Which squat variation

[danjamhow]

I'm getting caught up reading a lot of different material and i wandered if someone could enlighten me on the following; my main goal is to look as good as i physically can, i'm currently using the ICF workout which i have no problem with, my issue is entirely based on what i need to do within this workout to achieve my goal and mainly what sort of squat am i best to use if my main interest is aesthetic? I understand to build muscle i need to lift more weight progressively but which squat should i invest more time in, low bar or high bar? i can comfortably do both ATG but for the benefit of looking as best i can which would be better? I'm aware the high bar squat is quad dominant and the low bar robs the quads and engages the posterior chain more. To me it makes more sense to go down the high bar route and increase the size of my quads for better aesthetics but can anyone give me any reason why it makes more sense to do the low bar squat. I've read that people like Rippetoe don't even class the high bar squat as a 'proper squat' which to me sounds absurd because although they are different they also both require a lot of core engagement and technique, i wouldnt consider the high bar to not be a 'proper squat'. Any thoughts on this would also be interesting to hear.

TL : DR which is better for aesthetics, high bar or low bar.

[WolfRose7]

Probably high bar.
Depends though, I find the bar being too high on my traps doesn't let me get tight and therefore limits how much I can grind quite a bit.

If high bar feels good though do that, careful about ATG, quite a few people's lower back will shift once you drop below a certain depth.
Best way to check this is to film some work sets from the side.

[supramax]

I'm getting caught up reading a lot of different material and i wandered if someone could enlighten me on the following; my main goal is to look as good as i physically can, i'm currently using the ICF workout which i have no problem with, my issue is entirely based on what i need to do within this workout to achieve my goal and mainly what sort of squat am i best to use if my main interest is aesthetic? I understand to build muscle i need to lift more weight progressively but which squat should i invest more time in, low bar or high bar? i can comfortably do both ATG but for the benefit of looking as best i can which would be better? I'm aware the high bar squat is quad dominant and the low bar robs the quads and engages the posterior chain more. To me it makes more sense to go down the high bar route and increase the size of my quads for better aesthetics but can anyone give me any reason why it makes more sense to do the low bar squat. I've read that people like Rippetoe don't even class the high bar squat as a 'proper squat' which to me sounds absurd because although they are different they also both require a lot of core engagement and technique, i wouldnt consider the high bar to not be a 'proper squat'. Any thoughts on this would also be interesting to hear.

TL : DR which is better for aesthetics, high bar or low bar.

Neither. The front squat is a better quad developer. Pair it with RDL's for the ass and hamstrings.

[Gloryhound]

I like the low squat for a brute strength move, but then move into Hack squat for quads and straight leg dead lift for the ham strings at a higher rep range.

[danjamhow]

Following the ICF workout i cant really add any other movements in without risking injury so i really need to focus on one squat movement, ideally would want to avoid supplementing a front squat with RDL for example as it will just be too much work, ICF is plenty enough work as it is! I also do Good mornings once or twice a week depending on how the routine falls that week.

[supramax]

Following the ICF workout i cant really add any other movements in without risking injury so i really need to focus on one squat movement, ideally would want to avoid supplementing a front squat with RDL for example as it will just be too much work, ICF is plenty enough work as it is! I also do Good mornings once or twice a week depending on how the routine falls that week.

I just checked out the routine: It reads 'SQUATS'. I don't see a specific type of squat mentioned. https://www.muscleandstrength.com/wo...novice-workout

[WolfRose7]

I just checked out the routine: It reads 'SQUATS'. I don't see a specific type of squat mentioned. https://www.muscleandstrength.com/wo...novice-workout

Cmon now, I love front squats as much as anyone but 'squats' means barbell back squats

[danjamhow]

I just checked out the routine: It reads 'SQUATS'. I don't see a specific type of squat mentioned. https://www.muscleandstrength.com/wo...novice-workout

No, It doesn't refer to a type of squat, but it is usually one of the back squat variations that is used, generally most people would say the low bar because of the way it allows you to use more muscles whilst also allowing a greater amount of weight to be used, however due to the fact that it neglects the quads i wander if i would be better suited to high bar to achieve a better looking body, i'm not exclusively interested in strength and higher numbers which the low bar is generally used for.

