Optimising Protein Intake - Advanced Strategies

[Heterodox]

so as long as i get 3-4 protein rich meals per day i could theoretically get all of my carbs and fat's in ONE MEAL and it would be just as effective as spreading them out over the day?

[Mrpb]

so as long as i get 3-4 protein rich meals per day i could theoretically get all of my carbs and fat's in ONE MEAL and it would be just as effective as spreading them out over the day?

~4-5 protein rich meals or shakes for maximising gains. Carbs and fat when it allows you to feel, perform and sleep well.

I doubt you'll get optimal performance and well being with all carbs and fat in one meal.

[R5GT]

so as long as i get 3-4 protein rich meals per day i could theoretically get all of my carbs and fat's in ONE MEAL and it would be just as effective as spreading them out over the day?

Reminded me of a study a came across a while ago, have linked to another thread as not to hijack and take this protein related thread off topic.

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1535696001

[Heterodox]

How much will having whey protein mixed with oatmeal and milk in the morning slow down leucine peak and delay mps? would it be less optimal than having a fast digesting whey after fasting over night during sleep?

[Mrpb]

How much will having whey protein mixed with oatmeal and milk in the morning slow down leucine peak and delay mps?

It stands to reason that oats (soluble fiber) and casein will slow down leucine absorption somewhat. This would result in a somewhat lower leucine peak.However, this is easily solved by simply having more protein.

If you're into squeezing every last percent of potential muscle gain out of your diet it would make sense to have at least 3 gram leucine in your breakfast.

[Mrpb]

New review by Stu Phillips: Recent Perspectives Regarding the Role of Dietary Protein for the Promotion of Muscle Hypertrophy with Resistance Exercise Training

http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/2/180/htm

(haven't read it yet but Stu is usually good to read)
________________

I'll post this here too: Some people have thought that they must eat 4-5 meals with >2.5 gram leucine in order to gain muscle. This is not the case. It may be optimal but that does not mean it's necessary. Explanation: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1539492881

[boo99]

Thank you for the share Mrpb

Read thru most of it and absorbed what I could

Some of it we were already saying here on the forum:


As Alan stated in the meal timing post, daily protein intake is the most important variable for MPS


Cutting needs higher Pro intake, the leaner the higher intake of the recommended amounts of 2.3–3.1 g/kg/day

RE was effective at offsetting the effects that cutting has on MPS


Meals eaten 3-5 hrs to maximize MPS


From Stu's study:

....the most salient variable determining the effectiveness of protein supplementation on gains in muscle size during resistance training is still total daily protein intake.

Participation in resistance exercise is sufficient to counteract the decrements observed in MPS following an acute period of energy restriction

...Given that the muscle becomes refractory to the presence of amino acids, such that MPS returns to basal levels after ~3 h despite sustained hyperaminoacidemia, protein meals should be separated by ~3–5 h to maximize MPS over the waking period.

I'm confused about that refractory period he speaks of here

Didn't another study say it's irrelevant since RE increased MPS to up to 48hrs?

[Nedo]

New review by Stu Phillips: Recent Perspectives Regarding the Role of Dietary Protein for the Promotion of Muscle Hypertrophy with Resistance Exercise Training

http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/2/180/htm

(haven't read it yet but Stu is usually good to read)
________________

I'll post this here too: Some people have thought that they must eat 4-5 meals with >2.5 gram leucine in order to gain muscle. This is not the case. It may be optimal but that does not mean it's necessary. Explanation: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1539492881

Thanks for the link. Very good read guys and yes it does touch on many things we already know, ie) increase protein intake if losing LBM on a cut. In my own experience, I was consuming approx .75g protein per lb and increasing protein only 10-20g a day stopped LBM loss.

[Brahfessa]

I was consuming approx .75g protein per lb and increasing protein only 10-20g a day stopped LBM loss.

How did you measure LBM loss to determine this?

[R5GT]

I'm confused about that refractory period he speaks of here

Didn't another study say it's irrelevant since RE increased MPS to up to 48hrs?

Literally the first thing that popped out to me while reading it. I was wondering the same thing iirc it was Jorn Trommelen that said the refractory period was irreverent to people who RE, But then Stuart Phillips is also regarded as somebody on the leading edge of this so confusing to hear one person say its not relevant than another say it is. If it is relevant then you could be wasting protein eating too often and if its not relevant you could be wasting time activating MPS by waiting too long between meals. Either way it may only be a small % of difference but this is about optimizing things after all.

