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  1. #211
    On The True Path Dorich's Avatar
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    I would give my life for Zionism.
    "Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

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  2. #212
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    Originally Posted by Dorich View Post
    I would give my life for Zionism.
    This is absurd
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  3. #213
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    Originally Posted by squanto View Post
    You can't have it both ways. If you recognize anti-Jewish racism you have to understand that saying a country should be for the Jewish people is also racist.

    Also, look, you cannot kill unarmed civilians. There aren't exceptions, there's no justification. That's textbook international humanitarian law. If it's a protest you have to put your big boy pants on and deal with it via law enforcement like any other country is expected to. Israel isn't above the law.
    You don't understand what racism is. You don't understand the difference between someone that is killed and someone who is murdered. So obviously you won't understand how you are perpetuating Palestinian suffering by indirectly supporting a mafia that gets paid by the blood of children.

    You are a waste of time.


    Originally Posted by AA43560 View Post
    Simple question,

    I assume you support the jewish right to get insta citizenship if they come from abroad (aliyah). Like say a jew from brooklyn.

    Would you support a palestinian, say from LA, that can prove he has ancestry in the land coming in for the same?

    Lets assume he is apolitical and doesnt support BDS for simplicity sake.
    Short answer is yes, conditionally.

    Obviously the average "Palestinian" has paid the price of Arab nations abandoning them, and corrupt Palestinian leaders profiting on their "suffering" aka the resistance for the last 70+ years.

    I have compassion, and yes I would be open to it. I don't deny there are homes in Jerusalem and homes in Akko and homes in Jaffa, built by Arabs, lived in by Arabs for generations, then displaced during the war of Independence in 1948, and have since belonged to Jewish families for 2-3 generations. Our narratives are different on how that came to be. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And I'll never turn my back on hope for peace and reconciliation. I understand concessions have to be given, and believe that Jews and Arabs can live peacefully together, in Israel or America or Tunis or Casablanca, or Bagdad. How can two peoples be cursed to hate each other for eternity? That doesn't make sense and doesn't follow history. Germany is a good friend of America...and Israel, as an example. Most people with common sense understand the Palestinians have a valid claim. But most people are also not idiots and realize they've only hurt themselves over the years, and each year that passes the validity of their claim weakens by their very own actions. And I'm speaking about the leaders. The Palestinian "people" are just pawns in Fatah and Hamas' leaders game to stay in power.

    Palestinian leaders have rejected each offer of a state that's been given to them. Instead, they have responded by leading their people towards confrontation and condoning barbaric violence, when they had opportunity after opportunity for peace and prosperity. Looking back over the past 70 years of this strategy it's pretty clear it's backfired horribly. Their prospect for a state has just about vanished. If the younger generation follows their parents and grandparents footsteps they will eventually be completely cut off from the Arab world. Arab States have too much to risk supporting terrorist regimes, and too much to gain normalizing relations with Israel. The 1970's have passed 50 years ago. These are the current trends and this is the trajectory, unfortunately, for the average Palestinian that just wants to put bread on his table and make sure his kids are healthy and happy.

    It's really a shame for them, since the conditions are and have been pretty simple: Palestinian leaders, and Palestinian people have to denounce terrorism for good. Not on CNN while building up the Tanzim. Shabach is too intelligent for that nonsense. Informer's are on every street from Tulqarem to Jenin. Fatah/Hamas is still rewarding Palestinians that murder civilian Israelis in cold blood, and honoring them as martyrs. Let's face it. This is still happening in 2020.

    So no. While this leadership is in power, in the West Bank, and Gaza, heroicising "Palestinians" who murder innocent Israelis, one would have to be a fool to think Israel would openly hand out Israeli citizenship to Palestinians that claim they or their ancestors were displaced almost 100 years ago.

    Let's start there. Remove the corrupt terrorist mafias that promote children committing suicide, shahidim rewarded with streets named after them for slaughtering Israelis with axes in their sleep, etc..Then we can discuss the specific terms for your buddy in LA. For one, he ain't getting his great great grandfathers house back in Jaffa. But Id be open to him living in South Tel Aviv and receiving all the rights of an Israeli. He would have to go to the IDF, of course, but you know that....and not all Palestinians that make this claim will be granted. In fact most won't. But that's a different story. That was the long answer to yes, I'm open to your boy in Cali becoming a Magavnic, conditionally, if he is.

