a source on that. Saying your religious doesn't make it so. If you aren't committed and aren't actively practicing then I wouldn't consider you religious. You can ask any white guy on the street what religion he belongs to and he'd most likely say Christianity, but do you really think he practices? I highly doubt it. It's like those chicks who go to sports game just to take selfies for instagram and claim to be a fan. We know they aren't. Also there is a lot of converting and born again Christians in prison. Were they religious before or during prison?

    Originally Posted by AltarOfPlagues
    you don't believe in the american constitution?
    The constitution isn't an atheist document. It came from Judeo-Christian values. And yes I do.

    the questions you are asking and the lawless society that you are saying is inevitable in a secular culture suggests you didn't study anything government related ever, and if you were publicly schooled then the system has most woefully failed you.
    I've listed right here in this thread pre-christian societies and even pre-monotheistic societies with fairly complex legal systems. so you are choosing to remain ignorant.
    I haven't read every post itt so I haven't chosen to remain anything. But I can tell you that there were atheist societies that were brutal and barbaric. And you may be familiar with some of them.
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  15. #525
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    Originally Posted by SnowEh View Post
    Kinda awkward reading atheists debate about morals not knowing that theirs came from religion.

    The problem with an atheist civilization is that nothing is off limits. All laws/morals are subject to change. Rape, murder, assault, adultery, stealing etc may or may not be illegal in an atheist society. Nobody knows.
    Empathy is not a foreign concept regardless of religion, but a developmental stage.


    Any society will develop a set of societal norms required to operate. The only variable is who those values apply to, but that isn't consistent in religion either.
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  16. #526
    slouching to bethlehem AltarOfPlagues's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SnowEh View Post
    I haven't read every post itt so I haven't chosen to remain anything. But I can tell you that there were atheist societies that were brutal and barbaric. And you may be familiar with some of them.
    im not familiar with an atheist society ever.

    the american constitution is a secular document with a judeo-christian basis. this is the reason "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

    if the constitution made religious laws, the first amendment would immediately undermine that. the first amendment makes the laws of our country generally secular, though they may have some christian background if you are very charitable. What i mean to say here is, if you see the basis of law to be "thou shalt not kill" and not something much more recent and obvious, like the articles of confederation or english common law, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commen...aws_of_England , then yes, laws might hearken to biblical laws. but you have to ignore millennia of the progressions of laws of the land.

    also if we are speaking strictly in an atheist/theist sense, there are rape laws in the US that atheists would certainly defend and protect that abrahmic theists overseas don't recognize eg, afghanistan boy rape, child marriages and so on and so on.

    you are saying without religion atheists run amok, when we have very clear examples of theists running amok apart from western laws. so your argument is all shot to shiit.

    edit- i was thinking you meant historically atheist societies- i presume you mean communist russia and communist southeast asia, fine. my contention is (maybe obviously) that brutal communist revolution had everything to do with communism and nothing to do with atheism.
    Last edited by AltarOfPlagues; 02-13-2018 at 11:37 AM.
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    Originally Posted by SnowEh View Post
    I haven't read every post itt so I haven't chosen to remain anything. But I can tell you that there were atheist societies that were brutal and barbaric. And you may be familiar with some of them.
    All human civilizations were brutal and barbaric. The only way to provide the illusion of peace is to provide the population with its needs(and to a lesser extent wants)

    Hell, "God wanting you to destroy X group" was often used as justification to start wars when popular support waned.