[Mrpb]

Cutting needs higher Pro intake, the leaner the higher intake of the recommended amounts of 2.3–3.1 g/kg/day

It's phrased in a funny way. "protein intakes of ~2.3–3.1 g/kg/day have been advocated."

I wonder if he's referring to Eric Helms review. Identical numbers but they were based on FFM. 2.3-3.1g/kg of FFM
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24092765

I'm confused about that refractory period he speaks of here

Didn't another study say it's irrelevant since RE increased MPS to up to 48hrs?

Yes that's what Jorn said.

[boo99]

Literally the first thing that popped out to me while reading it. I was wondering the same thing iirc it was Jorn Trommelen that said the refractory period was irreverent to people who RE, But then Stuart Phillips is also regarded as somebody on the leading edge of this so confusing to hear one person say its not relevant than another say it is. If it is relevant then you could be wasting protein eating too often and if its not relevant you could be wasting time activating MPS by waiting too long between meals. Either way it may only be a small % of difference but this is about optimizing things after all.

Yea we need the two of them to put their heads together and discuss

It's phrased in a funny way. "protein intakes of ~2.3–3.1 g/kg/day have been advocated."

I wonder if he's referring to Eric Helms review. Identical numbers but they were based on FFM. 2.3-3.1g/kg of FFM
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24092765



Yes that's what Jorn said.

I do recall Eric and those numbers

When I read that I was thinking I saw that somewheres

Ahh it was Jorn, right, who was saying that about the refractory period


Now if we can get both Stu and Jorn together to talk about that!



ETA:

Werent these refractory studies based on some kinda lab results or something of that nature?


If so, how could the two of them come up with different conclusions?

[JornT]

Yea we need the two of them to put their heads together and discuss




I do recall Eric and those numbers

When I read that I was thinking I saw that somewheres

Ahh it was Jorn, right, who was saying that about the refractory period


Now if we can get both Stu and Jorn together to talk about that!



ETA:

Werent these refractory studies based on some kinda lab results or something of that nature?


If so, how could the two of them come up with different conclusions?

The refractionary period is specifically for the muscle protein synthetic response to protein ingestion: the idea is that feedings induced MPS turns off after a short period. The refractionary period is not claimed to affect the the muscle protein synthetic response to exercise: MPS goes up and than very slowly down over the next 24-72 h.

The evidence for the refractionary period is not super strong in my opinion. Also all evidence for it has been at rest (no exercise). I'm not convinced there truly is a refractionary period at rest (but it is possible). And I'm even less convinced there truly is a refractionary period after exercise (and you're always in a post-exercise state at the effects of exercise can last up to 72 h).

I've described my views on the muscle full effect in detail here:
http://www.nutritiontactics.com/meas...le_full_effect

[boo99]

The refractionary period is specifically for the muscle protein synthetic response to protein ingestion: the idea is that feedings induced MPS turns off after a short period. The refractionary period is not claimed to affect the the muscle protein synthetic response to exercise: MPS goes up and than very slowly down over the next 24-72 h.

The evidence for the refractionary period is not super strong in my opinion. Also all evidence for it has been at rest (no exercise). I'm not convinced there truly is a refractionary period at rest (but it is possible). And I'm even less convinced there truly is a refractionary period after exercise (and you're always in a post-exercise state at the effects of exercise can last up to 72 h).

I've described my views on the muscle full effect in detail here:
http://www.nutritiontactics.com/meas...le_full_effect

Thank you Jorn for your explanation here, much appreciated

[blue9steel]

Even Eric Helms who recommended higher protein intakes has admitted that there's no good evidence showing that you need more protein for muscle retention during deficit.

However, it's still possible that we might need more protein during deficit. There's only 1 study that has shown benefits for muscle retention, however this study has some important shortcomings. There's a need for more studies in well trained population.

I had to dig back through my old notes, but I knew I had seen a few studies that suggested higher requirements while cutting:

Phillips 2011 1.3-1.8g/kg max protein synthesis, 1.8-2.0g/kg prevent lbm loss in deficit
Lemon 1995 Inverse relationship between energy intake and protein requirements
Munro 1964 2g N (1g N = 6.25g Protein) for each 1000 calories surplus/deficit
Chiang 1988 1.94g N for each 1000 calories surplus/deficit

I was looking into daily protein requirements a the time and haven't re-read them for a number of years but my notes suggest there may be something there worth looking at if someone has time for review.

