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  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by Ronin4help View Post
    The term 'success is relative' in business makes no sense. Let me put it this way.... answer this (and good luck)

    Success is relative to what?
    Is Craigslist successful? I would say yes, even though Craigslist CEO Jim Buckmaster told Wall Street analysts that Craigslist had little interest in maximizing profit, and instead preferred to help users find cars, apartments, jobs and dates.

    Hmmm, seems that success to them was...wait for it...to help users find cars, apartments, jobs and dates for free. Imagine that, they could make MUCH more money than they do, BUT instead, success to them is directly RELATED to the amount of people they help. And they are a legitimate business...again I would say yes (and I think eBay would agree as well, since they purchased a 25% stake in the company).

    I expect your resignation as the most pompous poster on the internet on my desk by morning .


    Originally Posted by SyedZeeshan View Post
    I would really appreciate if you guys could provide me some books that I could read to expand my knowledge.
    OP, seriously...read this blog. The guy is a fountain of wisdom in the industry.

    https://thomasplummer.blog/
    And also just the level of norepinephrine and epinephrine in the brain that, sort of, as you know, encodes — that neurotransmitter encodes memories into the hippocampus.
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  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by Ronin4help View Post
    The term 'success is relative' in business makes no sense. Let me put it this way.... answer this (and good luck)

    Success is relative to what?
    Is Craigslist successful? I would say yes, even though Craigslist CEO Jim Buckmaster told Wall Street analysts that Craigslist had little interest in maximizing profit, and instead preferred to help users find cars, apartments, jobs and dates.

    Hmmm, seems that success to them was...wait for it...to help users find cars, apartments, jobs and dates for free. Imagine that, they could make MUCH more money than they do, but instead, success to them is directly RELATED to the amount of people they help. And are they a legitimate business? Again I would say yes (and I think eBay would agree as well, since they purchased a 25% stake in the company).

    I expect your resignation as the most pompous poster on the internet on my desk by morning .


    Originally Posted by SyedZeeshan View Post
    I would really appreciate if you guys could provide me some books that I could read to expand my knowledge.
    OP, seriously...read this blog. The guy is a fountain of wisdom in the industry.

    https://thomasplummer.blog/
    And also just the level of norepinephrine and epinephrine in the brain that, sort of, as you know, encodes — that neurotransmitter encodes memories into the hippocampus.
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  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by 401Delta View Post
    Is Craigslist successful? I would say yes, even though Craigslist CEO Jim Buckmaster told Wall Street analysts that Craigslist had little interest in maximizing profit, and instead preferred to help users find cars, apartments, jobs and dates.

    Hmmm, seems that success to them was...wait for it...to help users find cars, apartments, jobs and dates for free. Imagine that, they could make MUCH more money than they do, but instead, success to them is directly RELATED to the amount of people they help. And are they a legitimate business? Again I would say yes (and I think eBay would agree as well, since they purchased a 25% stake in the company).

    I expect your resignation as the most pompous poster on the internet on my desk by morning .






    OP, seriously...read this blog. The guy is a fountain of wisdom in the industry.

    https://thomasplummer.blog/
    Delta I agree success varies from person to person. Some compare it with the amount of money they make and some compare it the happiness they get from their business for such people money isn't the main focus, specially in service industry one must have that passion to help other and see people develop because of you. I think that is the whole concept in the service industry.

    Also yes I'm reading the blog you provided here. I have book marked it and finishing it slowly as it has way too much to read I don't want to miss any part of it.
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  4. #34
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    Originally Posted by 401Delta View Post
    Is Craigslist successful? I would say yes, even though Craigslist CEO Jim Buckmaster told Wall Street analysts that Craigslist had little interest in maximizing profit, and instead preferred to help users find cars, apartments, jobs and dates.

    Hmmm, seems that success to them was...wait for it...to help users find cars, apartments, jobs and dates for free. Imagine that, they could make MUCH more money than they do, but instead, success to them is directly RELATED to the amount of people they help. And are they a legitimate business? Again I would say yes (and I think eBay would agree as well, since they purchased a 25% stake in the company).

