Is Soreness Necessary for Growth?

[tkdnj]

I've seen a bunch of articles; some say yes, some say no. I was wondering what the forum thought. I have been training for most of the last 35 years. I don't get sore anymore no matter what I do. I do a pretty standard routine of hitting each body part twice a week (actually twice every 8 days on a 3 day on 1 day off routine), 12 sets for large muscle groups, 8 sets for smaller muscle groups, rep range is anywhere from 7 to 14, mostly 8-12. And, I go to failure basically on every set (failure defined as I can't get any more reps without cheating the weight up/down). The only downside of my routine is I don't switch up exercises very often because my shoulder surgery somewhat limits my choices. By the way, I get awesome pumps during my workouts.

53 year old natural bodybuilder, only concerned with hypertrophy

Love to hear your thoughts!
Thanks!

[grubman]

In my personal experience and the majority of what I've read from sources I believe ...no.

I continue to make small improvements, and rarely get sore. My volume/ frequency/ intensity is similar to yours.

[ElrondHubbard]

Sometimes I get a little sore, sometimes not. There seems to be little or no correlation with progress.

[401Delta]

100% no, it is absolutely not necessary for growth.

https://www.painscience.com/articles...e-soreness.php

And going to failure on every set is probably not optimal for you either, if hypertrophy is your goal.

[JaymzJ]

Not really, muscle soreness comes from a buildup of lactic acid if it is shortly after your workout but if it is DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) then the soreness could be from other things so is it necessary for growth? No. Is it in relation to growth? ...maybe? But not likely a big factor.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...tic-acid-buil/

[tkdnj]

100% no, it is absolutely not necessary for growth.

https://www.painscience.com/articles...e-soreness.php

And going to failure on every set is probably not optimal for you either, if hypertrophy is your goal.

Why is going to failure on every set not good for hypertrophy?

[401Delta]

Not really, muscle soreness comes from a buildup of lactic acid if it is shortly after your workout but if it is DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) then the soreness could be from other things so is it necessary for growth? No. Is it in relation to growth? ...maybe? But not likely a big factor.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...tic-acid-buil/

That article is from 2006. There is no direct link between DOMS and a build up of lactic acid.

[401Delta]

Why is going to failure on every set not good for hypertrophy?

I didn't say that it was not 'good', just that it was probably not optimal.

Here is an excerpt from Eric Helms on the subject...

How to Implement RPE in Your Training

Lesson 3: Using RPE to manage fatigue

So, we know that strength is not stable, as it fluctuates session to session based on stress inside and outside of the gym. And you now know from the discussion in the previous email that RPE can be a useful tool for making sure the appropriate intensity of effort is used on a set to set basis given this.

To put this another way: by adding an RPE guideline to each exercise in our training programs we can ensure that we don’t hammer ourselves too hard when we train, or underperform when strength is unexpectedly high.

Some of you might be a little confused right now if you were under the impression that training to failure was a good idea to do on every set or the majority of sets if your goal is hypertrophy.

Let's talk about that for a moment. Recall from the last email that volume is a key component for hypertrophy training. So let's take a hypothetical situation where you decide to take 3 sets with your 10 rep max (10RM) to failure on all sets and see what your volume is if you don't change the load.

If you go all the way to failure on set 1, doing 10 reps and then maintain the same load, you will more than likely drop to ~7 reps on set 2, and then down to ~5 reps on set 3. That means a total of ~22 reps performed with a 10RM load.

Let's say instead, you stayed 1 rep shy of failure on your first set and did 9 reps. More than likely you'd be able to maintain 9 reps on set 2 but be pretty damn close to failure, and then on set 3 only be able to get 8. In this case, you got 26 reps with a 10RM load, which is four more reps. Can you honestly say that the former is better for hypertrophy given the importance of volume?

Well, we don't have to speculate, because we actually have data to show that training to failure results in similar adaptations to not training to failure, except training to failure results in being in a less recovered state. So there is nothing to gain, but potentially something to lose in that you’ll be able to train less frequently.

Fatigue management is very important for making progress. Especially if you are using the principles from the last email - using a more moderate volume, higher frequency approach. If you are training a muscle group or exercise more frequently, you have to be strategic in your load selection to avoid overburdening yourself and subsequently underperforming due to being in the haze of recovery from the last session.

