No pain, no gain...how much pain?

[thethinman0007]

Yes, one thing I have always hated most about serious weight training is a situation where you need to PUSH HARDER to tear the muscles...yet it you work out TOO HARD...you just ruptured some biceps, snapped some tensions, etc.

I basically carefully gauge when to end a workout with just being so tired I can't lift anymore and if my arms are so swollen, they feel like they would explode if pushed just one rep further...that is when I stop.

I'm pretty sure this is a really amateur way to go about building muscle...but I really don't want to permanently damage my body.

So if I do a really intense workout and my arms are swollen tight and it feels really good...it this actually a ****, no gain workout because I am not in pain? And if I literally need to be in pain during and after a workout...exactly how much pain? How thin is the line between pain and gain and seriously destroying your muscles? I have always wondered about this...

[WolfRose7]

no pain no gain is macho bs.

Follow a proper program and eat for your goals

[34AndyUK]

I think you're misinformed. Effort and intensity are important factors but pain absolutely isn't required or advantageous. In fact, if you do push yourself to the absolute limits on a regular basis you're likely to hinder your progress.

Get on a proven and recommended program.

[wowter]

^ what those guys said.

[SuffolkPunch]

You need to know the difference between exertion and pain. Especially when you are new, it will be more easy to pick up a strain.

A good novice routine usually directs you to start with weights that a little lighter than the maximum you can handle for the sets and reps and increase gradually over time.

By the way, "tearing up your muscles" is not the mechanism for growth although some damage at a microscopic level is expected, it's not the main driver (which is actually the volume of work you do with an adequately heavy resistance)

[CommitmentRulz]

I think that the idea of "No pain, no gain" is really one of effort, intensity, and commitment. The idea is that you have to work hard (and smart) and that it's not "fun" - and some equate the last few reps and having to work to push them out as painful. Don't be afraid in the gym - like inguries are looming all around you or something.

Also, I think you're idea that if you work too hard your going to start spontaneously tearing muscles all over your body as misguided. Based on your description of your workout, I'll bet it needs some significant improvement.

[health4life24]

There's a difference between pain as in your muscles are sore it hurts to do another rep, etc., and pain because you're risking injury. That phrase can be misleading.

[Farley1324]

Yes, one thing I have always hated most about serious weight training is a situation where you need to PUSH HARDER to tear the muscles...yet it you work out TOO HARD...you just ruptured some biceps, snapped some tensions, etc.

I basically carefully gauge when to end a workout with just being so tired I can't lift anymore and if my arms are so swollen, they feel like they would explode if pushed just one rep further...that is when I stop.

I'm pretty sure this is a really amateur way to go about building muscle...but I really don't want to permanently damage my body.

So if I do a really intense workout and my arms are swollen tight and it feels really good...it this actually a ****, no gain workout because I am not in pain? And if I literally need to be in pain during and after a workout...exactly how much pain? How thin is the line between pain and gain and seriously destroying your muscles? I have always wondered about this...

I think you need to forget most or all of what you think you know

[Zocas]

I think the idea of no pain no gain is when your sore the next day after a workout. There is nothing wrong with that. You can work through it or wait until you recover 100%.
If your feeling pain while lifting something is wrong unless your speaking about the burn. There is nothing wrong with the burn bro. I like it.
You can work to failure. Meaning to the point where you can't do another rep, not for the pain, but because you have No more energy. No one can say anything different. People have being doing it forever. People can argue it isn't the best or most efficient method, but it is just their point of view. It will not hurt you. You can gain just fine with or without going to failure.

[TAWS6]

No pain, no brain.

[thethinman0007]

Well, I definitely workout enough to feel really sore the next day or even over the next couple days. So I must be doing something right.

With regard to pain, it doesn't just refer to soreness right? For example, I was watching this workout tutorial where this professional trainer was talking about making sure you have proper form and that you are doing full extensions. At one point in the video he mentions that when you are doing bicep curls, make sure that you are contracting your bicep as tight as you can and that your arm goes all the way down on the negative.

Of course this is all common sense, but I wanted to mention that when I was doing bicep curls I had no pain when fully straightening my arm, but my bicep was hurting when I was contracting them when squeezing my arm in a tight upward curl...you aren't really supposed to be flexing the muscle while doing curls right? I never flex, but I do make sure that I'm doing full extensions. It just seemed like a bit much the way he described that you are supposed to squeeze as tight as you can...wouldn't that cause an injury?

[Farley1324]

Well, I definitely workout enough to feel really sore the next day or even over the next couple days. So I must be doing something right.

That's not how it works. Getting sore doesn't mean you are doing it right, or doing it wrong. It does probably mean your frequency is too low.