    I expect your resignation as the most pompous poster on the internet on my desk by morning .




    OP, seriously...read this blog. The guy is a fountain of wisdom in the industry.

    https://thomasplummer.blog/
    Trust me, this logic only makes sense to you. You are repeating the same idiotic definition of 'relative'. You continue to repeat this notion that there are different levels of greed, therefore different levels of success. lol!!

    Let me guess, you never went to business school?
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by SyedZeeshan View Post
    Delta I agree success varies from person to person. Some compare it with the amount of money they make and some compare it the happiness they get from their business for such people money isn't the main focus, specially in service industry one must have that passion to help other and see people develop because of you. I think that is the whole concept in the service industry.

    Also yes I'm reading the blog you provided here. I have book marked it and finishing it slowly as it has way too much to read I don't want to miss any part of it.
    Everyone agrees that there are different levels of success in life. This is not a novel concept. It's stuff you debate when you are 8 years old. However, this concept does not transfer over into anything you wish to apply it to. Just because there are different levels of success in life, this does not mean that there are different levels of business success.

    Success in life is subjective.
    Success in business is absolute.

    You are either successful in business because your profit margins are higher than your expenditures or you are not because your profit margins do not satisfy the needs of the business.
    To succeed at doing what you love, you often must do many things you hate.
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by SyedZeeshan View Post
    Delta I agree success varies from person to person. Some compare it with the amount of money they make and some compare it the happiness they get from their business for such people money isn't the main focus, specially in service industry one must have that passion to help other and see people develop because of you. I think that is the whole concept in the service industry.

    Also yes I'm reading the blog you provided here. I have book marked it and finishing it slowly as it has way too much to read I don't want to miss any part of it.
    Good deal. I've been to just about all of his different seminars, as well as his business school; he really knows what he's talking about.

    Originally Posted by Ronin4help View Post
    Trust me, this logic only makes sense to you. You are repeating the same idiotic definition of 'relative'. You continue to repeat this notion that there are different levels of greed, therefore different levels of success. lol!!

    Let me guess, you never went to business school?
    You asked me to prove that success is relative, which I did, apparently much to your dismay. And, yes, I have a business degree and and engineering degree (in spite of the fact that I never attended high school) . I've also built all of my own businesses from nothing and sold one of them a few years ago to retire even younger than you .

    Originally Posted by Ronin4help View Post
    Everyone agrees that there are different levels of success in life. This is not a novel concept. It's stuff you debate when you are 8 years old. However, this concept does not transfer over into anything you wish to apply it to. Just because there are different levels of success in life, this does not mean that there are different levels of business success.

    Success in life is subjective.
    Success in business is absolute.

    You are either successful in business because your profit margins are higher than your expenditures or you are not because your profit margins do not satisfy the needs of the business.
    Craigslist...could be even more successful (at least to the shareholders of eBay (who, by and large, are in it primarily to make money). Just admit it when you're wrong . Also, I think you have an unhealthy relationship with Webster; you may want to get that checked out .
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  7. #37
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    Originally Posted by 401Delta View Post
    Good deal. I've been to just about all of his different seminars, as well as his business school; he really knows what he's talking about.

    You asked me to prove that success is relative, which I did, apparently much to your dismay. And, yes, I have a business degree and and engineering degree (in spite of the fact that I never attended high school) . I've also built all of my own businesses from nothing and sold one of them a few years ago to retire even younger than you .

    Craigslist...could be even more successful (at least to the shareholders of eBay (who, by and large, are in it primarily to make money). Just admit it when you're wrong . Also, I think you have an unhealthy relationship with Webster; you may want to get that checked out .
    This is an example of your point.... Racing.

    EVERYONE in professional racing would consider their life a success, particularly the drivers.. However, most racing teams are unsuccessful financially. Their businesses bleed money every weekend. The difference is, they have money to burn...personal trainers do not.

    I have no interest in teaching trainers to accept failing in business as long as it makes them happy. Running around preaching success in failure is not admirable. No one wants to say "I earn $40,000 a year but I'm successful because I'm happy."

