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  1. #31
    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    What's significant is getting 12 in the second set when you got 11 last time. That's what I'd expect to see - making the area under the curve fatter - a valid form of progression IMO.
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  2. #32
    Registered User Benchmate's Avatar
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    What do you think about these selections? Ive kind of used this progression method for 8 weeks now. Only difference was I've been trying to get same reps for all sets. Worked like a charm for 6 weeks, now I've started to plateue, so I consider trying this!

    Bench - 4 sets - 6-10 reps
    OHP - 3 sets - 6-10 reps
    Incline bench - 3 sets - 6-10reps

    Row - 4 sets 6-10 reps
    Lat pulldowns - 3 sets - 6-10 reps
    One arm DB row - 3 sets - 6-10 reps

    Squat - 4sets - 6-10 reps
    Straight legged deadlift - 3 sets - 6-10 reps
    Leg press - 4 sets - 8-12 reps
    Front squat - 3 sets - 6-10 reps
    Deadlift - 3sets - 3-7 reps


    Feedback appreciated. Training for mass (bodybuilding).
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  3. #33
    Team No Calves Luca2's Avatar
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    Benchmate, would you consider yourself an intermediate lifter? What are your lifts?

    "Trying to get same reps for all sets" means you are doing straight sets, not SP's progression.
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  4. #34
    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Benchmate View Post
    What do you think about these selections? Ive kind of used this progression method for 8 weeks now. Only difference was I've been trying to get same reps for all sets. Worked like a charm for 6 weeks, now I've started to plateue, so I consider trying this!

    Bench - 4 sets - 6-10 reps
    OHP - 3 sets - 6-10 reps
    Incline bench - 3 sets - 6-10reps

    Row - 4 sets 6-10 reps
    Lat pulldowns - 3 sets - 6-10 reps
    One arm DB row - 3 sets - 6-10 reps

    Squat - 4sets - 6-10 reps
    Straight legged deadlift - 3 sets - 6-10 reps
    Leg press - 4 sets - 8-12 reps
    Front squat - 3 sets - 6-10 reps
    Deadlift - 3sets - 3-7 reps


    Feedback appreciated. Training for mass (bodybuilding).
    Rep ranges look fine. Don't be afraid of pushing them to 12 instead of 10 - if you are doing an RPE 9 in the first set, you'd be using about the same weight as for sets across with 10 reps anyway.

    You don't have a lateral delt exercise. I would also replace front squat or leg press with leg extension or sissy squat. The point of isolating the knee is to train the rectus femoris (which is in active insufficiency during hip and knee extension).
    Last edited by SuffolkPunch; 08-23-2017 at 12:27 PM.
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  5. #35
    Registered User Benchmate's Avatar
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    I am intermediate for sure. 73kg bodyweight, bench 110kg, squat 135kg (injury atm..), deadlift 165kg, ohp 60kg.
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  6. #36
    Registered User Benchmate's Avatar
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    Hold your horses, this is not my entire routine! I just listed some main compounds that i shift focus between. Currently bench squat dl and ohp is focus. I do all the required isolation as accesory movements, dont worry.

    Hmm, i never went for 12s on the compound, might give it a shot, as the reps will go down with time anyway.
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  7. #37
    Team No Calves Luca2's Avatar
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    Today's weighted dip log:

    @ BW+45 kg, rep target 12
    1 x 12 (RPE 9.5)
    3 x 9 (RPE 9-10)

    Felt kinda weak on the back-off sets, but I shall blame it on the Sicilian summer heat (am back home for a couple weeks...).
    "Listen, I want you to come down here and go dancing with me and we'll have fun together. You know you like The Spaniard, you know you like The Sith Lord, you know that. Hello? You're blushing, I know you're into The Sith Lord, I know it! Hello? Hello? Helloooo? Aww I lost connection."
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  8. #38
    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    ^ Travelling takes it out of you - so I'm not surprised at all.

    BTW, I've been playing with cluster sets for lower rep higher weight protocols:

    Example: If you want to put up cluster sets the equivalent of 2 hard sets
    - Take your 5RM (e.g. 110kg for pendlay rows
    - Do sets of around RPE 8. Take the shortest possible rest times before doing more sets - until you've done 10 reps in total
    - e.g. you might end up doing mini-sets: 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1 -- with between 10 and 30 seconds rest between

    To progress, you expect rest times to shorten and/or the number of reps per mini-set to increase.
    I would like to give guidelines on when to add weight (e.g. when you reach 4,3,3) but I suspect this is going to vary a lot from one person to the next. Being able to use a weight 3 times and make progress each time before increasing weight is a good benchmark.
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  9. #39
    Team No Calves Luca2's Avatar
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    ^ Interesting! Suppose it would work well on exercises where I want to avoid anything above RPE 8 to prevent form breakdown (i.e. heavy DLs).

