2018! New Year, New Thread! PART 3: Still trying to achieve Super Saiyan!

[cornman99]

What weight are you planning to cut down to? and what's your height?

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Cycle 3 - Week 3 - Day 2 - Upper A
Weight - 177.4 lbs

Bench Press - 185 lbs x 5/5/5/5/5/8
This was brutal as fuk. But a good amount of volume I got in. Also did 2 paused singles at 195 lbs and those moved pretty well.

Pendlay Row - 172.5 lbs x 5/5/5/5/9
Felt pretty good overall, not any complaints here

DB Shoulder Press - 30 lbs x 15/15/15/15/15
Can't believe I actually got these. My arms were literally feeling like jello and my shoulders were burning like crazy. These were very tough. 75 reps of shoulder pressing. Jesus lol.

Pull-Ups - BW x 5/5/5/5/5
Just some pull-ups to end the session.

Additional NOTES: I have a feeling some of my lifts are going to stall. Going to eat more for sure to try and spur on growth. Still being around 177 is kinda meh and won't be good enough if I want to set up some PRs. So at the start of next week I'm upping my cals and see if that does the trick. Average weight last week was around 178.4 lbs so it is steadily increasing by about 0.5-0.6 lbs a week. Hope to get it around 180 by these next 2 and a half weeks.

[cornman99]

Pendlay Row - 172.5 lbs x 5/5/5/5/9
Felt pretty good overall, not any complaints here

Nice job, you'll be rowing 315 in no time

[sooby]

What weight are you planning to cut down to? and what's your height?

I'm about 5'9. I plan to go on vacation for about 2 weeks for Christmas holidays so then I will eat at maintenance. Come back and will probably spend another 2 weeks at maintenance to get my lifts back up because I don't know if I am going to lift on vacation lol. Then probably just go on a six week mini-cut after that because I have an exam in late March and don't want to be cutting for too long during that period. If I can lose 10 lbs in six weeks it would be ideal. Then perhaps go on a short-ish bulk for a few months then after that do a proper cut, maybe around 8-10 weeks.

Nice job, you'll be rowing 315 in no time

heh, I wish lol

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Cycle 3 - Week 3 - Day 3 - Lower B
Weight - 179.2 lbs

Squats - 270 lbs x 5/5/5/5/5/8
Was a little nervous entering this workout because last week the squats felt slow-ish. But I guess I was just tripping because the first 3 sets felt like they flew up. Obviously by the 4th and 5th set it started to slow down. But on the 6th AMRAP set I hit an "easy" 8. It was probably and realistically around an RPE 7-7.5 ish but in my mind it was an RPE 9 lol. I'm really happy to throw around 270 with this amount of volume. This wasn't as brutal as I thought.

Deficit Deadlifts - 240 lbs x 8/8/8/8/8
It usually this one that is the most brutal and this time no different. It's brutal for two reasons. #1: It's after squats. #2: It's deficit deadlifts. That's all there is to it lol.

Pull-Ups - BW x 5/5/5/5/5
My hands and grip at this point was shot. Was tempted to use straps but thought I was too high and mighty for them just to use them for 5 reps each set. But lo and behold my friggin hands are just roughed up now no homer.

Additional NOTES: Brutal session, but got that volume work in on the compounds. It's only 3 exercises but trust me, it's easier to do less of the compounds and more of the accessories lol. I still supply the high quality videos for yall.

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Cycle 3 - Week 3 - Day 3 - Lower B
Weight - 179.6 lbs

Main Lift - Overhead Press

Warm-Up

45 lbs x 6
65 lbs x 4
95 lbs x 3
115 lbs x 2

Singles

132.5 lbs x 1 (+5%, @6.5)
137.5 lbs x 1 (+10%, @8)
'
Working Sets

125 lbs x 5 @ 7
125 lbs x 5 @ 7
125 lbs x 5 @ 7.5
125 lbs x 5 @ 8.5
125 lbs x 5 @ 8.5
125 lbs x 7 @ 10 (fail)

Incline Press - 155 lbs x 8/8/8/8/8
DB Rows - 40 lbs x 10/10/10/10/10 (per arm)
Pull-Ups - BW x 5/5/5/5/5