    Being broke is not fun and it is not a good place to be. Wasting time talking about Craigslist or any other multi-million dollar business is pointless in this forum.
    To succeed at doing what you love, you often must do many things you hate.
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by Ronin4help View Post
    No one wants to say "I earn $40,000 a year but I'm successful because I'm happy."
    You sure about that?
    "A fox has many tricks, a porcupine has only one trick - but a very good one."

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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by Ronin4help View Post
    This is an example of your point.... Racing.

    EVERYONE in professional racing would consider their life a success, particularly the drivers.. However, most racing teams are unsuccessful financially. Their businesses bleed money every weekend. The difference is, they have money to burn...personal trainers do not.

    I have no interest in teaching trainers to accept failing in business as long as it makes them happy. Running around preaching success in failure is not admirable. No one wants to say "I earn $40,000 a year but I'm successful because I'm happy."

    Being broke is not fun and it is not a good place to be. Wasting time talking about Craigslist or any other multi-million dollar business is pointless in this forum.
    Nobody here is advocating or preaching that, lol.
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    Originally Posted by KyleAaron View Post
    You sure about that?
    lol!

    I teach trainers to think bigger. Kids think $50,000 a year is successful. I teach $100,000 as a goal.

    Dream big, think big, accomplish big.
    To succeed at doing what you love, you often must do many things you hate.
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  11. #41
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    @401

    I can spend days trying to get you to understand business profitability and provide dozens of good examples. However, if there is one thing I have learned about people is that some will get it...and other's will not. I am fine with that.

    Yes, Craigslist can be more profitable. This does not mean that more profits would be defined as more success in business. But you keep thinking that if it helps.
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  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by KyleAaron View Post
    You sure about that?
    Exactly.

    Originally Posted by Ronin4help View Post
    However, if there is one thing I have learned about people is that some will get it...and other's will not. I am fine with that.
    Dear Diary...
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    Originally Posted by 401Delta View Post
    Exactly.

    Dear Diary...
    Why do you hijack people's threads and try to make them about you? What is the point to this post? Does it help the OP?
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    Originally Posted by 401Delta View Post
    Exactly.

    Dear Diary...
    The OP is considering a career in personal training. A CAREER. He isn’t asking for a restaurant recommendation or a movie recommendation. It is wrong to fill his head with nonsense because he could take it all in and use it as the foundation for his attempt at making a living at personal training.

    Your first post essentially advised that he doesn’t need to be good at sales to succeed at personal training. You wrote that all he needs is passion and enthusiasm. This is simply not true and telling people this is dangerous. How the fu*k does passion and enthusiasm (without the ability to convert it into commerce via sales) put money in your bank account?

    If the OP takes your advice (which is very bad), it is highly probable he will fail (in business, not life) because passion and enthusiasm ALONE only leads to this ridiculous satisfaction of being happy simply ‘doing what he loves’ (what I refer to as poor man’s justification). However, if he takes my advice, he might decide to avoid getting into personal training altogether, based on the realities of the business. Hence, he will not spend a good portion of his adult life chasing something that may never come to fruition as a result of his inability or disinterest in sales.
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    Whereas I see it as a pissing-match of semantic quibbling that doesn't help anyone.

    It's better-framed like this:

    IF your primary goal is money THEN you must be strong in sales. This applies whether "sales" is professional marketing, or simply being personable and having enthusiasm for your product or service.

    IF your goals include satisfaction from the product or service itself THEN you needn't be as strong in sales. But it will still help for other reasons, see below.

    Some consider money vs job satisfaction to be a dilemma, but the two are not mutually exclusive. Some people do jobs they hate to get money to make them happy outside work, but some are so happy with their work the fact that it doesn't make them much money doesn't bother them much. For example: the guy who cleans public toilets while his wife stays at home with the kids. The nature of the fitness industry is that jobs in it can run the whole range from no-satisfaction but high money, to much-satisfaction and dead broke.

    However, it's not necessarily one or the other. Some jobs offer neither money nor satisfaction, like being a trainer in most 24 hour gyms. And some will offer both, like a well-run studio gym.

