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  1. #391
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/2/180/htm

    Recent Perspectives Regarding the Role of Dietary Protein for the Promotion of Muscle Hypertrophy with Resistance Exercise Training






    Thanks for the share Boo. I hadn't seen it yet.
    Sure thing, thnx for the above link, will look later
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    I have not read it yet.... but this could be interesting!

    "At high protein doses the suppression of MPB may interfere with skeletal muscle adaptation following resistance exercise."
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I have not read it yet.... but this could be interesting!

    "At high protein doses the suppression of MPB may interfere with skeletal muscle adaptation following resistance exercise."
    Interesting

    Could possibly change things considerably
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    Originally Posted by boo99 View Post
    Interesting

    Could possibly change things considerably
    I only skimmed it though quickly but (if I read the right part) it seems very speculative. I'm not buying it.

    Then again I may not have read the right part. I'm not very patient at the moment.
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    Originally Posted by boo99 View Post
    Interesting

    Could possibly change things considerably
    The discussion takes place in section 3.

    While consumption of greater quantities of protein per meal than what we are recommending here (i.e., ~20–30 g/meal) may suppress proteolysis, we see little evidence to support strategies that aim to specifically suppress MPB following resistance exercise due to the role MPB would play in protein remodeling during recovery from exercise and because of our relative lack of understanding of the potential consequences of doing so.
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    Originally Posted by LactoseTolerant View Post
    The discussion takes place in section 3.
    Thnx for posting that
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    Fascinating new study on training volume. Rough take away: Lowest volume was superior for muscle growth.

    The guys were pretty strong (10rm bench press ~96 kg) . 'Best' pec growth was achieved with only 2 sets flat bench, 2 sets incline per week (!).(4 sets each came close and wasn't stat. different.)

    Read the whole study for a more nuanced description.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Fascinating new study on training volume. Rough take away: Lowest volume was superior for muscle growth.

    The guys were pretty strong (10rm bench press ~96 kg) . Best growth was achieved with only 2 sets flat bench, 2 sets incline per week (!).
    Pretty amazing.

    One of my fav old time bodybuilder, Mike Mentzer, toward the end, advocated less is more.
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    Originally Posted by boo99 View Post
    Pretty amazing.

    One of my fav old time bodybuilder, Mike Mentzer, toward the end, advocated less is more.
    I've been experimenting with lower volume lately. This study makes it even more interesting. Curious if it will work.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Fascinating new study on training volume. Rough take away: Lowest volume was superior for muscle growth.

    The guys were pretty strong (10rm bench press ~96 kg) . 'Best' pec growth was achieved with only 2 sets flat bench, 2 sets incline per week (!).(4 sets each came close and wasn't stat. different.)

    Read the whole study for a more nuanced description.
    I've played around with all different volumes and I've always had the best results with a similar volume to this study. I always thought I was some weird genetic outlier that responded better to less volume.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Fascinating new study on training volume. Rough take away: Lowest volume was superior for muscle growth.

    The guys were pretty strong (10rm bench press ~96 kg) . 'Best' pec growth was achieved with only 2 sets flat bench, 2 sets incline per week (!).(4 sets each came close and wasn't stat. different.)

    Read the whole study for a more nuanced description.
    Just glanced at the tables at the end. I think the difference here may have been all of the sets for any one muscle group being performed on one day. I didn't read the paper yet so don't want to comment further, but as an example doing 7 sets of leg press followed by 7 sets of squats followed by 6 sets of stiff-legged deadlifts seems insane to me. If they split the volume up into 2 sessions per week my guess is they would have seen better results with the higher volume. Again though, I didn't read it yet.
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    Yes that was clear to me, every muscle was trained once per week. This can be seen in the tables.

    Still I was very surprised that only 4 sets was best. Same for other muscle groups: lowest volume came out best.

    Quite the difference with the Schoenfeld study (different frequency but no upper limit on per session volume for muscle growth)

    This difference may have been caused by the difference in rest times and this new study working to real failure.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Yes that was clear to me, every muscle was trained once per week. This can be seen in the tables.

    Still I was very surprised that only 4 sets was best. Same for other muscle groups: lowest volume came out best.

    Quite the difference with the Schoenfeld study (different frequency but no upper limit on per session volume for muscle growth)

    This difference may have been caused by the difference in rest times and this new study working to real failure.
    Yeah, doing 7 sets of leg press in the 12-15 rep max range followed by 7 sets of squats in the same all with 30-60 seconds rest seems absolutely brutal. I like this study a lot; while it doesn't answer the question of whether the higher volume would do better if it was split up throughout the week it does show the effects of scaling up the volume for one weekly session really well.

    Also kind of interesting is that 5 and 10 sets weekly were equivalent for the biceps/triceps/pecs but 5 sets did better than 10 for the quadriceps/glutes (for hypertrophy... regarding strength 5 and 10 sets were roughly identical for all tested lifts).