Additional NOTES: Decided to go with a different format, just for the main lifts only to outline clearly what I am doing. The "@" followed by a number outlines the RPE. The "+5%" outlines the amount above the working sets. Decided to do some singles on overhead press but I think I got overzealous with them. Not going to say it's the sole reason why I failed to get 8 reps on the my AMRAP set of OHP but probably a good part of it. I only intended the singles to feel like an RPE 6, maybe 7 at the very most. A very smooth single. But 137.5 lbs felt like a grinder. Prob cuz I'm not used to doing that heavy of a weight and I suck at singles. I haven't done a plate on OHP for a good 12 months to be honest. I think it probably tired me out a little bit. But then again 5x5 OHP followed by an AMRAP is also part of it too.

I think what I will do for now on is do 2 singles @ 5% AFTER the AMRAP set. Of course the downside to this is that the singles won't be as smooth. But I think progression on the working sets is most important. But keeping it at only 5% higher ensures the weight isn't too heavy but hopefully heavy enough to build some skill with heavier weights. I will also not do any singles on Week 3 because it's just too much compound volume, and I really want to focus on the volume aspect of this 3rd week. A lesson learned for sure. I think just keeping it lighter and simple then gradually adjusting to it is the best way. Plus adding singles I think keeps the program more fresh and enjoyable. I am still kind of bummed I missed that 8th rep as it is my first fail on this program. What I am supposed to do if I don't hit 8 according to the program is to stay at the same weight, but I will push forward for multiple reasons:

- I'm only increasing the weight next week by 2.5 lbs (yes for OHP it is a lot, but kind of not)
- Week 4 is a drastic reduction in volume which should help me hit 8 reps on the last set
- I think Week 3 was just some bad judgment, but lesson learned
- I will blame the volume, the singles, the little lady that needed help to re-rack weights right about when I was going for the AMRAP set and 100 other things lol, elbows too pointy??



Video actually a typo, it was 125 x 7 not 8 lol, just too lazy to edit.

[ThatOneStudent]

Tbh. No matter how much I read up I don't think I'll ever understand the concept of RPE. Lol.

How are you only increasing by 2.5 pounds? Does your gym have 1.25 pound weights? Haven't heard of them before, unless you meant 2.5 pounds each side

Good luck next week, it'll be tough but you got it in you

[sooby]

Tbh. No matter how much I read up I don't think I'll ever understand the concept of RPE. Lol.

How are you only increasing by 2.5 pounds? Does your gym have 1.25 pound weights? Haven't heard of them before, unless you meant 2.5 pounds each side

Good luck next week, it'll be tough but you got it in you

I'll be honest I can be a terrible judge of RPE sometimes, I often overestimate it hard. A lot of people think RPE is just simply how many reps you had left in the tank but it isn't exactly that, it's also about bar speed and how it moves. To me, and for the purposes of this log:

RPE 10 = Maximum effort/failure/no reps left in tank
RPE 9.5 = Possible 1 rep in the tank, grindy, slow moving, out of breath
RPE 9 = Definitely one rep left in tank, grindy, slow moving
RPE 8.5 = Possible two reps in tank, somewhat grindy
RPE 8 = 2 reps in the tank, ok speed, but still substantial exertion
RPE 7.5 = Probably 3 reps in the tank, still substantial exertion
RPE 7 = 4 reps in the tank, moved fairly well, still enough exertion to be called a work set
RPE 6 = 5-6 reps in tank, moved with speed, borderline enough to be called a work set, mildly strenuous

Anything less than that is probably warm-up weight.

But yeah I do have my own personal 1.25 lb plates I can add to each side. I even use it for squats and bench lol. Just cuz I have it.

[ThatOneStudent]

Ahh. Yeah I've heard all of those before; that makes sense. I guess personally I just absolutely wouldn't be able to tell how many reps I had left hahaha.

1.25 pound plates would come in useful. Expensive?

[sooby]

Ahh. Yeah I've heard all of those before; that makes sense. I guess personally I just absolutely wouldn't be able to tell how many reps I had left hahaha.