[WolfRose7]

No, It doesn't refer to a type of squat, but it is usually one of the back squat variations that is used, generally most people would say the low bar because of the way it allows you to use more muscles whilst also allowing a greater amount of weight to be used, however due to the fact that it neglects the quads i wander if i would be better suited to high bar to achieve a better looking body, i'm not exclusively interested in strength and higher numbers which the low bar is generally used for.

I wouldn't say it neglects quads.. they are still the prime mover, it's just not quite as quad heavy as oly style high bar, and that again slightly less than fronts.

A big low bar squatter is still going to have some hella quads

[supramax]

Cmon now, I love front squats as much as anyone but 'squats' means barbell back squats

Really? I read a study recently that stated that front squats achieved the same effects as back squats with 30% less load. I don't remember which variation of back squat it was, or if it was even mentioned, but still....

[danjamhow]

bump

Any other opinions?

[Luca2]

I could venture a couple of points:

1) I'd wager that if you get one of two identical twins to only do low-bar and the other to only do high-bar for a year, the results would be pretty similar. Genetics place a huge rule in how you're going to look. AFAIK, Jonnie Candito mainly trained high-bar until a couple years ago and his ass has always been enormous. You do the math.

2) Whatever exercise you're talking about, you should always view it in the context of the entire training program. Note that while the squat is usually treated as a main lift, a lot of hypertrophy (aesthetics?) actually comes from volume work, which could include hack squats, leg presses, etc.

Really?

Yes really. Case in point, if you click on "Squat" in the link you posted it will take you to a barbell back squat video tutorial lol.

[supramax]

...
Yes really. Case in point, if you click on "Squat" in the link you posted it will take you to a barbell back squat video tutorial lol.

That's the link to the Ice Cream workout. I don't back squat, but I read the instructions as 'low bar'. It's specific to the workout, not the squat exercise.

[MyEgoProblem]

Neither. The front squat is a better quad developer. Pair it with RDL's for the ass and hamstrings.

Pound for pound i agree..

But most can high bar more weight, so much so to the point front squats loose that advantage.

That's my experience at least. Ymmv. I'm not built to Front squat with my anthropometry.

As for 30% less load dor same effect.. wasn't that just fir obe head of the quad? Moot for me, 240kg lobar, 210 hibar, 140 Front due to leverage.

But i do Love fronts, real (wo) man maker!

I wouldn't say it neglects quads.. they are still the prime mover, it's just not quite as quad heavy as oly style high bar, and that again slightly less than fronts.

A big low bar squatter is still going to have some hella quads

Greg nuckols has some data showing wide Stance doesn't seem to give less quad activation over close 'oly' style ☺️

Just that you can lift more with more ass in the lift. Like when you chin more than you pull cos biceps help but don't lower back involvement

[supramax]

Pound for pound i agree..

But most can high bar more weight, so much so to the point front squats loose that advantage.

That's my experience at least. Ymmv. I'm not built to Front squat with my anthropometry.

As for 30% less load dor same effect.. wasn't that just fir obe head of the quad? Moot for me, 240kg lobar, 210 hibar, 140 Front due to leverage.

But i do Love fronts, real (wo) man maker!...

I can't find the complete study (without paying), but here's the abstract:
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Ab..._Front.41.aspx
My words to the effect were in reference to this: "The front squat was as effective as the back squat in terms of overall muscle recruitment".
My numbers were correct, though.

[Watsonm5]

I got some great info. just yesterday on low bar squats which I'm going to try out. cartermathis corrected me and gets all the street cred on this so I'm getting this from him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AObAU-EcYE

Mark Rippetoe explains it extremely well. I was doing squats incorrectly all this time until I watched this. Of course I was looking straight out, would raise up and push hips forward. Of course I was doing High-bar squats and no clue whatsoever! ALL WRONG apparently. Besides my squats completely suck since I have chicken legs this will apparently save my back and get me more power based upon the leverage and focus on the lower back focus on the upward motion. Here is a great suggestion to check out as it explains everything in great detail. Hope you enjoy and good luck!