With regard to pain, it doesn't just refer to soreness right? For example, I was watching this workout tutorial where this professional trainer was talking about making sure you have proper form and that you are doing full extensions. At one point in the video he mentions that when you are doing bicep curls, make sure that you are contracting your bicep as tight as you can and that your arm goes all the way down on the negative.

Of course this is all common sense, but I wanted to mention that when I was doing bicep curls I had no pain when fully straightening my arm, but my bicep was hurting when I was contracting them when squeezing my arm in a tight upward curl...you aren't really supposed to be flexing the muscle while doing curls right? I never flex, but I do make sure that I'm doing full extensions.

It's a bicep curl, does it really matter?

Technically you can't flex muscles, you flex joints. Your bicep must contract in order to perform a bicep curl, that's how muscles exert force on joints and move the weight, they contract (what people call flexing is contracting)

[thethinman0007]

Ok, this is a little off topic, but I don't want to keep making new threads so I will post it here.

How can someone with a super fast metabolism gain because I'm always pooping out calories and once in a while vomiting them out. Just today I ate about a 2,000+cal breakfast with a weight gain shake included.

I didn't vomit until I did a mini workout about 1.5 hours after finishing my meal which I guess wasn't enough time to wait after eating?

Anyway, I plan to do a more serious upper body work out tonight and I plan to pour a few tablespoons of olive oil on my dinner to make up for the lost calories from this morning.

I didn't vomit a lot, it was only a couple handfuls and I didn't feel dehydrated and weak afterwards...so maybe I didn't lose too many calories?

[SuffolkPunch]

Ok, this is a little off topic, but I don't want to keep making new threads so I will post it here.

How can someone with a super fast metabolism gain because I'm always pooping out calories and once in a while vomiting them out. Just today I ate about a 2,000+cal breakfast with a weight gain shake included.

I didn't vomit until I did a mini workout about 1.5 hours after finishing my meal which I guess wasn't enough time to wait after eating?

Anyway, I plan to do a more serious upper body work out tonight and I plan to pour a few tablespoons of olive oil on my dinner to make up for the lost calories from this morning.

I didn't vomit a lot, it was only a couple handfuls and I didn't feel dehydrated and weak afterwards...so maybe I didn't lose too many calories?

- eat more calorie dense foods. Provided that you already have your nutrient needs (prtotein, fatty acids, vitamins, minerals) you can add "junk" foods for this purpose

- eat foods that you can easily digest - and have more small meals if necessary. It's not normal to vomit BTW.

It shouldn't be hard to eat over 2k - I usually stuggle to stay under 3k...

[TheGymJim]

It shouldn't be hard to eat over 2k - I usually stuggle to stay under 3k...

In a BREAKFAST?! What the hell are you eating mate :'D

[SuffolkPunch]

In a BREAKFAST?! What the hell are you eating mate :'D

I thought he meant per day.

Yeah, nobody should have to eat that much in a single meal.

Usually guys who have trouble gaining weight eat the occasional big meal but aren't consistent - on average they are hovering around maintenance. Homeostasis...

[thethinman0007]

- eat more calorie dense foods. Provided that you already have your nutrient needs (prtotein, fatty acids, vitamins, minerals) you can add "junk" foods for this purpose

- eat foods that you can easily digest - and have more small meals if necessary. It's not normal to vomit BTW.

It shouldn't be hard to eat over 2k - I usually stuggle to stay under 3k...

I'm making sure to eat a lot of calorie dense/protein dense foods. I actually only vomited because I was stupid enough to do a mini exercise to get a pump before going out. That was just stupid and I won't be doing that ever again.

There is this free app called myfitnesspal by Under Armour I installed on my phone. Have you heard of it before? It recommends I consume 2,160cal a day...for weight gain.

Don't you think the recommended daily calorie intake for me is a little low? I'm almost 58kg now (from 53.7kg a couple weeks ago).

This has to be entirely too low because I'm trying to build muscle as well. I'm consuming about 3,100cal a day.

[TheGymJim]

I'm making sure to eat a lot of calorie dense/protein dense foods. I actually only vomited because I was stupid enough to do a mini exercise to get a pump before going out. That was just stupid and I won't be doing that ever again.

There is this free app called myfitnesspal by Under Armour I installed on my phone. Have you heard of it before? It recommends I consume 2,160cal a day...for weight gain.

Don't you think the recommended daily calorie intake for me is a little low? I'm almost 58kg now (from 53.7kg a couple weeks ago).

This has to be entirely too low because I'm trying to build muscle as well. I'm consuming about 3,100cal a day.

Pretty sure everyone on this site has heard of myfitnesspal haha.

It's a good tracker but I wouldn't necessarily take the caloric/macro requirements at face value.

Go on the nutrition forums. There's loads of stuff there on how to calculate TDEE and then you slap some extra calories on when you're bulking. And if you're really skinny, go ahead and throw in even more calories for good measure. You'll have the leeway to get away with it easily.