1.25 pound plates would come in useful. Expensive?

nah they were like $15

and i'm pretty sure you could probably go to your home hardware store and maybe buy some chains and alter it so it is 1.25 lbs

[cornman99]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Cycle 3 - Week 3 - Day 3 - Lower B
Weight - 179.6 lbs

Main Lift - Overhead Press

Warm-Up

45 lbs x 6
65 lbs x 4
95 lbs x 3
115 lbs x 2

Singles

132.5 lbs x 1 (+5%, @6.5)
137.5 lbs x 1 (+10%, @8)
'

Liking the singles my dude. Time to run some conjugate

[sooby]

Liking the singles my dude. Time to run some conjugate

someday

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Cycle 3 - Week 4 - Day 1 - Lower A
Weight - 179.4 lbs

Main Lift - Deadlifts

Warm-Up

135 lbs x 4
225 lbs x 3
275 lbs x 2

Working Sets

305 lbs x 5 @6
305 lbs x 5 @6
305 lbs x 5 @6
305 lbs x 8 @7.5

Singles

320 lbs x 1 (+5%) @below 6
320 lbs x 1 (+5%) @6

Squats - 220 lbs x 8/8/8
Pull-Ups - 20 lbs x 5/5/5
Back Extensions - 65 lbs x 12/12
Leg Extensions - 150 lbs x 12/12
Palloff Press - 50 lbs x 14/14/14 (per side)
DB Wrist Curls/Extensions - 15/10 lbs x 19/19/19 (superset)


Additional NOTES: Had a conference today so had to sleep early the previous day and didn't do a workout on that day. So moved it to Saturday. But also had to rush this a little bit because I went straight to the gym after an 8 hour conference and the gym closed in like an 75 minutes. Also have a conference tommorrow for another 8 hours so sleeping early, but will also do bench tmrw. Despite it all, deadlifts moved really good, felt great. Singles moved decent as well too which was nice. Overall a nice looking workout. Everything low-ish RPE, not exerting myself too hard, just wanted to get in some good work.

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Cycle 3 - Week 4 - Day 2 - Upper A
Weight - nope


Main Lift - Bench Press

Warm Up
45 x 8
95 x 6
135 x 5
155 x 3
175 x 2

Working Sets
190 lbs x 5 @7
190 lbs x 5 @7.5
190 lbs x 5 @7.5
190 lbs x 8 @9

Singles
200 lbs x 1 @6.5
200 lbs x 1 @7.5

Pendlay Rows - 177.5 lbs x 5/5/8
Felt pretty hard today.

Pull-Ups - BW x 9/9
These are getting more difficult, lol.

DB Shoulder Press - 30s x 15/15/15
Also brutal.

EZ-Bar Curls - 55 lbs x 9/9/9
Face Pulls - 50 lbs x 15/15/15/15
Cable Lateral Raises - 12.5 lbs x 13/12/11
Overhead Tricep Extension - 45 lbs x 14/14/14

Additional NOTES: This was a difficult session. Bench didn't move AS well as I would liked but still felt okay overall. Going to be hard to do 195 lbs for at least 8, ideally would like to get 9. Had the 2nd day of my conference today so had to rush the workout a little bit. The shoulder press had my shoulders and my arms dying, felt very difficult uncharacteristically considering I did this for 5 sets of 15. But I got some great volume in, no complaints.

[cornman99]

Liking these singles

[sooby]

Liking these singles

heh thanks!

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Cycle 3 - Week 4 - Day 3 - Lower B Part I
Weight - 178.8 lbs

Main Lift - Squats

Warmup
45x5
135x4
185x3
225x2
255x2

Working Sets
277.5 lbs x 5 @8
277.5 lbs x 5 @8
277.5 lbs x 5 @8.5
277.5 lbs x 8 @9.5

Singles
none

Deficit Deadlifts - 240 lbs x 8/8/8


Additional NOTES: Been super busy at work, with courses plus I went to the gym late. Had a preworkout but ended up spending half an hour trying to find out whether or not I lost my contact lens in my eye or it dropped on the floor. Apparently it was folded in my eyelids lol. So that kinda killed my buzz, went to the gym super late at 10:30 when my bedtime is 11. Overall felt super tired. It kind of showed on squats. The weight just felt really heavy on my back and everything felt slow and a struggle. That set of 8 was one of the hardest sets I've done and really had to dig deep mentally here. But I got it done. Did some deficits after and they didn't feel too bad surprisingly. I called it quits after that because it was late and I was tired, but I made up the rest of the workout the next day. Also meant to do singles at 295 lbs but I forgot as I was stripping the weights. Then I just felt too lazy and tired lol.