[blue9steel]

Would ingesting 2.5g of leucine be best as a supplement, directly before eating to ensure a spike of serum leucine, or is it sufficient to just get enough quality protein with leucine in it?

Leucine basically turns on the factory, you still need protein if you want to build anything.

[Mrpb]

I had to dig back through my old notes, but I knew I had seen a few studies that suggested higher requirements while cutting:

Phillips 2011 1.3-1.8g/kg max protein synthesis, 1.8-2.0g/kg prevent lbm loss in deficit
Lemon 1995 Inverse relationship between energy intake and protein requirements
Munro 1964 2g N (1g N = 6.25g Protein) for each 1000 calories surplus/deficit
Chiang 1988 1.94g N for each 1000 calories surplus/deficit

None of these studies include data that more than 0.8 gram per lb has benefits for muscle retention.

Here's one study that showed benefits of very high intake but could be confounded by better timing: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28415067

Then there's the Pasiakos study where 1.6 gram per kg actually did better (!) than 2.4 gram per kg. Perhaps they benefited from having more carbs.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23739654

[R5GT]

Ok so i am still a little confused about this refractionary period, What is the difference between this refractionary period that supposedly does or doesn't exist and the point at which excess protein is oxidized and not used for muscle building?

If 40g protein is enough to maximize MPS in one sitting what if i eat 60 or 80g etc?, is that extra protein just oxidized and not used for muscle building? if so then is that not classed as a refractionary period in its self? If eating more than 40g is wasted then there is a time which you have to wait to eat more protein to avoid it being oxidised/wasted? ie a refractionary period.

[Mrpb]

A study by Wolfe showed that a mixed meal with 40 gram protein has the same effect on MPS as a meal with 70 gram protein, measured over the first 5 hours. So if you're eating every 5 hours there's no point in eating more than 40 gram per meal (even less protein could be enough for young guys, depending on meal composition).

The question that the refractory period deals with, for example, is: could you eat 30 gram first and then 2 hours later another 30 gram? Would this be better for MPS than eating 40 gram at once? If the refractory period is a real thing to worry about the answer would be 'no' because the idea is that MPS needs to get back to baseline first.

Jorn isn't buying this theory and neither am I. The study where this theory is based on has flaws and there are longitudinal studies that go against it.

But let's be practical: if you can plan it leave at least ~3-4 hours between meals. ~4-5 meals is probably enough to maximise MPS. And if people prefer eating 6 meals, spaced every 3 hours, that's probably fine too.

[R5GT]

A study by Wolfe showed that a mixed meal with 40 gram protein has the same effect on MPS as a meal with 70 gram protein, measured over the first 5 hours.

Ahh i see, That's very interesting then, Did they measure the effect on MPS after 5 hours as well? or did they stop at 5 hours? If the latter do we even know how long you can prolong maximized MPS from a single meal? so while 40g and 70g has the same effect over 5 hours could 70g could be better when measured over a longer period of time greater than 5 hours?

This is interesting to me because i train in the evening before bed and take 40g protein post work out from casein, which is also what jorn recommended for pre sleep protein but considering i am in bed for 9 and a half hours, i am wondering if more than 40g protein post work out pre bed would be better.

[R5GT]

I think i have found the study you were referring too, 40g vs 70g

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4675798/

This is suggesting that while MPS rates were similar overall net protein balance was greater in the 70g group because the higher protein amount suppressed more protein breakdown.

In conclusion, whole body net protein balance improves with greater protein intake above that previously suggested to maximally stimulating muscle protein synthesis because of a simultaneous reduction in protein breakdown.

We found that both levels of protein intake resulted in a positive whole body NB (i.e., anabolic response) and that the higher level of protein intake resulted in a significantly greater anabolic response than the previously described “optimal” amount of protein (20, 25). The greater NB with the higher protein intake was achieved largely through a greater reduction in PB and, to a lesser extent, through a greater increase in PS than with the lower protein intake.
According this this 70g is better than 40g because it suppresses more protein breakdown. It also claims that net protein balance was SIGNIFICANTLY greater in the higher protein group.