[thethinman0007]

Are short but really intense 15-20 minute workouts effective for weight gain? I keep reading online that they are effective for weight loss, which is the opposite of what I'm trying to do.

I make sure that I'm doing full extensions and that my form is really good. Sometimes I just get too busy with work and other things in my life to have time for 45 minute exercises all the time...

I just did about 20 minutes of tricep dips and bicep curls but I took like 30 second - 1 minute breaks in between each set (wasn't counting just going until failure).

[TheGymJim]

Honestly, dude, if you want to be packing on muscle mass, you're gonna need longer sessions with more volume rather than short sessions with more intensity.

It's simple if you look at it like this:

For hypertophy (mass building) it's basically just about the total amount of weight you shift in a session.

For strength training, it's more about intensity (lifting heavier weights)

Example:

For strength training, I might bench the following:

Set 1: 65kg x 5 reps
Set 2: 70kg x 5 reps
Set 3: 75kg x 5 reps

This is great for strength, because I'm pushing myself hard on heavy weights and it's very high intensity for me. But my total weight lifted is 1050kg

Now, for hypertrophy, I might lift the following:

Set 1: 50kg x 10 reps
Set 2: 55kg x 10 reps
Set 3: 60kg x 10 reps

That means I've shifted 1650kg in the same amount of sets. That's more than half a metric tonne more total weight than if I was training for strength.

So yeah, it's about volume rather than intensity when you're looking to add mass. And to lift more total weight, you'll typically spend more total time in the gym.

And you're gonna need to eat more, but not try and cram 2000 calories into a single meal and make yourself throw up. Spread it out, man!

[thethinman0007]

Honestly, dude, if you want to be packing on muscle mass, you're gonna need longer sessions with more volume rather than short sessions with more intensity.

It's simple if you look at it like this:

For hypertophy (mass building) it's basically just about the total amount of weight you shift in a session.

For strength training, it's more about intensity (lifting heavier weights)

Example:

For strength training, I might bench the following:

Set 1: 65kg x 5 reps
Set 2: 70kg x 5 reps
Set 3: 75kg x 5 reps

This is great for strength, because I'm pushing myself hard on heavy weights and it's very high intensity for me. But my total weight lifted is 1050kg

Now, for hypertrophy, I might lift the following:

Set 1: 50kg x 10 reps
Set 2: 55kg x 10 reps
Set 3: 60kg x 10 reps

That means I've shifted 1650kg in the same amount of sets. That's more than half a metric tonne more total weight than if I was training for strength.

So yeah, it's about volume rather than intensity when you're looking to add mass. And to lift more total weight, you'll typically spend more total time in the gym.

And you're gonna need to eat more, but not try and cram 2000 calories into a single meal and make yourself throw up. Spread it out, man!

Well, I usually make sure that although my breaks between sets are short, that I'm not working out with too much intensity or doing cardio. I am making sure to lift my current dumbbell which is only 8kg and I do my bodyweight exercises slowly.

I'm a really small guy, but I have noticed that within just a month or so, the 8kg weight went from decently heavy to curl a couple dozen times, to super light. Just a couple days ago, I was curling it to no end. I'm going to buy some heavier dumbbells.

I also often wear a slightly heavy backpack with books loaded into it when doing various push ups to makes things more challenging.

I have noticed my weight has jumped from 53.7kg to 58.1kg. I have made sure to weigh myself on an empty stomach in the morning after using the toilet and naked for an accurate reading lol.

[Farley1324]

Well, I usually make sure that although my breaks between sets are short, that I'm not working out with too much intensity or doing cardio.

By definition if your breaks between sets are short, your intensity isn't too high, since intensity is %1RM (aka heavier weights are higher intensity and heavier weights require longer rests to complete)

[thethinman0007]

By definition if your breaks between sets are short, your intensity isn't too high, since intensity is %1RM (aka heavier weights are higher intensity and heavier weights require longer rests to complete)

Oh sorry, I mixed up the terminology. Yes, I have been going too much volume and not enough intensity. Thanks.

[thethinman0007]

I wanted to ask a random question, but I don't want to make a new thread about it.

Here in Japan, there are a lot of these yakiniku (fried meat) restaurants, which are these places where you cook your own meat and vegetables.

It is my favorite type of meal in the world and I'm addicted. It can get a bit pricey, so I try to limit myself to going once or twice a month.

My question is that if I'm going to be eating a lot of meat (protein) on a particular night and let's say it happens to fall on one of my rest days...could I even do a min workout in my arms shortly before going to dinner? I ask because the meat I will be eating soon after my little workout would start to help repair my muscles quickly right?

Yesterday, a friend of mine surprised me with a all you can eat ticket at this type of place and we ate a ton of meat and vegetables. This fell on the day after upper body day, but my arms were not sore at all yesterday from 2 days before. I did a short mini workout for about 20 minutes and went to eat with my friend.