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Cycle 3 - Week 4 - Day 3 - Lower B Part II
Weight - 178.4 lbs

Pull-Ups - 20 lbs x 5/5/5
Back Extensions - 65 lbs x 12/12/12
Leg Curls - 115 lbs x 12/15
Crunches - 10 lbs x 9/9/9
DB Wrist Curls/Extensions - 10 lbs/15 lbs x 19/19/19/19 (supersetted, 4 sets ea)

Additional NOTES: Short little workout. Felt weird not really doing a main lift and my legs were a bit sore. But this was very light and took me about 35 minutes to complete. Weight is plateauing so will up the calories a bit. Been trying to get more sleep but it's been difficult.

[ThatOneStudent]

Felt weird not really doing a main lift and my legs were a bit sore. But this was very light and took me about 35 minutes to complete. Weight is plateauing so will up the calories a bit. Been trying to get more sleep but it's been difficult.

Fkin relatable. In and out in 35 minutes must be heaven. How much are you eating a day in calories now?

[sooby]

Fkin relatable. In and out in 35 minutes must be heaven. How much are you eating a day in calories now?

was only that one day, not a regular thing and not ideal !

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Cycle 3 - Week 4 - Day 4 - Upper B
Weight - 179.4 lbs

Main Lift - Overhead Press

Warmup
45x5
65x4
95x2
115x2

Working sets
127.5 lbs x 5 @7
127.5 lbs x 5 @7.5
127.5 lbs x 5 @7.5
127.5 lbs x 8 @10 (failed)

Singles
135 lbs x 1 @8
135 lbs x 1 @8

Incline Bench - 162.5 lbs x 8/8/10 Volume PR!
Not a huge PR, just basically trying to progressively load with rep numbers I haven't used before at certain weights.

Pull-Ups - BW - 9/9
DB Rows - 40s x 10/10/10 (per arm)
EZ-Bar Curls - 55 lbs x 9/9/10
Cable Lateral Raises - 12.5 lbs x 12/12/12
Face Pulls - 50 lbs x 15/15/15/15

Additional NOTES: Failing the 9th rep on OHP hurts! Would have been a PR. Had it half way up but just couldn't complete the rep. This is one rep that I can't have back lol. No excuses here, felt great, just couldn't complete it. Getting tighter with my ohp ofc is always a given and something I can improve on. But I sorta made it up with a light PR on incline bench.

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Cycle 3 - Week 5 - Day 1 - Lower A
Weight - 179.4 lbs

Main Lift - Deadlifts

Warmup

135x4
225x3
275x2

Working Sets

315 lbs x 5 @6
315 lbs x 5 @6
315 lbs x 5 @6
315 lbs x 13 @8.5 (Volume PR!)

Singles

335 lbs x 1 @6
335 lbs x 1 @6.5

Squats - 220 lbs x 8/8/8

Pull-Ups - 20 lbs x 6/6/6
Had to use straps on this lol, grip was shot from deadlifts

Back Extensions - 65 lbs x 13/13
Leg Extensions - 150 lbs x 13/13
Pallof Press - 55 lbs x 15/15/15
DB Wrist Curls/Extensions - 15/10 lbs x 20/20/20/20 (ea, supersetted)

Additional NOTES: This was an awesome PR for me, honestly didn't think I would get 13 but looking at the video it appeared as if I could probably have gotten 15 judging by how it moved. But damn man my grip even with straps was starting to wane, started getting a lot harder to keep tight, quads were burning, lungs were screaming, etc. Now my joints are achy as hell lol.

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Cycle 3 - Week 5 - Day 2 - Upper A
Weight - 177.4 lbs (uw0tm8s??)

Main Lifts - Bench Press

Warmup

45x5
95x4
135x4
155x3
175x2

Working Sets

195 lbs x 5 @8.5
195 lbs x 5 @8.5
195 lbs x 5 @9
195 lbs x 6 @10 (fail)

Singles
none

Pendlay Row - 182.5 lbs x 5/5/8 Volume PR!
Felt heavy at first but then got a bit easier.