This is where RPE comes in...

You may have a high volume moderate load upper body session earlier in the week, and then a heavy load upper body session with moderate volume later in the week. Training to failure on the first session of the week can suppress force production and generates muscle soreness to a greater degree than staying short of failure, and this can interfere with that heavy session.

So, instead of cranking out a bunch of sets to failure during session one, leave 1-3 reps in the tank at the end of your sets with compound exercises and only take your last set of your isolation work for each muscle group to failure. This can make a big difference for fatigue management. The end result is that you'll go into your heavy session fresh and ready to perform, meaning greater gains and less likelihood of injury in the long run.

[tkdnj]

I didn't say that it was not 'good', just that it was probably not optimal.

Here is an excerpt from Eric Helms on the subject...

How to Implement RPE in Your Training

Lesson 3: Using RPE to manage fatigue

So, we know that strength is not stable, as it fluctuates session to session based on stress inside and outside of the gym. And you now know from the discussion in the previous email that RPE can be a useful tool for making sure the appropriate intensity of effort is used on a set to set basis given this.

To put this another way: by adding an RPE guideline to each exercise in our training programs we can ensure that we don’t hammer ourselves too hard when we train, or underperform when strength is unexpectedly high.

Some of you might be a little confused right now if you were under the impression that training to failure was a good idea to do on every set or the majority of sets if your goal is hypertrophy.

Let's talk about that for a moment. Recall from the last email that volume is a key component for hypertrophy training. So let's take a hypothetical situation where you decide to take 3 sets with your 10 rep max (10RM) to failure on all sets and see what your volume is if you don't change the load.

If you go all the way to failure on set 1, doing 10 reps and then maintain the same load, you will more than likely drop to ~7 reps on set 2, and then down to ~5 reps on set 3. That means a total of ~22 reps performed with a 10RM load.

Let's say instead, you stayed 1 rep shy of failure on your first set and did 9 reps. More than likely you'd be able to maintain 9 reps on set 2 but be pretty damn close to failure, and then on set 3 only be able to get 8. In this case, you got 26 reps with a 10RM load, which is four more reps. Can you honestly say that the former is better for hypertrophy given the importance of volume?

Well, we don't have to speculate, because we actually have data to show that training to failure results in similar adaptations to not training to failure, except training to failure results in being in a less recovered state. So there is nothing to gain, but potentially something to lose in that you’ll be able to train less frequently.

Fatigue management is very important for making progress. Especially if you are using the principles from the last email - using a more moderate volume, higher frequency approach. If you are training a muscle group or exercise more frequently, you have to be strategic in your load selection to avoid overburdening yourself and subsequently underperforming due to being in the haze of recovery from the last session.

This is where RPE comes in...

You may have a high volume moderate load upper body session earlier in the week, and then a heavy load upper body session with moderate volume later in the week. Training to failure on the first session of the week can suppress force production and generates muscle soreness to a greater degree than staying short of failure, and this can interfere with that heavy session.

So, instead of cranking out a bunch of sets to failure during session one, leave 1-3 reps in the tank at the end of your sets with compound exercises and only take your last set of your isolation work for each muscle group to failure. This can make a big difference for fatigue management. The end result is that you'll go into your heavy session fresh and ready to perform, meaning greater gains and less likelihood of injury in the long run.

Very interesting... Thanks!

[tkdnj]

Great info and perspectives guys...Thanks!

[akaMarko]

I used to get really bad DOMS after leg day. Two things I did to combat this is I've started throwing in 10 mins of HIIT cardio at the ned of leg day and switched from training them 1 day a week to 2 days a week. Very little if any soreness now but I'm still seeing progress.

[JaymzJ]

I used to get really bad DOMS after leg day. Two things I did to combat this is I've started throwing in 10 mins of HIIT cardio at the ned of leg day and switched from training them 1 day a week to 2 days a week. Very little if any soreness now but I'm still seeing progress.