    Bottom line though is that species will do what it takes to survive and humans are no exception. If they don't they wont exist. Start to put a person's survival in jeopardy and you will see how civilized we truly are...
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    I guess I should clarify that I don't consider all religions equal or any variations of those religions equal either. If your gripe is against religious extremists and crazy teachings from texts then I'm with you. I wouldn't want to be forced to go to church or only having sex when you're married either. But there are fundamental teachings from religion, specifically Judeo-Christian, that I don't think a secular society would have come up with.
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    Originally Posted by SnowEh View Post
    I guess I should clarify that I don't consider all religions equal or any variations of those religions equal either. If your gripe is against religious extremists and crazy teachings from texts then I'm with you. I wouldn't want to be forced to go to church or only having sex when you're married either. But there are fundamental teachings from religion, specifically Judeo-Christian, that I don't think a secular society would have come up with.
    Just go back and read through the thread. There are many examples of societies that predate Christianity that have a laws that are similar to the ones we know today. A popular example is the code of Hammurabi.
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    To be a nut job in today's society being ran by a reality tv star is a compliment, I'll let you guys get back to the source of your happiness
    God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Amen

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    How bout them public school, that's why my children will be going to a school that's not afraid to teach about right from wrong
    God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Amen

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    Vagabond Chezdon's Avatar
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    Imagine how great America could be if half you morons weren't brainwashed in to believing in a god. So tragic.
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    Originally Posted by Chezdon View Post
    Imagine how great America could be if half you morons weren't brainwashed in to believing in a god. So tragic.
    imagine if we could tell the difference between black and white
    God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Amen

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    Originally Posted by BlackJack619 View Post
    How bout them public school, that's why my children will be going to a school that's not afraid to teach about right from wrong
    Including the post upthread where you pretended to be your own kid? That the kid that WILL BE going to school?
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    Originally Posted by Chezdon View Post
    Imagine how great America could be if half you morons weren't brainwashed in to believing in a god. So tragic.
    Probably about as great as the UK. lol
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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    Including the post upthread where you pretended to be your own kid? That the kid that WILL BE going to school?
    Sorry but I don't trust the state with my children.
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    Originally Posted by BlackJack619 View Post
    imagine if we could tell the difference between black and white
    Imagine if you were sane
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    Originally Posted by PlanoLifter View Post
    Imagine if you were sane
    how do you define sane? One the goes with the status quo?
    God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Amen

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    I was watching national treasures last night with my family and there was a line that goes like this, "what is one step bellow being insane? (The one guy answers obsession, then the main character said, passionate).
    God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Amen

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    Originally Posted by SnowEh View Post
    The constitution isn't an atheist document. It came from Judeo-Christian values. And yes I do.
    This is ridiculous and false. Even the person below who said it has Judeo-Christian roots. Have you ever actually read the document?

    If you are going to say the Constitution was influenced by anything, it would be first ideas from British history, starting with the Magna Carta, and also the English Bill of Rights, that limited the role of govt (the King). Enlightenment philosophers- who specifically were against using faith to reach conclusions, rather reason, reductionism, and the scientific method- Voltaire, Rousseau, Montesquieu, and earlier Locke and Spinoza- were the major influences on the philosophy behind the constitution: ideas such as individual liberty, inalienable rights, due process, the social contract, and (significantly) federalism and how our govt is constructed (a lot of the Constitution is spent defining the three branches of govt and their duties, and relation to state govt). Where in any of this are you finding specific ideas from Judeo-Christian doctrine? No, our constitution was not based on that, and it's a false narrative. If you are saying simply because "it's law and rule", well laws have been around before the laws found in Judaism, and you are also missing the main ideas behind the Constitution.


    Edit: I wonder if some people have this false conception of what the Constitution is, without having read it. As in they think it is a bunch of laws like "thou shalt not kill" or something. No....in fact the Constitution doesn't even mention crimes like murder, rape etc. The only crimes you will find explicitly mentioned in the Constitution are treason, piracy, and counterfeiting (not counting the amendments such as abolition of slavery and liquor outlawed). It does enable congress to create federal law, and yes there are federal laws against murder, but this is not written in the Constitution explicitly. The Constitution is not some version of the Ten Commandments. So the first problem with the above arguing going on is that....you are arguing about the wrong document. When talking about "societal order, no raping, murder, or robbery", you should instead be referring to the United States code for example, or state law, not the Constitution.
    Last edited by numberguy12; 02-18-2018 at 11:18 AM.
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