Pull-Ups - BW x 10/10
DB Shoulder Press - 30 lbs x 15/15/15
EZ-Bar Curl - 55 lbs x 10/10/10
Face Pulls - 50 lbs x 15/15/15/15
Cable Lateral Raise - 12.5 lbs x 13/13/13
Cable Tricep Overhead Extension - 45 lbs x 15/15/15


Additional NOTES: Bench was a fukn disaster and I don't really have an excuse for it. Chit felt inexplicably heavy for some reason. I felt pretty good going in today but this was just really bad. Not sure why at all. Wasn't even close to my mark of 8 reps which was what I was hoping for. Skipped out on singles because I know it was going to be a bad time. Honestly I've been wanting to do this for a long time but this failure gives me a good excuse to do so. I've been wanting to switch to paused bench for quite awhile so I think I will go ahead and make that change next cycle. I will lower the bench weight by maybe 12.5% to ensure I start light and ensure that as little of reps as possible are grinders and that they should be moderately easy to hit. I've been grinding on bench press week after week and it really doesn't seem to be helping all that much. Although I need to be gaining more weight. I've almost been stuck around this level for a long time that I need to do something different to break this cycle. And MyEgoProblem suggested to me that on my second upper day I do a few sets of AMRAPs @RPE9, perhaps starting off at around a set of 12 then going from there. I'm going to sub out incline bench for this for at least a little while.

I'll also be making some other changes to the cycle as my little way of concurrently periodizing as well. I will be subbing pull-ups on one of my workout days for Lat Pulldowns, I think it is good to have more of a balance there. I'll be changing some rep ranges here and there, like changing DB shoulder presses from sets of 15 to 12 but with heavier DBs. I'll list my next cycle when I'm finished with this one.

[ThatOneStudent]

lookin swole in that vidya

Sometimes chit happens, bench is a hard lift to progress on, or so i feel.

much less linear than squats or DLs

[sooby]

lookin swole in that vidya

Sometimes chit happens, bench is a hard lift to progress on, or so i feel.

much less linear than squats or DLs

not quite swole yet but thanks lol. yeah bench is really hard, feel like running a smolov jr lol

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Cycle 3 - Week 5 - Day 3 - Lower B
Weight - 178.8 lbs

Main Lifts - Squats

Warmups

45x5
135x4
185x3
225x2
255x2

Working Sets

287.5 lbs x 5 @6
287.5 lbs x 5 @6.5
287.5 lbs x 5 @7
287.5 lbs x 10 @9 Volume PR!

Singles

302.5 lbs x 1 @6.5
302.5 lbs x 1 @7

Deficit Deadlifts - 240 lbs x 8/8/8
Pull-Ups - 20 lbs x 6/6/6
Back Extensions - 65 lbs x 13/13
Leg Curls - 115 lbs x 13/13
Crunches - 10 lbs x 10/10/10
DB Wrist Curls/Extensions - 15/10 lbs x 20/20/20 (superset, ea)


Additional NOTES: Honestly was feeling pretty demotivated as of late. Commutes to work have been long. Lots of stuff to do at work so I would end up staying late. Would come home and have more assignments to do and what not. Was supposed to do this workout on Monday but somehow I did it on Wednesday because I didn't really feel like going. It's really strange because that's almost a first where I didn't feel like going and just kinda gave in to it. But stress is at an all time high so yeah.

Really didn't know what to expect during this session, last squat session didn't go exactly well. But man when I was warming up the weights felt like cake. 225 warmups felt like a feather so that sort of gave me a confidence booster. But man that AMRAP set was BRUTAL. It looked like I could get one more but damn my lungs damn near ready to explode.

From the first working set tho I felt my heart kind of racing and it never really calmed down until after the session which felt strange. It felt slightly uncomfortable and I was slightly jittery but for some reason it would never really get any higher during the actual working sets. It just remained high lol. I think I took too much caffeine, like 550mg throughout the day which is more than I normally take.

Mannnnn my lower body lifts have been going up but my upper body has been flatlining quite a bit. I really need to hit 132.5 lbs on the OHP for 8 to maintain some sanity here.