    .....Now let me ask you. Do you think a (real) peaceful political party will ever assume leadership in the West Bank and Gaza? A party who's leaders denounce the killing of a random Jewish woman just because she lives in the Averam Aveynu neighborhood of Hebron?

    If I recall even your position was she was "fair game".. do you still believe this?
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    Originally Posted by spadelexus View Post




    Short answer is yes, conditionally.

    Obviously the average "Palestinian" has paid the price of Arab nations abandoning them, and corrupt Palestinian leaders profiting on their "suffering" aka the resistance for the last 70+ years.

    I have compassion, and yes I would be open to it. I don't deny there are homes in Jerusalem and homes in Akko and homes in Jaffa, built by Arabs, lived in by Arabs for generations, then displaced during the war of Independence in 1948, and have since belonged to Jewish families for 2-3 generations. Our narratives are different on how that came to be. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And I'll never turn my back on hope for peace and reconciliation. I understand concessions have to be given, and believe that Jews and Arabs can live peacefully together, in Israel or America or Tunis or Casablanca, or Bagdad. How can two peoples be cursed to hate each other for eternity? That doesn't make sense and doesn't follow history. Germany is a good friend of America...and Israel, as an example. Most people with common sense understand the Palestinians have a valid claim. But most people are also not idiots and realize they've only hurt themselves over the years, and each year that passes the validity of their claim weakens by their very own actions. And I'm speaking about the leaders. The Palestinian "people" are just pawns in Fatah and Hamas' leaders game to stay in power.

    Palestinian leaders have rejected each offer of a state that's been given to them. Instead, they have responded by leading their people towards confrontation and condoning barbaric violence, when they had opportunity after opportunity for peace and prosperity. Looking back over the past 70 years of this strategy it's pretty clear it's backfired horribly. Their prospect for a state has just about vanished. If the younger generation follows their parents and grandparents footsteps they will eventually be completely cut off from the Arab world. Arab States have too much to risk supporting terrorist regimes, and too much to gain normalizing relations with Israel. The 1970's have passed 50 years ago. These are the current trends and this is the trajectory, unfortunately, for the average Palestinian that just wants to put bread on his table and make sure his kids are healthy and happy.

    It's really a shame for them, since the conditions are and have been pretty simple: Palestinian leaders, and Palestinian people have to denounce terrorism for good. Not on CNN while building up the Tanzim. Shabach is too intelligent for that nonsense. Informer's are on every street from Tulqarem to Jenin. Fatah/Hamas is still rewarding Palestinians that murder civilian Israelis in cold blood, and honoring them as martyrs. Let's face it. This is still happening in 2020.

    So no. While this leadership is in power, in the West Bank, and Gaza, heroicising "Palestinians" who murder innocent Israelis, one would have to be a fool to think Israel would openly hand out Israeli citizenship to Palestinians that claim they or their ancestors were displaced almost 100 years ago.

    Let's start there. Remove the corrupt terrorist mafias that promote children committing suicide, shahidim rewarded with streets named after them for slaughtering Israelis with axes in their sleep, etc..Then we can discuss the specific terms for your buddy in LA. For one, he ain't getting his great great grandfathers house back in Jaffa. But Id be open to him living in South Tel Aviv and receiving all the rights of an Israeli. He would have to go to the IDF, of course, but you know that....and not all Palestinians that make this claim will be granted. In fact most won't. But that's a different story. That was the long answer to yes, I'm open to your boy in Cali becoming a Magavnic, conditionally, if he is.

    .....Now let me ask you. Do you think a (real) peaceful political party will ever assume leadership in the West Bank and Gaza? A party who's leaders denounce the killing of a random Jewish woman just because she lives in the Averam Aveynu neighborhood of Hebron?

    If I recall even your position was she was "fair game".. do you still believe this?
    1. The fact that you put palestinian in parentheses shows that not much progress has been made.