Wisdom ITT, making Canadians look good. Repped

[Bando]

Going against the grain here, but for me soreness is an indicator of a job well done. If you track your workouts and get a couple more reps or a few more lbs than last time, that would be another indicator. I hesitate to weigh in against someone with 35 years in the gym but if you never get sore maybe it's time to switch something up? For example, I stopped getting sore traps from DB shrugs and wasn't seeing any progress so I switched to a trap bar, sore for the 1st few weeks and started seeing progress again soon after that.

[akaMarko]

Wisdom ITT, making Canadians look good. Repped

haha...right back at ya bro!

[drkelly74]

I am usually at least a little sore for a couple of days after each workout.

[OldFartTom]

Wow, 35 years... repping!
You tell us what works best for you

[tkdnj]

Wow, 35 years... repping!
You tell us what works best for you

I don't have great genetics for packing on muscle. I weighed 105 pounds as a junior in high school! That was when I started lifting weights. I did the standard "chest & back / Bis & tris & shoulders / Legs" repeat workout of the early 80's. I managed to build some muscle, got up to 165 in 3 years and managed to play D3 football and compete in 2 local shows. Anyway, I've been at it ever since except for a year off for hernia surgery, 9 years when I focused on TaeKwonDo so only did pushups and chins (in my 40's), and about 18 months away from any real training when I had extensive rotator cuff and bicep tenodesis surgery (7 screws worth) 3 years ago. After TaeKwonDo and after the shoulder surgery recovery I basically lost just about all of my muscle. Oh back to your question: what works best for me? I've tried it all, and it all worked pretty much the same, which was just OK, but I am always trying to find the best, most effective, routines, diets etc...The pursuit for the (probably non-existent) "perfect" system has become a hobby for me. I have a goal of competing in a natural over 50 show at some point. Oh, also, I have a degree in Nutrition though I wound up going into a different field. And, I might add, I am HUGE fan of the Golden Era. I spend much of my free time reading books and watching youtube videos of (what I call) the Pumping Iron era.

You asked what worked best for me, and I gave you my life story.... sorry :-)

[Bando]

I am HUGE fan of the Golden Era. I spend much of my free time reading books and watching youtube videos of (what I call) the Pumping Iron era.

You should sign up for Dave Draper's newsletter.

[tkdnj]

You should sign up for Dave Draper's newsletter.

Thanks, I'll do that! I just bought his book "Iron In My Hands"

[DrJonPT]

I've seen a bunch of articles; some say yes, some say no. I was wondering what the forum thought. I have been training for most of the last 35 years. I don't get sore anymore no matter what I do. I do a pretty standard routine of hitting each body part twice a week (actually twice every 8 days on a 3 day on 1 day off routine), 12 sets for large muscle groups, 8 sets for smaller muscle groups, rep range is anywhere from 7 to 14, mostly 8-12. And, I go to failure basically on every set (failure defined as I can't get any more reps without cheating the weight up/down). The only downside of my routine is I don't switch up exercises very often because my shoulder surgery somewhat limits my choices. By the way, I get awesome pumps during my workouts.

53 year old natural bodybuilder, only concerned with hypertrophy

Love to hear your thoughts!
Thanks!

Thoughts: soreness is not required for growth. I also would not recommend going to failure every set. Mix hypertrophy / strength rep ranges either weekly or in a periodized way.

[tkdnj]

Thoughts: soreness is not required for growth. I also would not recommend going to failure every set. Mix hypertrophy / strength rep ranges either weekly or in a periodized way.

Good call regarding mixing rep ranges. Why not go to failure each set? ( again, I define failure has stopping when I can’t get another rep out without cheating ) Thanks.

[NattyLunk]

Going against the grain here, but for me soreness is an indicator of a job well done. If you track your workouts and get a couple more reps or a few more lbs than last time, that would be another indicator. I hesitate to weigh in against someone with 35 years in the gym but if you never get sore maybe it's time to switch something up? For example, I stopped getting sore traps from DB shrugs and wasn't seeing any progress so I switched to a trap bar, sore for the 1st few weeks and started seeing progress again soon after that.

I agree with this guy.... I feel you're not getting sore, it's time to change it up

[401Delta]

I agree with this guy.... I feel you're not getting sore, it's time to change it up

If you've been on an effective program for a while AND still making good progress, you're unlikely to experience DOMS and there would be no reason to change just because of that.