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Cycle 3 - Week 5 - Day 4 - Upper B
Weight - 179.8 lbs


Main Lift - Overhead Press

Warm-Up

45x6
65x5
95x4
115x3
125x2

Working Sets

132.5 lbs x 5 @8.5
132.5 lbs x 5 @9
132.5 lbs x 5 @9
132.5 lbs x 6 @10 (fail) Volume PR!

Singles

140 lbs x 1 @8
140 lbs x 1 @8.5

Incline Bench - 165 lbs x 8/8/8
Meant to do 167.5 lbs but forgot to put the micro plates. Still pretty difficult.

Pull-Ups - BW x 7/7/6
Tough as I felt pretty winded by the two previous exercises.

DB Rows - 40s x 10/10/10
EZ-Bar Curls - 55 lbs x 10/10/10
Cable Side Raises - 12.5 lbs x 13/13/13
Face Pulls - 50 lbs x 15/15/15/15

Additional NOTES: Absolutely brutal as fuk session. OHP just felt super heavy and was pretty bummed that I couldn't hit 8 reps. But I guess I should take solace in the fact that it is a PR technically and that I can probably do 4x5 with 135 lbs. Now I'm debating on whether or not I should lighten the weight and go for sets of 8 next cycle or keep going with this progression except do sets of 3. I am personally leaning more towards keep going with the progression but using sets of 3.

Mainly because I suck at heavy OHP, I haven't really trained triples a lot and that should hopefully spur some gains. Not to mention at least for this cycle the RPE should be lessened for the regular sets but I still have the opportunity to push myself on AMRAPs. I think I need to be working more closer in the 1 plate range and with weights I've never used before. Next cycle I'm shooting for 1 plate for a set of 7, but I will be happy with 6. I might be even able to do that right now so I'll just keep 7 as the goal.

I think I've just accumulated too much fatigue and with how busy my life is right now I am probably underrecovering. SO the plan is to hopefully tighten that up and eat a bit more. I want to be around 182-183 lbs by the next 6 weeks or so. I'm just glad this cycle is over and now I have an opportunity to rest. I'll probably be taking more of a deload this time around and not test my incline bench and pull-up abilities. I'll probably do 1 set of each compound movement beltless which should get me in an out of the gym in like 20 minutes and just go through the motions a bit to give myself a mental break. Seems like a waste but I wanna keep my technique to memory. However, I will test my paused bench in order to determine the weight I should be starting at.

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Deload - Day 1
Weight - 179.8 lbs


Deadlifts - 285 lbs x 3
Did this completely paleo lol. No chalk, no belt, double overhand. Literally was rolling out of my hands tho but the weight wasn't difficult.

Squats - 230 lbs x 5
Hips felt kinda tight and weird tbh. Also done beltless.

Paused Bench - 175 lbs x 7
My chest was somehow still sore from incline on Thursday so I was somewhat limited here. But wasn't too difficult. Maybe RPE 8.

Additional NOTES: Went to get my tires changed so I was like fuk it might as well go to the gym. Also didn't want to go to the gym tommorrow so I threw in some paused bench here. Felt pretty good tbh. Still need to focus on keeping scaps retracted, I have such a hard time with it.

[sooby]

Kizen Off-Season Program
Deload - Day 2
Weight - 180.4 lbs

Squats - 265 lbs x 3
For some reason beltless and sleeveless just feels weird, like an uncomfortable feeling in my hips and knees, like I struggle to hit depth or something. This was actually kinda hard lol. Still RPE 7ish. Then again this is deload week so I didn't really take this srs.

Overhead Press - 120 lbs x 8
Paused all my reps here to the chest, was actually harder than I thought haha. Might have been RPE 9 here.

Deficit Deadlift - 255 lbs x 2
This is the last time I'm using straight up metal plates lol. As soon as I lowered the bar to the floor I could feel the impact jam my wrists a little bit. Felt kind of uncomfortable and actually hurt lol.

Additional NOTES: Just some soft ass deload chit, not even sure if it was worth it lol.

[ardee2124]

Amazing gains man. Squats in particular... 290x10 preexhausted is insane, 405 is well on the way.

Question... has all the forearm stuff actually been working? Have you seen gains?