[WolfRose7]

I got some great info. just yesterday on low bar squats which I'm going to try out. cartermathis corrected me and gets all the street cred on this so I'm getting this from him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AObAU-EcYE

Mark Rippetoe explains it extremely well. I was doing squats incorrectly all this time until I watched this. Of course I was looking straight out, would raise up and push hips forward. Of course I was doing High-bar squats and no clue whatsoever! ALL WRONG apparently. Besides my squats completely suck since I have chicken legs this will apparently save my back and get me more power based upon the leverage and focus on the lower back focus on the upward motion. Here is a great suggestion to check out as it explains everything in great detail. Hope you enjoy and good luck!

Rips Squat isn't "correct" or your previous one necessarily "incorrect"
Hell rips version isn't even the only version of low bar...

It's just a particularly teachable method that applies well to a lot of people (though not all)

[Watsonm5]

Rips Squat isn't "correct" or your previous one necessarily "incorrect"
Hell rips version isn't even the only version of low bar...

It's just a particularly teachable method that applies well to a lot of people (though not all)

No worries. I suppose find the squat that works and is safe. I thought it was interesting find as I am a noob and know nothing. For me it was like man discovering Fire for the first time just to put it in context. LOL I've don't front squats before...why are they such a bitch btw? I felt comfortable using the cross arm grip instead of under. Always felt I was going to fall over ...

[WolfRose7]

No worries. I suppose find the squat that works and is safe. I thought it was interesting find as I am a noob and know nothing. For me it was like man discovering Fire for the first time just to put it in context. LOL I've don't front squats before...why are they such a bitch btw? I felt comfortable using the cross arm grip instead of under. Always felt I was going to fall over ...

Fronts are fun that's for sure.

[Watsonm5]

Fronts are fun that's for sure.

Good vid bro. Explained what I was doing incorrectly and how to fix it. mainly my knees not being pushed outward to maintain an upright stable body. I would always lean forward because of my knees and stance incorrectly moving. Cheers!

[danjamhow]

So what I can extract from everyone's suggestions is that it's all down to a matter of opinion really and maybe a combination of several different variations is more effective than just relying on one. Either way I think Rippetoe is someone who knows what he's talking about and the low bar that he advocates seems to be generally preferred over high bar mainly for strength and getting more weight up but I guess in the end more weight, regardless of how you lift it, will result in more size. I'll stick to low bar and see how I get on. Thanks for all the responses.

[Gwybodaeth]

Rippetoe is a dummy. Low bar squats require exaggerated forward tilt, which places your lumbar spine in a very precarious position. It's not designed for loading in that way. The best way to protect the weakest link in your body is to stay as vertical as possible, and everybody can do that in a front squat, regardless of morphology. Unfortunately in life, lots of the 'efficient' ways to lift are also the hardest on our spines.

Besides poor technique, the weight of the barbell is the other big factor that will influence spinal injury. As lighter front squats generally elicit the same EMG activity as heavier back squats, why bother?

[wowter]

Rippetoe is a dummy. Low bar squats require exaggerated forward tilt, which places your lumbar spine in a very precarious position. It's not designed for loading in that way. The best way to protect the weakest link in your body is to stay as vertical as possible, and everybody can do that in a front squat, regardless of morphology. Unfortunately in life, lots of the 'efficient' ways to lift are also the hardest on our spines.

Besides poor technique, the weight of the barbell is the other big factor that will influence spinal injury. As lighter front squats generally elicit the same EMG activity as heavier back squats, why bother?

Sources for bolded?