    Aaaand today's weighted dip log:

    @ BW+47 kg, rep target 10
    1 x 10 (RPE 9)
    1 x 9 (RPE 9)
    1 x 9 (RPE 9.5)
    1 x 8 (RPE 9.5)

    Not sure whether I should have stopped short of 10 on the first set, as I had already exceeded RPE 8? (You mention stopping two reps before failure on the first set.) The target range is still 10-12.

    Incidentally, I am currently doing this 2x week due to equipment limitations (the only major compound press I can do here is dips), but will switch back to 1x week once I'm back in the UK.
    "Listen, I want you to come down here and go dancing with me and we'll have fun together. You know you like The Spaniard, you know you like The Sith Lord, you know that. Hello? You're blushing, I know you're into The Sith Lord, I know it! Hello? Hello? Helloooo? Aww I lost connection."
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  10. #40
    Tu papi Jasonk282's Avatar
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    This is exactly what I've been doing for the past 3 months.

    Great minds think alike
    OG
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  11. #41
    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Luca2 View Post
    ^ Interesting! Suppose it would work well on exercises where I want to avoid anything above RPE 8 to prevent form breakdown (i.e. heavy DLs).

    Aaaand today's weighted dip log:

    @ BW+47 kg, rep target 10
    1 x 10 (RPE 9)
    1 x 9 (RPE 9)
    1 x 9 (RPE 9.5)
    1 x 8 (RPE 9.5)

    Not sure whether I should have stopped short of 10 on the first set, as I had already exceeded RPE 8? (You mention stopping two reps before failure on the first set.) The target range is still 10-12.

    Incidentally, I am currently doing this 2x week due to equipment limitations (the only major compound press I can do here is dips), but will switch back to 1x week once I'm back in the UK.
    Doing the RPE 8,9,10 approach is more conservative whereas picking your rep targets in advance is (for most people) more aggressive, it just depends whether your body adapts and turns that 9 into an 8 between sessions (say if you did 10 reps again next time).
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  12. #42
    Team No Calves Luca2's Avatar
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    Bump + weighted dip update.

    Am back to my usual gym and have switched to 1x week frequency as originally intended.
    Felt tired today due to poor sleep yesterday night.

    @ BW (87 kg) + 50 kg, rep target 12
    1 x 10 (RPE 8.5)
    1 x 9 (RPE 9)
    1 x 9 (RPE 9)
    1 x 8 (RPE 9.5)
    "Listen, I want you to come down here and go dancing with me and we'll have fun together. You know you like The Spaniard, you know you like The Sith Lord, you know that. Hello? You're blushing, I know you're into The Sith Lord, I know it! Hello? Hello? Helloooo? Aww I lost connection."
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  13. #43
    Team No Calves Luca2's Avatar
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    And another bump (Suffolk, lmk if you'd prefer I log in the log section/a separate thread).

    Dropped to 3 sets as I find 4 sets of high-ish reps quite taxing, plus I want to allocate more volume to another chest exercise.

    @ BW (88.1 kg) + 50 kg, rep target 12

    1 x 11 (RPE 9)
    1 x 8 (RPE 10; hands slipped mid-set...may consider using chalk)
    1 x 9 (RPE 9)
    "Listen, I want you to come down here and go dancing with me and we'll have fun together. You know you like The Spaniard, you know you like The Sith Lord, you know that. Hello? You're blushing, I know you're into The Sith Lord, I know it! Hello? Hello? Helloooo? Aww I lost connection."
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  14. #44
    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    That's fine by me - good work by the way

    Still using cluster sets for heavy lifts and the simplified RPE based progression for lighter lifts. Can't see the need for anything more complex ...

    I have an article on intuitive training - what to track/program and what doesn't need it... I sat on it for a while and I'm glad I did because I'm probably going to revise it slightly having run with it for a while.
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  15. #45
    Team No Calves Luca2's Avatar
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    Cool, look forward to reading it.

    Have you written any threads I might have missed about cluster sets?
    "Listen, I want you to come down here and go dancing with me and we'll have fun together. You know you like The Spaniard, you know you like The Sith Lord, you know that. Hello? You're blushing, I know you're into The Sith Lord, I know it! Hello? Hello? Helloooo? Aww I lost connection."
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  16. #46
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    @ BW (88.2 kg) + 50 kg, rep target 12

    1 x 12 (RPE 9.5)
    1 x 9 (RPE 9.5)
    1 x 8 (RPE 9)
    "Listen, I want you to come down here and go dancing with me and we'll have fun together. You know you like The Spaniard, you know you like The Sith Lord, you know that. Hello? You're blushing, I know you're into The Sith Lord, I know it! Hello? Hello? Helloooo? Aww I lost connection."
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  17. #47
    Team No Calves Luca2's Avatar
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    @ BW (88.6 kg) + 52.5 kg, rep target 12