    Only other method thing I'd quibble over is that it would have made more sense to me to do 12-15 RM, 10-12 RM, 6-8 RM, 4-6 RM weeks in that order since the rest periods were so short with the 12-15 RM and 10-12 RM sets as that could have taken greater advantage of any mitochrondrial density/work capacity built up with the higher rep sets. I don't think that takes away from the results, though.
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    I found it very surprising that all 5 measured muscles favoured the lowest volume group. Sounds almost too good to be true.

    Also this line in the conclusion: "In addition, dismiss the supposed need for a wide exercise variation, that has, unfortunately, encourage dangerous machine adaptations."

    Wut haha. Gentil has built a reputation as the anti isolation exercise guy.
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    Agreed. They also state their method which includes supervision is better than the quantitative loads/sets approach, but they use a prescribed set/rep/load scheme and most people don't have constant supervision.

    If you look at their table you'll see most of the hypertrophy benefit was seen in the first 12 weeks. I'm curious to what degree the benefits can be attributed to doing something new after presumably training with higher volume for months/years prior. I do think it may be worthwhile to throw in a low volume training block if progress is stagnating on higher volume. I'd love to see this study replicated but with a 2x/week training frequency.
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    I'm curious to what degree the benefits can be attributed to doing something new after presumably training with higher volume for months/years prior.
    Good point. James Krieger has been writing a lot about this effect. It's been seen in several studies.

    I'd love to see this study replicated but with a 2x/week training frequency.
    Yep, same here.

    Another problem I have with this study: no post body comp measurements (from what I've seen, not even post weight). Other studies with high session volume have shown under eating happens in the guys doing the highest volume.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    This difference may have been caused by the difference in rest times and this new study working to real failure.
    I train close if not completely to absolute failure with occasional de-loads within a rep or 2 max of failure, and I've found my sweet spot to be about the same training volume as the study. I'm not weak either. I can bench almost twice my body weight. I know it's just n=1, but I'd be willing to bet the "high volume is always better" findings involve people who aren't training even close to absolute failure. That being said, I think the fact that calories aren't controlled in this study seriously undercuts its findings. It's impossible to draw any conclusions about optimal volume for gaining when anybody who has ever lifted deep into a cut and compared it to a surplus or even maintenance knows that the tolerable training load for your body is primarily determined by diet.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    I train close if not completely to absolute failure with occasional de-loads within a rep or 2 max of failure, and I've found my sweet spot to be about the same training volume as the study.
    Interesting. Do you mean only 4 sets chest, once per week?

    What's your actual 10rm benchpress? (not calculated)
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    Very interesting study and makes me wonder very much about the people like eric helmes who say to only use the minimum amount of volume you need to progress on.

    Interesting observation from my self, as somebody who has done high volume for a long time, i found switching to training once per week lead to strength LOSS, for me this was a simple deload but the principle applies, i took a week off and my first day back i had significant strength loss, this has happend every time i have taken 1 week off, BUT i am somebody who has done high volume. high frequency for a long time, my body must have adapted to it and for some reason taking a week off had lead to strength loss.

    I am now curious to what would happen if i switched to lower volume and frequency for a longer period of time, would my body adapt back and enable me to continue to make strength gains from just once per week hmm.
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    Originally Posted by SubWooferCooker View Post
    I am now curious to what would happen if i switched to lower volume and frequency for a longer period of time, would my body adapt back and enable me to continue to make strength gains from just once per week hmm.
    I think you're right, the body will adapt. I do still think that 2x per week will be slightly better than 1x per week.

    Maybe twice per week ~3-5 hard sets per muscle group will optimal for a lot of people. I'm trying it out now.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I think you're right, the body will adapt. I do still think that 2x per week will be slightly better than 1x per week.

    Maybe twice per week ~3-5 hard sets per muscle group will optimal for a lot of people. I'm trying it out now.
    I'm gonna try this starting in July. I'll need to ramp up my studying time for my board exam I'm taking in October and this will be a perfect opportunity.
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    I think the key to make lower volume work is to go to real failure. I've been doing it for the last 2 days, low volume to real failure. I'm not sure if that's why I feel pretty much drained. We'll see.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I think the key to make lower volume work is to go to real failure. I've been doing it for the last 2 days, low volume to real failure. I'm not sure if that's why I feel pretty much drained. We'll see.
    This style of training is really popular in the UK. Mainly working on 2x sets on compounds with a top set and a back off. I've been running it for a while and training at that intensity takes its toll. Its great for people that are strong, can recover suitably and have all their ducks in a row - but if you have a life outside of the gym like a day job and a child it makes life pretty difficult in my experience. Even with regular deloads I felt pretty battered outside of the gym. I think it takes experience to train with that intensity. I feel more suited to splitting volume and not pushing to failure so regularly.