[Gwybodaeth]

Soviet-era biomechanists and sports scientists, specifically research into efficient pulling mechanics, squat training, injury rates etc. Most of it is not translated (and
most of the stuff that has made its way to the western world is old, outmoded principles - though one may argue that the stuff that is taught at the moment is also old material), but the best translated stuff I have seen is on Sportivny Press, if you can navigate his website/have access to his cache of articles locked behind passwords.

Lots of the research into efficient weightlifting mechanics spawned a by-product of lumbar spine literature, as 'efficient' practices such as shoulders in front of the bar and flat feet for as long as possible results in lumbar loading. Not so bad in an era of disposable heroes and limitless PEDs, but times change and so should methods (for instance, China's style of weightlifting, though they also do lots of retarded stuff in practice.) The spine's pretty good at supporting compressive load, but things go to **** when it is pulled from the side and shear forces are placed upon it. Heavy clean pulls and heavy back squats are some of the biggest culprits for lumbar pain, alongside flexion under load.

[Gloryhound]

Rippetoe is a dummy. Low bar squats require exaggerated forward tilt, which places your lumbar spine in a very precarious position. It's not designed for loading in that way. The best way to protect the weakest link in your body is to stay as vertical as possible, and everybody can do that in a front squat, regardless of morphology. Unfortunately in life, lots of the 'efficient' ways to lift are also the hardest on our spines.

Besides poor technique, the weight of the barbell is the other big factor that will influence spinal injury. As lighter front squats generally elicit the same EMG activity as heavier back squats, why bother?

If you watch the Rippetoe video he actually addresses these ideas. Also according to what you are saying straight leg dead lifts, good mornings, and weighted hyper-extensions should be way worse. Also if you have those Russian studies that you apparently have access to, or you can't use them as a source, could you forward them to me, my wife is a Russian linguist and I could have her translate them.

[Benjinkan]

Squats means back squats, whether high or low bar is more down to personal preference/comfort IMO...

FWIW low bar fuks with my shoulders and elbows, so I only ever do high bar

[Gwybodaeth]

If you watch the Rippetoe video he actually addresses these ideas. Also according to what you are saying straight leg dead lifts, good mornings, and weighted hyper-extensions should be way worse. Also if you have those Russian studies that you apparently have access to, or you can't use them as a source, could you forward them to me, my wife is a Russian linguist and I could have her translate them.

I don't think he knows what he is talking about. He wants American weightlifters to replace high bar squats with low bar squats to mimic the pull (doesn't mimic the pull.) Most of the stuff he posits doesn't make a whole lot of sense for injury prevention, either. But yes, any kind of trunk lean with heavy loading is a risk for the spine - including deadlifts. It's the reason why heavy pulls are a contentious exercise in modern weightlifting, and why Asians don't even bother with the Russian style of pulling anymore.

Try writings by people like Zhekov and Lukashev, who both have published articles/research referenced on Sportivny Press.

[supramax]

Squats means back squats, whether high or low bar is more down to personal preference/comfort IMO...

You're wrong, but it's not a big deal.

[supramax]

I don't think he knows what he is talking about...

Some of his stuff is good and his 'training the whole body at one time' philosophy is excellent, IMHO. His nutrition advice, his lean mass promises and the 'jump and shrug' stuff is invented bull****, though. As Rogelio says: "Every time that a bro “jumps and shrugs” or deadlifts the barbell and then reverse curls it, a dolphin is run over by a Jet Ski".

[Watsonm5]

Squats this morning:

For now sticking with high bar squats. Focusing on progressive overload instead of being a puss so I did 135 warmup. 185 x 10, 195 x 10 and 205 x 10.

Here's the thing... my technique at the bottom has been corrected...i think, not sure.
What I did was instead of somewhat pushing my hips in slightly like I used to doout of the hole , I instead pushed/rotated my ass outward which for some reason helped bigtime. Not sure if this is actually correct so I need some feedback on that move. Bottom line the weight was surprisingly easy. I know I have more in reserves but didn't want to push it. ANY THOUGHTS??

Look at around 1 minute in this vid. His glutes seem to go out and pop out and upward. This is what I was referring to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs_Ej32IYgo