    The caution here is that many people get into training because they want to help people, and they undervalue their services. "But I want to help people", says the trainer as they spend another half-hour giving a free session to someone who'll never sign up but is happy to keep milking it. IF you believe that training can change someone's life THEN it is worth their paying decent money for. And as Thomas Plummer notes, if you want to help people, you can help more people with a million dollars than you can with a thousand. If you don't want the money yourself and your family doesn't need it, hey, give it away to charity. Earn more so you can give more.

    The work accommodates a wide variety of approaches and results.
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    @Kyle

    That is not better stated. In fact, you say two things that require the same effort.

    If you want the money... you need to be able to sell.
    If you want the pleasure in helping people, you need to be able to sell.

    In either case, you aren't satisfying either desire if there is no one in front of you to talk to.
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    Originally Posted by Ronin4help View Post
    Your first post essentially advised that he doesn’t need to be good at sales to succeed at personal training. You wrote that all he needs is passion and enthusiasm. This is simply not true and telling people this is dangerous. How the fu*k does passion and enthusiasm (without the ability to convert it into commerce via sales) put money in your bank account?
    Easy there, buddy...nobody said all that .

    Here is the actual advice I gave the OP in my first post:

    OP, don't be scared if you don't possess the 'optimal' traits or talent that some people will tell you that you must have, as passion and enthusiasm can make up for this, as Kyle has so keenly pointed out.

    Start out by going to this site and reading all of it...https://thomasplummer.blog/
    The OP has taken my advice, has visited the blog, and is now more motivated than before to embark on his new career .
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    Originally Posted by Ronin4help View Post
    Your first post essentially advised that he doesn’t need to be good at sales to succeed at personal training. You wrote that all he needs is passion and enthusiasm. This is simply not true and telling people this is dangerous. How the fu*k does passion and enthusiasm (without the ability to convert it into commerce via sales) put money in your bank account? If the OP takes your advice (which is very bad), it is highly probable he will fail (in business, not life)...
    Easy there, buddy...nobody said all that . I never said he didn't need any skills, lol.

    Here is the actual advice I gave the OP in my first post:

    OP, don't be scared if you don't possess the 'optimal' traits or talent that some people will tell you that you must have, as passion and enthusiasm can make up for this, as Kyle has so keenly pointed out.

    Start out by going to this site and reading all of it...https://thomasplummer.blog/
    The OP has taken my advice, has visited the blog, and is now more motivated than before to embark on his new career .
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    Is it me or does this thread seem to go on and on and on?

    Can we all just agree to disagree and move on? I'm getting to the point where I am boring myself.
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    Solid post
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    Keep us updated on your progress, OP .
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    @Kyle
    Always a pleasure brother.

    @401
    Good job sticking in the fight. Much props brother.
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    Hey Delta, Kyle and Ronin,

    Thank you for your support and advises all the way. I didn't expect that this thread would get heated up like this. I will not upset anyone of you guys. When it comes to business's perspective Ronin im sure you need to be good marketer and should have skills in sales. But i must say what kyle mentioned above is completely right that every business has different approaches and with that we will have different results too.

    Yes, you need to be good at sales because at the end of the day you need to sell your PRODUCT to make money. Here let's say that the product is my skill to program a diet and workout from my experience and knowledge I gained from reading. Now, the concern here is what will I sell if I dont have a product in the first place? So, yes it is also important that I focus on my knowledge, which will come from experience and time I put into this subject which happens to be my passion. So it is equally important that I focus on my skill and passion because without skills or any potential Im sure there wont be any customers left to talk and sell my product either.

    There are different sales models and various approaches in the business which vary from industry to industry. Yes you can sell nothing if you are a great sales person and also you can sell a product with your potential services.

    When you have services that are actually worth you will retain customers for a longer period and there will be returning customers as well. But if you are just good at selling then Im sure there would be no customer retension or returning customer.
    Last edited by SyedZeeshan; 02-14-2018 at 10:45 AM.
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    You have the right instincts. The hard sell works, but doesn't stick. Results and a strong relationship makes them stick. Again we come back to: personal, and trainer. Either will do, but both will lead to success.