    2. Arab nations have definitely abandoned us generally speaking.

    3. I dont feel like getting into the palestinians rejecting every opportunity thing, because that is not how it played out in actual history.

    4. Palestinians are well aware of shabak being everywhere and are surprisingly well versed on their tactics, trust me on that. What they are saying on the street corners and what they are saying on CNN is not conradictory. The message is pretty simple, the resistance will continue, no one is denying that. But it stops as soon as a real non one sided peace agreement is presented that gives the average palestinian something to live for.

    5. Palestinians definition of a martyr is pretty irrelevant. Israel will always decry ANYONE the palestinians call a martyr because they are at war. So its a pointless discussion. The same way israel names towns after trump and streets after ben gurion, begin, herzl, balfour. Palestinians find all of those despicable and revolting, but again its a pointless discussion. There will stop being martyrs to name streets after as soon as a dignified deal is presented.

    6. Im glad you have an open mind to right of return.

    7. Sure, its more than possible as soon as israeli society becomes a bit more civilized and elects someone with an interest in peace. Its not gonna happen in a vacuum while netanyahu is still "mowing the lawn". Even hamas, completely committed to armed resistance has changed its views to be more diplomatic towards israel.

    Thats not a "random jewish women" living in hebron. Thats a weapon, and you should denounce the far right israeli government for using these insane settlers (who even urban israelis dislike, notice a pattern?) as cannon fodder and weapons. Obviously, the israelis dont want them anywhere near their own society.

    Its almost akin to releasing a pack of dogs with rabies into another nations city. Except these dogs, besides biting people and generally being a nuisance, take over huge swathes of land.

    So yes I still believe it. You're talking about a settler (an overwhelmingly amount with genocidal views), literally cordoning themselves off in the middle of a PALESTINIAN CITY. Its even more egregious than building on palestinian land. If I was in charge, those people would be FORCIBLY removed (and any violent resistors dealt with appropriatley). But thats me because I dont like the idea of killing people that arn't acively holding a weapon. However if they get attacked and killed? Completely fair game. They arnt living in tel aviv or netanya, so lets establish that distinction. An extremist "civilian" strategically placed is more effective than a weapon.
    Last edited by AA43560; 04-17-2020 at 05:30 PM.
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  5. #215
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    Originally Posted by AA43560 View Post
    1. The fact that you put palestinian in parentheses shows that not much progress has been made.

    2. Arab nations have definitely abandoned us generally speaking.

    3. I dont feel like getting into the palestinians rejecting every opportunity thing, because that is not how it played out in actual history.

    4. Palestinians are well aware of shabak being everywhere and are surprisingly well versed on their tactics, trust me on that. What they are saying on the street corners and what they are saying on CNN is not conradictory. The message is pretty simple, the resistance will continue, no one is denying that. But it stops as soon as a real non one sided peace agreement is presented that gives the average palestinian something to live for.

    5. Palestinians definition of a martyr is pretty irrelevant. Israel will always decry ANYONE the palestinians call a martyr because they are at war. So its a pointless discussion. The same way israel names towns after trump and streets after ben gurion, begin, herzl, balfour. Palestinians find all of those despicable and revolting, but again its a pointless discussion. There will stop being martyrs to name streets after as soon as a dignified deal is presented.

    6. Im glad you have an open mind to right of return.

    7. Sure, its more than possible as soon as israeli society becomes a bit more civilized and elects someone with an interest in peace. Its not gonna happen in a vacuum while netanyahu is still "mowing the lawn". Even hamas, completely committed to armed resistance has changed its views to be more diplomatic towards israel.

    Thats not a "random jewish women" living in hebron. Thats a weapon, and you should denounce the far right israeli government for using these insane settlers (who even urban israelis dislike, notice a pattern?) as cannon fodder and weapons. Obviously, the israelis dont want them anywhere near their own society.

    Its almost akin to releasing a pack of dogs with rabies into another nations city. Except these dogs, besides biting people and generally being a nuisance, take over huge swathes of land.