The main contributing factor to achieving positive NB appears to be reductions in PB, not in increases in PS, as shown in our previous findings

EDIT just noticed jorn spoke on this

this study gave the wrong impression, because whole-body protein breakdown was mistaken for muscle protein breakdown (the latter was not measured in this study). In case you’re wondering, this study did measure muscle protein synthesis. Both the 40 gram and the 70 gram dose were equally effective at stimulating muscle protein synthesis. So this study doesn’t indicate that you need more than 40 gram of protein each meal as an athlete

If the latter was not measured then we still don't actually know if 70g is better or not, which leads back to my previous question, If 40g and 70g has the same effect over 5 hours could 70g could be better when measured over a longer period of time greater than 5 hours?

[R5GT]

Pfft never mind ^^ just noticed this post.

I think I don't understand your first question.

What I can say is that 70 gram protein in one meal has been compared with 40 gram protein. There was no difference in MPS measured over the first 5 hours. However, it's likely that 70 gram protein will be slightly better after 5 hours. So for a dinner as last meal, before an overnight fast, 70 gram might outperform 40 gram.

[Mrpb]

If the latter was not measured then we still don't actually know if 70g is better or not

It was measured, check figure 4 (in fact 40 gram was slightly better for MPS but the difference was small).

There's another study where 90 gram protein failed to outperform 30 gram protein over 5 hours (iirc) but the techniques to measure MPS weren't state of the art. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19699838

[ThinkAndGoHam]

The Pre Sleep study showed elevated protein synthesis after 7.5 hours from 40g protein. However i am not sure how high above baseline that elevation was and how that compares the the elevation at 5hours. Can anybody expand on that?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22330017

[Mrpb]

The Pre Sleep study showed elevated protein synthesis after 7.5 hours from 40g protein.

How did you conclude that?

[ThinkAndGoHam]

How did you conclude that?

That's the impression i got when i read it,

"Protein ingestion before sleep increased whole-body protein synthesis rates (311 ± 8 vs 246 ± 9 μmol·kg per 7.5 h)"

A lot of the jargon used in the studies is alien to me hence me asking for people in the know to expand.

[Mrpb]

That's the impression i got when i read it,

"Protein ingestion before sleep increased whole-body protein synthesis rates (311 ± 8 vs 246 ± 9 μmol·kg per 7.5 h)"

A lot of the jargon used in the studies is alien to me hence me asking for people in the know to expand.

Two things to keep in mind: when they say protein ingestion stimulated PS rates over 7.5 hours, it doesn't necessarily mean that PS rates after 7.5 were still elevated.

The other thing is that whole body protein synthesis is something else than muscle protein synthesis.

Would MPS still be meaningfully elevated 7.5 hours after 40 gram casein protein ingestion? Unlikely IMO. A good time to have breakfast.

[ThinkAndGoHam]

Two things to keep in mind: when they say protein ingestion stimulated PS rates over 7.5 hours, it doesn't necessarily mean that PS rates after 7.5 were still elevated.

The other thing is that whole body protein synthesis is something else than muscle protein synthesis.

Would MPS still be meaningfully elevated 7.5 hours after 40 gram casein protein ingestion? Unlikely IMO. A good time to have breakfast.

Maybe i phrased it the wrong way then, but the point i was making was it stated that they measured PS 7.5hours AFTER taking 40g whey. To be correct then "AT" 7.5hrs protein synthesis was elevated. Not sure why they mention this if whole body protein synthesis results are not relevant then.

The other study mentioned earlier in the thread with 40g and 70g showed MPS still elevated at 5 hours though with no difference between each dose, if 40g had a lower response at 5 hours than the 70g at 5 hours it would make sense but they were both equal, based on that i don't think its that unlikely for it to still be elevated 2.5 hours later to match the 7.5 hours from this study.

[Mrpb]

To be correct then "AT" 7.5hrs protein synthesis was elevated.

Unless I'm overlooking something I don't see them saying that. When protein synthesis is elevated over 7.5 hours it doesn't necessarily mean that PS is still up at 7.5 hours.

The other study mentioned earlier in the thread with 40g and 70g showed MPS still elevated at 5 hours...

Same as the other study, "over" =/= "at".

Not sure why they mention this if whole body protein synthesis results are not relevant then.

Not relevant for muscle. Explained by Jorn: http://www.nutritiontactics.com/meas...tein_synthesis

ps. there's no doubt that MPS rates 7.5 hours after protein ingestion are going to be very low.

[OldFartTom]

Great post!
Wow, maybe a big glass of warm milk before bed, the old advice (which I don't currently follow) is going to be muscle beneficial as well as good for sleep.