    I am not sure you can do much in KSA, though. You need to move to a civilised country.
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    Originally Posted by SyedZeeshan View Post
    Hey Delta, Kyle and Ronin,

    Thank you for your support and advises all the way. I didn't expect that this thread would get heated up like this. I will not upset anyone of you guys. When it comes to business's perspective Ronin im sure you need to be good marketer and should have skills in sales. But i must say what kyle mentioned above is completely right that every business has different approaches and with that we will have different results too.

    Yes, you need to be good at sales because at the end of the day you need to sell your PRODUCT to make money. Here let's say that the product is my skill to program a diet and workout from my experience and knowledge I gained from reading. Now, the concern here is what will I sell if I dont have a product in the first place? So, yes it is also important that I focus on my knowledge, which will come from experience and time I put into this subject which happens to be my passion. So it is equally important that I focus on my skill and passion because without skills or any potential Im sure there wont be any customers left to talk and sell my product either.

    There are different sales models and various approaches in the business which vary from industry to industry. Yes you can sell nothing if you are a great sales person and also you can sell a product with your potential services.

    When you have services that are actually worth you will retain customers for a longer period and there will be returning customers as well. But if you are just good at selling then Im sure there would be customer retension or returning customer.
    It's all good. Without members like 401 and others who challenge me, I would lose interest in posting here. I'll take ten 401Delta's over one guy who is a 'yes man' any day.

    Kyle thinks similar to me on most occasions so he isn't as much fun to challenge.
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    Originally Posted by KyleAaron View Post
    You have the right instincts. The hard sell works, but doesn't stick. Results and a strong relationship makes them stick. Again we come back to: personal, and trainer. Either will do, but both will lead to success.

    I am not sure you can do much in KSA, though. You need to move to a civilized country.
    Haha Kyle agreed. Here are things a little different. Since you know that the conditions in the middle east aren't stable I'm not sure how long I would be in this country. On the other hand India is showing some great response to fitness industry these days. I look forward to some great scope in india.

    Kyle a personal question, how long have you been training people and what were your endeavors in the beginning(let's say maybe 5 years).
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    I think India is a better place to live than KSA in the long-term, in every respect.

    I was roughly 10 years a soldier, and 10 years a chef. I was mediocre at both. I did best when I was instructing army recruits and kitchen apprentices.

    I started PT school 2009 July, and finished 2010 February. I started training people at home straight away, and then went and worked for two globogyms in 2010 July. I opened my own double garage gym 2014 July, and was full-time there, abandoning the globogym, 2014 November. So basically I am 8 years in. I make as much money in 15-20 hours a week in my garage as I did in 30-40 hours a week at the globogym.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "what were your endeavours?"
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    Something I wish I knew when I was starting out as a Personal Trainer was that we are in the business of change, not the business of fitness or classes or 1-1 training etch.

    People want change whether it's weight loss, confidence, getting stronger etc and that's what we have got to sell. Knowing who we want to help and how we can do that and communicating that to our potential clients will make a huge difference to the OP

    Good shout on the Thomas Plummer blog btw.
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    Originally Posted by KyleAaron View Post
    I think India is a better place to live than KSA in the long-term, in every respect.

    I was roughly 10 years a soldier, and 10 years a chef. I was mediocre at both. I did best when I was instructing army recruits and kitchen apprentices.

    I started PT school 2009 July, and finished 2010 February. I started training people at home straight away, and then went and worked for two globogyms in 2010 July. I opened my own double garage gym 2014 July, and was full-time there, abandoning the globogym, 2014 November. So basically I am 8 years in. I make as much money in 15-20 hours a week in my garage as I did in 30-40 hours a week at the globogym.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "what were your endeavours?"
    Hi Kyle,

    Indeed India was far better place to live than KSA at one time. Right now India is full of scams every day you hear news about how the big industrialist are taking huge amounts of loans and leaving the country without having to pay back. Black money has been stashed in swiss banks and the governments have started sucking out every penny from the civilians through huge taxes, imagine 40% just in taxes from what we earn. So making money in India at this stage isn't a good idea.

    Further, when I said endeavours I meant how were the beginnings when you started your Personal Training. But I got my answer when you said that you started PT school in 2009 and shut it down in 2010.
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