    So yes I still believe it. You're talking about a settler (an overwhelmingly amount with genocidal views), literally cordoning themselves off in the middle of a PALESTINIAN CITY. Its even more egregious than building on palestinian land. If I was in charge, those people would be FORCIBLY removed (and any violent resistors dealt with appropriatley). But thats me because I dont like the idea of killing people that arn't acively holding a weapon. However if they get attacked and killed? Completely fair game. They arnt living in tel aviv or netanya, so lets establish that distinction. An extremist "civilian" strategically placed is more effective than a weapon.
    The bold is really the only part of this discussion that's relevant. Until you, the Palestinian people, and the Palestinian leadership understand that discriminatly targeting and attacking innocent civilians is morally reprehensible, and a war crime, Israel will maintain the moral high ground in this conflict and the status quo will continue.

    Not just that, but as I mentioned, and history has proven, you will continue to loose support around the world.

    You are supporting terrorism and antisemitism by saying an unarmed civilian can be slaughtered simply because they are Jewish.

    I hope one day you will understand every word in this post.
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    Originally Posted by spadelexus View Post
    The bold is really the only part of this discussion that's relevant. Until you, the Palestinian people, and the Palestinian leadership understand that discriminatly targeting and attacking innocent civilians is morally reprehensible, and a war crime, Israel will maintain the moral high ground in this conflict and the status quo will continue.

    Not just that, but as I mentioned, and history has proven, you will continue to loose support around the world.

    You are supporting terrorism and antisemitism by saying an unarmed civilian can be slaughtered simply because they are Jewish.

    I hope one day you will understand every word in this post.
    They are not civilians, i dont see how you dont understand that. Not only are a significant portion armed themselves, or at the very least with an armed entourage, they are being weaponized by the zionist government. Its not bill and marysue with their white picket fence, mailbox and dog.

    There is literally no antisemetism to be found in my post. The settlers can be mongolian and I would hold the same views. Hell, they can be palestinian citizens of israel that are zionists. Its the ideology thats the problem.
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    Originally Posted by AA43560 View Post
    They are not civilians
    Going to have to stop you right there. You are doing what Squanto just did and making up your own definition of a word because you are losing an argument. They are 100% without a shadow of a doubt civilians. Look up the definition of "civilian" if you don't know what that word means.

    There are very few black and white issues in this debate. Very few.

    "Intentionally targeting to kill civilians" is one of those black and white issues.

    The grey area issues are on the matter of settlements, right of return, etc... there are valid arguments that can be made on either side, and both Palestinians and Israelis will need to have an open mind on these topics if there will ever be a lasting peace.

    However, these grey area issues are completely irrelevant, when Palestinians, like Hamas and like yourself, fundementally believe that targeting to kill civilians is somehow justifiable.

    I'm sorry you haven't realized this yet. Change your stance on civilians being "fair game" and we can continue the discussion.
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  8. #218
    Registered User squanto's Avatar
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    For the record, I didn't make my own definition of civilians when I said Israel kills civilians. I deferred to the international authorities and respected mainstream international humanitarian organizations. None of it was my opinion.

    You, on the other hand insisted they were wrong. Basic facts of the conversation.
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    Originally Posted by squanto View Post
    For the record, I didn't make my own definition of civilians when I said Israel kills civilians. I deferred to the international authorities and respected mainstream international humanitarian organizations. None of it was my opinion.

    You, on the other hand insisted they were wrong. Basic facts of the conversation.
    No you called me racist for saying "Arab States", claimed Zionism is racist, then compared antisemitism to Israeli immigration policy. You either don't understand what racism is, or were just using it as some type of buzz word insult to demonize me/Israel, after you were caught lying, and after I detailed the extreme level of inaccuracy and falsehood in your accusation Israel committed war crimes during the march of return. What's disturbing to me, is after I showed you Hamas confessed to war crimes by using children as human shields, you completely ignored it.

    "Intentionally" killing civilians is a war crime/crime against humanity. This is what AA43560 just confessed he supports. Bizarre that you are such an expert on international law, and defender of human rights, yet you didn't speak up to defend Jewish civilians being targeted. Shame on you.

    On the other hand, Israel goes above and beyond to minimize civilian casualty figures, when it's being attacked by militants using human shields in order to maximize the number of their own civilian casualties. Israel does not target, or kill civilians intentionally and regrets the loss of innocent Palestinian life, while defending itself under fire.