    1 x 10 (RPE 9.5)
    1 x 8 (RPE 9)
    1 x 7 (RPE 10)
    "Listen, I want you to come down here and go dancing with me and we'll have fun together. You know you like The Spaniard, you know you like The Sith Lord, you know that. Hello? You're blushing, I know you're into The Sith Lord, I know it! Hello? Hello? Helloooo? Aww I lost connection."
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  18. #48
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    Originally Posted by Luca2 View Post
    Have you written any threads I might have missed about cluster sets?
    It's pretty simple really, just set a total rep target, e.g. 10 reps for deadlifts. Do sets of RPE 8-9 until you've done all the reps. You can set some target like getting 5 reps in the first set to decide when to advance the weight.

    e.g.
    5 x 150 @ 9
    3 x 150 @ 9
    1 x 150 @ 8.5 -- 2 reps would have been too hard
    1 x 150 @ 9


    Another one I've been using is repeats. I don't really buy the idea that number of sets really counts towards total volume when they aren't "hard" sets - i.e. at least RPE 8. So you can just pick a weight and keep doing a set number of reps until you hit some RPE - e.g. 9. This works well if you aren't sure what weight to use and for reps between around 3 and 10. Advance the weight or increase the reps if you are taking too long to reach your RPE target.

    e.g.

    5 x 100 @ 7
    5 x 100 @ 7.5
    5 x 100 @ 8
    5 x 100 @ 9

    It's harder to judge total volume with these methods, I tend not to think about total sets and think more about the affect the sets have - there has to be enough to degrade performance significantly otherwise your body is just too adapted to the stimulus. Repeats demonstrates clearly to you what this drop in performance is - in this example, 4 sets was enough to go from RPE 7 -> 9
    Last edited by SuffolkPunch; 10-09-2017 at 07:07 AM.
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  19. #49
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    ^ Thanks for the write-up!

    Today I did my dips again. Was supposed to hit 52.5 kg x 11 in the first set, but only got 10 (RPE 9.5) - the same as last week. My current rep range is 10-12. Should I drop the range by two and move to 8-10?
    "Listen, I want you to come down here and go dancing with me and we'll have fun together. You know you like The Spaniard, you know you like The Sith Lord, you know that. Hello? You're blushing, I know you're into The Sith Lord, I know it! Hello? Hello? Helloooo? Aww I lost connection."
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  20. #50
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    Originally Posted by Luca2 View Post
    ^ Thanks for the write-up!

    Today I did my dips again. Was supposed to hit 52.5 kg x 11 in the first set, but only got 10 (RPE 9.5) - the same as last week. My current rep range is 10-12. Should I drop the range by two and move to 8-10?
    Yes, you could do that - unless you feel there is a reason you didn't hit your target today - like you had a bad nights sleep last night, or every other exercise was also lower than usual. If that's the case then you could try again next time.
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  21. #51
    Team No Calves Luca2's Avatar
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    Got it, thanks!

    Sleep was, in fact, poor last night (I am a chronic insomniac and although I do everything I can to mitigate the issue, it's something I just have to deal with sometimes).
    Last edited by Luca2; 10-13-2017 at 01:16 PM.
    "Listen, I want you to come down here and go dancing with me and we'll have fun together. You know you like The Spaniard, you know you like The Sith Lord, you know that. Hello? You're blushing, I know you're into The Sith Lord, I know it! Hello? Hello? Helloooo? Aww I lost connection."
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  22. #52
    Crawling back under rock OldFartTom's Avatar
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    @okayest --> Poliquin is best known for late intermediate and elite strength. This is an autoregulated hypertrophy, so there will be some differences. Not saying which is better for who, just saying will be different

    @SP --> How would you say this compares to simpler intermediate like MadCow (I know that's more strength) which are Linear Progression at first glance but due to regular reset are actually an undulating or saw-tooth progression when viewed on a longer perspective.

    What's your view on autoregulated versus say: undulating? (For intermediate)
    Last edited by OldFartTom; 10-14-2017 at 03:16 AM.
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  23. #53
    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    ^ Yes, any good routine has some method of taking you away from the scenario where you are banging your head against a wall trying to lift a weight you keep failing at. Madcows does it in a semi autoregulated way although it misses a trick by keeping the volume the same throughout IIRC.

    Undulating periodisation - or any system that is pre planned and attempts to map itself onto the actual ups and downs of your ability - all these are subject to the same basic issue. Does it suit you or not? Ultimately some kind of feedback is needed to correct your course of action depending on if it's working or not. Autoregulated routines in theory do this more often and match your abilities more closely - if it's done properly.