    On reflection I had no place, experience or strength to be using that method.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I think the key to make lower volume work is to go to real failure. I've been doing it for the last 2 days, low volume to real failure. I'm not sure if that's why I feel pretty much drained. We'll see.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9hKib94DV0 AJ Morris touches on it here it at 41:00
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    I'm currently slacking at the gym due to yard work needs and been doing only 2 days a week Fierce 5 intermediate (always upper A so 3 sets of flat and incline bench press, alternating lower A/B). I was still able to increase reps/weight on chest, legs and abs however not on curls and pull downs. Albeit I seem to struggle progressing on curls and pull downs even when sticking to the 4 day Fierce 5 script.

    Mrpb: during labrum surgery recovery my surgeon advised me to leave a few reps in the tank while training and never to failure. I found it was a joke to me as I always went to failure before. IME, going to failure is alot more draining and requires longer recovery between sets. My gf would laugh at me as I take 2-3min breaks between sets. I then had her try training to failure and she quickly switched back to leaving reps in the tank and stopped teasing me. Ain't that some chit lol.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I think the key to make lower volume work is to go to real failure. I've been doing it for the last 2 days, low volume to real failure. I'm not sure if that's why I feel pretty much drained. We'll see.
    I'm only 25 but my workouts destroy me. Ever since I started lifting when I was 14, I always went to failure or as close as I could on each set and always needed 3-5 mins rest between sets plus a full week to recover muscle groups. I started lifting on a plan that my dad was doing, and he was formerly a powerlifter & bodybuilder in the bro-split era. The times I played around with higher volume always resulted in less results. I did still train to failure instead of going easier on myself, though.
    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Interesting. Do you mean only 4 sets chest, once per week?

    What's your actual 10rm benchpress? (not calculated)
    Yes, 4 on bench. On a typical "chest/tris" day, I'll do 3 working sets of bench in the 6-10 rep range after a light warm-up with a final set with slightly lower weight AMRAP. I'll also do 3 sets of dips with around 70 lbs added in a 14-20 rep range, followed by 3 sets of machine flies and tricep pushdowns to failure in the 8-12 range. I'll take 3-5 minutes rest on bench/dips but only somewhere around 60-90 secs on the accessories. My 10 RM on bench for a first working set is 225.
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    @Strawng, thanks for sharing. Just in case you haven't read the study yet I suggest doing so. In the study the lowest volume group was only doing 4 total sets for chest per week (2 flat + 2 incline bench) and 1 set shoulder press. That's all. No chest or triceps isolation. And they saw the best growth (although the difference with 8 sets chest group wasn't stat. sig. iirc). Their 10rm bench went from 211 to 264 pounds in 24 weeks.
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    @Strawgn, What you're doing is 10 sets for chest + additional triceps work. So a lot more. Now this may be optimal for you or not, but what this study suggests it's likely you'll get better results by doing less. And who knows you may find that you'll feel better after as well.

    PS. I had to split my post over 2 posts otherwise it wouldn't let me post it.
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    That volume study is indeed fascinating, They make a very interesting point that i have never considered previously where they say...

    "These results might suggest that, if higher volumes were sustained for a longer period, over training might ensue, impairing results"

    I have never thought about this but its extremely interesting when you consider the relative short duration of studies compared to how long people train with higher volume for much longer periods of time than the duration of a study.

    Part of me is scared to give this a go, i train with relatively high volume in that i do full body work outs 3 times per week. The idea of taking a week off between work outs seems like forever, i was under the impression MPS returns to baseline after a couple of days max and thus i am wasting 4-5 days worth of time i could be growing. I am intrigued to know how my body would feel getting all that rest though, i seem to recall when i first started lifting i was training far less frequency and i felt a lot more rested and energetic despite not being as strong back then, i wonder if i could be over trained i haven't taken more than a few days off from the gym in YEARS.
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    Another interesting study is mentioned in the discussion:

    In agreement with our results, Ostrowski et al.2 showed that, after 10 weeks of training, changes in 1RM in the bench press and squat, vertical jump, bench throw, rectus femoris MT and triceps brachii MT were not significantly different between groups that performed 3, 6, or 12 sets per muscle group per week. Interestingly, even though there was no difference in testosterone:cortisol ratio among groups, the groups that performed three and six sets per week had a trend to increase testosterone:cortisol ratio, while the trend was for a decrease in the group that performed 12 sets per weeks. These results might suggest that, if higher volumes were sustained for a longer period, overtraining might ensue, impairing results. The present results are in agreement with the findings that a threshold effect might exist for the anabolic responses to exercise volume during resistance training11. Considering the potential for overtraining further, in the study of Haas et al.22 the dropout rate of the group that trained with higher volumes was 25%, due to low attendance or injury, while there were no dropouts in the lower volume group. Similarly, the present study showed dropouts only in G15 and G20, which might be an indicative that increasing training volume, besides not bringing increased results, might also cause attrition.
    "Overtraining" with higher volumes (impairing test:cortisol ratio) might be a real thing, even with 12 sets per week per muscle group.
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