While eating dinner and all the rest of last night, my muscles were feeling pumped and tingly. It was almost as if I could feel the protein repairing my muscles in real time...is that possible to even feel?

I woke up this morning and my arms look and feel a tiny bit bigger, so I think it did help. I just thought I would ask people on here if they workout before a meal that is high in protein?

[Farley1324]

I wanted to ask a random question, but I don't want to make a new thread about it.

Here in Japan, there are a lot of these yakiniku (fried meat) restaurants, which are these places where you cook your own meat and vegetables.

It is my favorite type of meal in the world and I'm addicted. It can get a bit pricey, so I try to limit myself to going once or twice a month.

My question is that if I'm going to be eating a lot of meat (protein) on a particular night and let's say it happens to fall on one of my rest days...could I even do a min workout in my arms shortly before going to dinner? I ask because the meat I will be eating soon after my little workout would start to help repair my muscles quickly right?

Yesterday, a friend of mine surprised me with a all you can eat ticket at this type of place and we ate a ton of meat and vegetables. This fell on the day after upper body day, but my arms were not sore at all yesterday from 2 days before. I did a short mini workout for about 20 minutes and went to eat with my friend.

While eating dinner and all the rest of last night, my muscles were feeling pumped and tingly. It was almost as if I could feel the protein repairing my muscles in real time...is that possible to even feel?

I woke up this morning and my arms look and feel a tiny bit bigger, so I think it did help. I just thought I would ask people on here if they workout before a meal that is high in protein?

Absolutely. But spinach is even better. You may want to pre-rip your shirt sleeves (particularly if they are long sleeves) before combining that meat with spinach, though. You've been warned.

[TheGymJim]

I wanted to ask a random question, but I don't want to make a new thread about it.

Here in Japan, there are a lot of these yakiniku (fried meat) restaurants, which are these places where you cook your own meat and vegetables.

It is my favorite type of meal in the world and I'm addicted. It can get a bit pricey, so I try to limit myself to going once or twice a month.

My question is that if I'm going to be eating a lot of meat (protein) on a particular night and let's say it happens to fall on one of my rest days...could I even do a min workout in my arms shortly before going to dinner? I ask because the meat I will be eating soon after my little workout would start to help repair my muscles quickly right?

Yesterday, a friend of mine surprised me with a all you can eat ticket at this type of place and we ate a ton of meat and vegetables. This fell on the day after upper body day, but my arms were not sore at all yesterday from 2 days before. I did a short mini workout for about 20 minutes and went to eat with my friend.

While eating dinner and all the rest of last night, my muscles were feeling pumped and tingly. It was almost as if I could feel the protein repairing my muscles in real time...is that possible to even feel?

I woke up this morning and my arms look and feel a tiny bit bigger, so I think it did help. I just thought I would ask people on here if they workout before a meal that is high in protein?

Slightly starting to feel like we're being trolled here.

[thethinman0007]

Absolutely. But spinach is even better. You may want to pre-rip your shirt sleeves (particularly if they are long sleeves) before combining that meat with spinach, though. You've been warned.

There must be some truth to that. I have read that spinach is really healthy and it is delicious!

Popeye was a really odd, but interesting show lol.

So eating a lot of protein just after a workout won't help my muscles grow faster?

[thethinman0007]

Slightly starting to feel like we're being trolled here.

Swear I'm not trolling. I know it looks that way, but I'm really new to all this.

[Farley1324]

Swear I'm not trolling. I know it looks that way, but I'm really new to all this.

Follow the (novice) routine you are doing as written, end of story.

[IneRan]

There must be some truth to that. I have read that spinach is really healthy and it is delicious!

Popeye was a really odd, but interesting show lol.

So eating a lot of protein just after a workout won't help my muscles grow faster?

Your muscles are either going to grow, or not grow. Eating a chicken breast after your workout is probably a fine idea if you want to do it, but you're not going to wake up the next morning with stretch marks because of how big your muscles are.

As a novice I think you can gain a 1lb a week of muscle at the absolute optimal conditions (probably never happens). So if you are 150 pounds, and that muscle is added evenly to your body given your routine, that would be a .66% change in your body. You're not going to notice it until you see a before and after picture months down the road.

Simple math example, if you have a 13 inch bicep, if you successfully add a pound to your frame that is evenly distributed, you'll have a 13.08 inch bicep. It's not that easy, but you get the idea. You're not going to notice it.

Eat 500 more calories than it takes for you to maintain your current body weight.
Try to aim for 1g of protein for every pound of body mass.
Follow a novice strength and mass building routine.

Also, "no pain no gain" is something high school coaches tell whiny children to get them to complete the exercises they're doing. My workouts are very difficult, but I don't associate them with pain.

You'll be successful if you do that.