    In my view there is nothing particularly special about undulating or any other form of periodisation. It's just a systematic way of working around the repeated bouts effect but that's basically all it really does. There is a zone between too much and not enough variety in rep ranges, weight changes, exertion, exercise variety etc. You can have too little and get the repeated bout effect or overuse injuries. You can have to much and miss out on directed adaptation. This is why I like the simple idea of sticking with a weight for 2 or 3 workouts and then increasing, intuitively that feels about the right kind of balance to me.
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  24. #54
    Registered User IronKrazy's Avatar
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    Suffolk, if you can give some insight to this....

    Right now I'm doing a basic linear progression with auto regulation using + sets on the 3rd set. Example is 3x6+ and I'm capping the AMRAP set at 12. Last session of squats I got 2x6/1x12 @ 200lbs. What do you think of a + set regulated routine? Yes it's working now but will it be logical once I, hopefully, get to near 315lbs?

    In your eyes this is not the optimal way to progress/regulate? Would you have me working up or "warm up" to my set of 12 or fresh AMRAP on squats with 205lbs and then for the remaining sets get in the reps to = 24?

    With the info in your thread here it's laying out a "total reps" or "rep goal" system correct?

    Thanks.
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  25. #55
    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    Sounds fine in principle - just that the numbers you've chosen are a little odd. If you can do 12 in your last set, the other sets of 6 sound a tad too light to me. Maybe increase the weight when the plus set gets over 8.
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    Sounds fine in principle - just that the numbers you've chosen are a little odd. If you can do 12 in your last set, the other sets of 6 sound a tad too light to me. Maybe increase the weight when the plus set gets over 8.
    Ok thanks. And lol honestly it's because I started back up on a proper schedule after not having lifted/squatted in a while. I started light/right and chose to do a "modified" version of SS with a tick more volume and auto regulated with + sets at the end. I didn't want to hit a wall early and fatigue the hell out of myself coming back so fresh.

    The original idea of the 3x6+ came from Omarisuf's video. Yes at 8+ he says to add 2.5% or pretty much 5lbs. 6-7 stay and less than subtract 2.5% Though I started quite light just to make sure I could handle the volume and that my body was ready. huehue!

    My routine I came up with is:

    Squat/Bench/Ohp - 3x6+ (Cap @ 12 Reps)
    Deadlift 2x5+ (Cap @ 10 Reps)
    Pen Row 4x6+ (Cap @ 12 Reps)

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  27. #57
    Team No Calves Luca2's Avatar
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    Weighted dip update time!

    Got myself some liquid chalk, and happy I did.

    @BW (88.8 kg) + 55 kg, rep range 8-10

    1 x 9 (RPE 9.5)
    1 x 7 (RPE 9)
    1 x 7 (RPE 9)
    "Listen, I want you to come down here and go dancing with me and we'll have fun together. You know you like The Spaniard, you know you like The Sith Lord, you know that. Hello? You're blushing, I know you're into The Sith Lord, I know it! Hello? Hello? Helloooo? Aww I lost connection."
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  28. #58
    Team No Calves Luca2's Avatar
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    Stressful week outside the gym, and definitely felt the impact today. First set was a true all-out effort and affected my back-up sets.

    @BW (88.5 kg) + 55 kg, rep range 8-10

    1 x 10 (RPE 10)
    1 x 6 (RPE 9)
    1 x 5 (RPE 9)
    "Listen, I want you to come down here and go dancing with me and we'll have fun together. You know you like The Spaniard, you know you like The Sith Lord, you know that. Hello? You're blushing, I know you're into The Sith Lord, I know it! Hello? Hello? Helloooo? Aww I lost connection."
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  29. #59
    Team No Calves Luca2's Avatar
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    Took a break due to some shoulder/elbow issues. Back at it today and was pleasantly surprised not to have lost any strength.

    @BW (90.3 kg) + 57.5 kg, rep range 8-10

    1 x 8 (RPE 9)
    1 x 6 (RPE 9)
    1 x 6 (RPE 10)
    "Listen, I want you to come down here and go dancing with me and we'll have fun together. You know you like The Spaniard, you know you like The Sith Lord, you know that. Hello? You're blushing, I know you're into The Sith Lord, I know it! Hello? Hello? Helloooo? Aww I lost connection."
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  30. #60
    Team No Calves Luca2's Avatar
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    @BW (90.8 kg) + 57.5 kg, rep range 8-10

    1 x 9 (RPE 9)
    1 x 6 (RPE 9)
    1 x 6 (RPE 9)
    "Listen, I want you to come down here and go dancing with me and we'll have fun together. You know you like The Spaniard, you know you like The Sith Lord, you know that. Hello? You're blushing, I know you're into The Sith Lord, I know it! Hello? Hello? Helloooo? Aww I lost connection."
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