Ongoing Study Discussion Thread - Nutrition, Training, Health etc.

[Mrpb]

If that happens, that would be very interesting to read

Stu is another one that's on my top shelf of researchers

Yes very interesting. But I do think he will put them on ~1.2 gram protein per kg.

So we still don't know if the leucine would have an effect for people consuming 2 gram per kg. I'm skeptical of the latter.

[boo99]

Yes very interesting. But I do think he will put them on ~1.2 gram protein per kg.

So we still don't know if the leucine would have an effect for people consuming 2 gram per kg. I'm skeptical of the latter.

Skeptical of the effect at 2g because of the higher amount and the diminishing returns effect?

I'm going to continue the 5g leu 20 mins prior to a mixed mean however I'm thinking after all these months on the leu (even though I've seen apparent body composition changes) that leucine supplementing is going to work best for Pro intake that's below the needed amount for MPS optimization

I mean the other idea (20 mins prior) is just an advanced hypothesis (until it's studied more) but adding leu to food below the needed leu for optimal MPS seems to be the most valid/useful I suppose

[Mrpb]

Skeptical of the effect at 2g because of the higher amount and the diminishing returns effect?

When consuming >2 gram protein per kg and training well 24h MPS is already high. I'd be surprised if adding extra leucine will make a difference.

Jorn thinks it will. Some other people aren't.

I'm going to continue the 5g leu 20 mins prior to a mixed meal

Makes sense. Have you taken before and after pictures?

[boo99]

When consuming >2 gram protein per kg and training well 24h MPS is already high. I'd be surprised if adding extra leucine will make a difference.

Jorn thinks it will. Some other people aren't.


Makes sense. Have you taken before and after pictures?

I guess that's why Jorns idea needs more testing cause at intake that high it's likely maxed out

Didn't he even have some chart about MPS leveling off as Pro intake reached a certain level?

I remember something with an arrow going left to right, I'll have to look again

I didn't take pix specifically pre leucine supplementing but I guess I could put together some idea of then and now since I'm obsessively taking pix for IG and myself lol

I think the leucine supplementing began in June, I'd have to go back and look at the threads here and also my Amazon order history of Leucine

[blue9steel]

Cool study I just saw today:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28925405

Basically the results were that alternating short periods of cutting/maintenance was better than just straight cutting. This matches my expectations due to hormonal effects but the results were much more dramatic than I would have expected. Full text here:

https://www.nature.com/articles/ijo2017206

[Mrpb]

Didn't he even have some chart about MPS leveling off as Pro intake reached a certain level?

Not that I'm aware of.

Cool study I just saw today

I bet you've seen it before

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=174762961

[boo99]

Not that I'm aware of.

This was the one I was thinking of, where they MPS response started to level off at the higher intake so that's where I thought if they tested the 2g/kg with the leu there wouldn't be much difference since it was approaching the higher level

Maybe I'm confused but that's what I thought

[Mrpb]

This was the one I was thinking of, where they MPS response started to level off at the higher intake

yeah, but what makes you think that 5 gram leucine could change that?

[boo99]

yeah, but what makes you think that 5 gram leucine could change that?

On the contrary, I was saying originally a few posts back that it likely won't because I remembered this Jorn post

I guess we got our wires crossed here hehe, my bad mrpb

[Mrpb]

On the contrary, I was saying originally a few posts back that it likely won't because I remembered this Jorn post

I guess we got our wires crossed here hehe, my bad mrpb

The image you posted refers to whey, a fast digesting protein source. This won't be affected by the problem Jorn is describing.

Jorn's hypothesis is that when you eat mixed meals, leucine can't peak high enough because of slow digestion. This is why he thinks 5 gram leucine could have merit.

I'm skeptical of his idea because greater portions of beef did lead to higher MPS: http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/...v#.WjVrTFQ-fpA

[LactoseTolerant]

This was the one I was thinking of, where they MPS response started to level off at the higher intake so that's where I thought if they tested the 2g/kg with the leu there wouldn't be much difference since it was approaching the higher level

Maybe I'm confused but that's what I thought

That's probably the case. Following Tromellen's theories, protein can be thought of as a proxy for leucine as it concerns MPS rate. Adding 1g of leucine would be equivalent to adding 10g of whey protein (leucine is ~10% of aa content of whey protein by mass). You'd simply be moving along the curve.

[Mrpb]

Probably the best data we have, Murphy 2016. Old men. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/ea....full.pdf+html



The dark block is 0.8 gram per kg. The light one 1.2 gram per kg. Now imagine where 2 gram per g would end up. Probably very close, if not level to, the leucine supplemented groups.

[blue9steel]

I bet you've seen it before

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=174762961

Hah! Apparently so.

[boo99]

The image you posted refers to whey, a fast digesting protein source. This won't be affected by the problem Jorn is describing.

Jorn's hypothesis is that when you eat mixed meals, leucine can't peak high enough because of slow digestion. This is why he thinks 5 gram leucine could have merit.

I'm skeptical of his idea because greater portions of beef did lead to higher MPS: http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/...v#.WjVrTFQ-fpA

Oh ok, I get it now, sorry for the confusion

I forgot about the mixed meals!.....That's why I was taking it 20 mins prior to offset the lack of peaking due to the mixed meals, duh lol

Sorry I'm battling a flu today, I'm foggy

Interesting link there on the beef, send to Jorn

Probably the best data we have, Murphy 2016. Old men. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/ea....full.pdf+html



The dark block is 0.8 gram per kg. The light one 1.2 gram per kg. Now imagine where 2 gram per g would end up. Probably very close, if not level to, the leucine supplemented groups.