    Let's hear what the actual experts have to say about your erroneous claims...

    Col. Richard Kemp, one of the most highly decorated and respected officers in the British Military:

    "...the Israeli Defense Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in the combat zones than any other army in the history of warfare.”

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_2175491
    Also-

    "The highest-ranking U.S. military officer said...that Israel went to “extraordinary lengths” to limit civilian casualties...and that the Pentagon had sent a team to see what lessons could be learned from the operation."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...0IQ2LH20141106
    Complete idiocy you still don't get it after all these years.
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    Originally Posted by spadelexus View Post
    No you called me racist for saying "Arab States", claimed Zionism is racist, then compared antisemitism to Israeli immigration policy. You either don't understand what racism is, or were just using it as some type of buzz word insult to demonize me/Israel, after you were caught lying, and after I detailed the extreme level of inaccuracy and falsehood in your accusation Israel committed war crimes during the march of return. What's disturbing to me, is after I showed you Hamas confessed to war crimes by using children as human shields, you completely ignored it.

    "Intentionally" killing civilians is a war crime/crime against humanity. This is what AA43560 just confessed he supports. Bizarre that you are such an expert on international law, and defender of human rights, yet you didn't speak up to defend Jewish civilians being targeted. Shame on you.

    On the other hand, Israel goes above and beyond to minimize civilian casualty figures, when it's being attacked by militants using human shields in order to maximize the number of their own civilian casualties. Israel does not target, or kill civilians intentionally and regrets the loss of innocent Palestinian life, while defending itself under fire.

    Let's hear what the actual experts have to say about your erroneous claims...
    I said it sounded racist when you malign entire countries because they happen to be Arab. I said it sounded racist, because it does.

    An openly ethnocentric state is racist, yes. It's fun to see you squirm around the reality of the situation though.

    Also, it says a lot that you pick a couple military brass as experts on humanitarian issues, but can't we accept the opinions of United Nations, Amnesty International, The Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, Reporters Without Borders, Human Rights Watch when they say Israel violated international law. I wonder why that is?

    By the way, here's a picture of one of Israel's terror attacks on civilians with chemical weapons (white phosphorous) that they were universally condemned for.

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    goingcia is offline
    My honest opinion on this?

    I have absolutely no dog in this fight but these arguments always boil down to israel supporters writhing the fukk out of common sense and logic with technicalities to counter basic facts. Anyone with a brain can see that israel is clearly and openly in the wrong and the situation is not as complicated as they like to claim.

    And that's all I have to say about that.
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  12. #222
    ☦Русский ישראלי✡️ LubitelPelmen's Avatar
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    paliestine just quit already, you stand no chance in winning this war.
    since the state of israel was born the arab world claimed it will be destroyed "soon" and its been over 70 years already... theyre still trying... and still failing. and you know why? because theyre dumb.
    in this time its mostly intelligence and money that will determine if one will win a war, not the biggest army with the best soldiers/warriors (ofcourse that still counts but not as much as it did back then).
    palestines strategies are just outdated. their boohooooo tactics dont work either as theyre horrible actors.

    so how is pallywood and the arab world gonna solve this? spend more money on better education to create better developed countries so they can actually outsmart their enemies? nahhh why not buy some rockets with that money and try to kill as much israelis as possible right?
    haha but thats a outdated strategy. pathetic.

    everytime paliestine and their supporters etc. make a step forward, they make two back afterwards. maybe its time to change strategies...
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  13. #223
    Registered User John$Galt's Avatar
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    John$Galt is offline
    Originally Posted by goingcia View Post
    My honest opinion on this?

    I have absolutely no dog in this fight but these arguments always boil down to israel supporters writhing the fukk out of common sense and logic with technicalities to counter basic facts. Anyone with a brain can see that israel is clearly and openly in the wrong and the situation is not as complicated as they like to claim.

    And that's all I have to say about that.
    Agreed. However, as an American, you do have a dog in this fight. Our country has spent trillions of dollars and tens of thousands of American lives to take out israel's enemies in the ME, at zero benefit to the USA.
    You have glorious wings.
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