Another good one, thanks for posting

I LOL'd @ "free living" old men

What the hell are those? Lol

[Mrpb]

Interesting link there on the beef, send to Jorn

I have done that before. He thinks leucine can get it even higher. We need a study to prove it either way.

[boo99]

I have done that before. He thinks leucine can get it even higher. We need a study to prove it either way.

True I'm with you on that

It's interesting that others didn't jump on this theory back in June when he published that and we'd see multiple studies by now, maybe they're in the works, hopefully

It's uber important I think but I'll still say Jorn is correct but only by my own anecdotal results, which in research, mean absolutely zero

[R5GT]

An interesting observation i have found over the last few days.

I tried taking my whey protein without milk for the same reason that theoretically the casein and fat from the milk would slow digestion and thus reduce leucine peak but i have noticed that because i only have a shake for breakfast the whey on its own left me feeling REALLY hungry a couple of hours later compared to having it with milk.I can usually wait until lunch without even thinking about food at all but since having the whey with no milk for the past couple of days i have had a strong urge and craving to eat before lunch that's actually hard to control.

Today i am back to whey with milk and right on que not feeling hungry at all before lunch. Whats more interesting is that i drank even more whey to compensate for the calorie difference from the milk and protein content from the milk and still felt the significant difference on effects of hunger.

For me its not worth any theological benefit for the above reasons especially as i am trying to re comp in a small deficit.


I am however now fascinated by the difference the milk made to satiety i never imagined it would make such a significant difference.

[Mrpb]

R5GT, actually theoretically it may be better to have whey with milk (/casein) for breakfast. The leucine peak might be slightly lower but that's easily solved by having a bit more protein. The benefit of having casein with the whey is that it will stimulate MPS for a longer period.

Explained by Layne Norton: https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/the...or-casein.html

Even post workout whey with some casein may be optimal: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16937979

Jorn's hypothesis revolves more about mixed solid meals, where slow digestion MAY become an issue, although this hasn't been supported in studies.

[LactoseTolerant]

Or you can do a version of his "hack": have a whey shake first thing upon waking, go on with your morning routine and then finish with milk/rest of breakfast.

[R5GT]

Brad Schoenfeld just post this

https://www.********.com/brad.schoen...14289080761958

[chamelious]

Brad Schoenfeld just post this

https://www.********.com/brad.schoen...14289080761958

I commented on this questioning and referencing the Jorn article but didn't get a response.

[Mrpb]

Yeah leucine without the other EAAs, like they did in this study, is useless.

But that's not what Jorn is suggesting. He's saying 5 gram before you eat your protein. His strategy may provide a (small?) benefit, we simply don't know yet.

But us mortals can only speculate. Jorn however has access to tons of unpublished data from the 2 of the best protein labs in the world: Stu Phillips' and Luc van Loons.

Personally I don't use leucine supplementation though, I'd be worried what it would it would do to plasma tryptophan, which is important for mood, sleep etc.

[chamelious]

Cool. I'm giving the leucine thing a go for this bulk. Whats the current/recent opinion/studies say about creatine, i found a "5g a day" recommendation, sound right?

[Mrpb]

Cool. I'm giving the leucine thing a go for this bulk. Whats the current/recent opinion/studies say about creatine, i found a "5g a day" recommendation, sound right?

Iirc recommended creatine is 0.04 gram per kg per day.

For leucine I'd try 5 gram, something like 20 minutes before a mixed meal, 3 times per day.

[chamelious]

Iirc recommended creatine is 0.04 gram per kg per day.

For leucine I'd try 5 gram, something like 20 minutes before a mixed meal, 3 times per day.

Thanks. I've been doing just that with the leucine.

[Mrpb]

Thanks. I've been doing just that with the leucine.

let us know your results please.

So far it's only Boo who has been reporting about it.

[chamelious]

let us know your results please.

So far it's only Boo who has been reporting about it.

Will do.

[Mrpb]

Just my thoughts on this: I personally would find cutting (or recomping) even more interesting to use leucine than when bulking.

Cutting reduces MPS levels, good chance that the leucine supplementation could complete off set that or even reverse it (increase MPS).

[boo99]

Will do.

Good to hear about your Leu supplementing

As Mrpb said, no one really chimed in about using exc myself and now you

Hopefully you'll get some positive body composition, etc results from it like I apparently have

[Mrpb]

I commented on this questioning and referencing the Jorn article but didn't get a response.

Jorn has replied now.

https://www.********.com/brad.schoen...%3A%22R9%22%7D

Peak plasma leucine concentration is an important trigger for MPS. Even when you eat a high-protein diet, the actual leucine peak might not be optimized as whole meals are digested pretty slowly. This would result in a moderate leucine elevation throughout the whole day, but not necessarily in optimal leucine peaks.

Support for that concept comes from a study in which MPS is lower when whey protein is ingested in smaller sips (that do not result in a high leucine peak) versus one big bolus (resulting in a high leucine peak), even though it's the exact same protein in the same amount. For more support and details on why it MAY be beneficial, see the article I linked above.

Note that I make it very clear in that article that it's an advanced hypothesis: so I'm not suggesting it's evidence-based and fully acknowledge it might not even work out at all. I don't recommend it and most people should not even try it. It's only something that might be of interesting for those athletes that are looking for stuff that give them a competitive advantage (and is unlikely to have negative effect). BTW, you could get the same effect with whey or a hydrolyzed protein etc.

I have no problem with people being critical about it. I'm critical about it myself.

The bold part may be interesting to some.