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  1. #1
    Banned Pungiish's Avatar
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    Nobody using phat anymore?

    Did phat turn out to be bad for natties, or is it good enough for me to grow some muscle?
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    Registered User Fatification's Avatar
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    Its a lot of volume, which is why I run Phul
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  3. #3
    pay the iron price SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    It's just an UL PPL which isn't bad.

    It does have a crapload of volume which isn't necessarily a good thing.

    Also, people may have realised that if you run a hybrid program you won't get great at either powerlfting or physique. Specialising is always better. Most people who aren't planning to compete as powerlifters or other types of athletes basically have physique goals. I think they only go to something like PHAT because they think the 'strength' part will improve the main goal of aesthetics. But this is problematic - strength is very specific to the task you apply it to - it's functional training and unless you are very specific about what the 'function' is then you don't have any real target to aim at.
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  4. #4
    Banned Pungiish's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    It's just an UL PPL which isn't bad.

    It does have a crapload of volume which isn't necessarily a good thing.

    Also, people may have realised that if you run a hybrid program you won't get great at either powerlfting or physique. Specialising is always better. Most people who aren't planning to compete as powerlifters or other types of athletes basically have physique goals. I think they only go to something like PHAT because they think the 'strength' part will improve the main goal of aesthetics. But this is problematic - strength is very specific to the task you apply it to - it's functional training and unless you are very specific about what the 'function' is then you don't have any real target to aim at.
    Thanks for the detailed response.
    Actually, that's exactly what i was thinking about. Stronger muscle = bigger muscle. I guess that's not entirely correct, do you recommend me doing a ppl routine without exercises in the 5 rep ranges? Aka generic 8-12 reps on all lifts including compounds?
    Would metallicapda's ppl be ok in terms of hypertrophy goals
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  5. #5
    pay the iron price SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    The correlation between strength and hypertrophy is not a simple one. For novices, we often say it's the same thing - and we would be (almost) correct since they can do both at the same time without penalty. For intermediate+ it's better to begin to specialise.

    It's not just about rep range, I would say it's more down to muscle groups targetted primarily. I am chasing 10% @ 85kg as a medium term goal and to achieve that, I activate as much muscle as possible with roughly equal emphasis. Whereas if you train for powerlifting, you'd emphasise quads, posterior chain, pec, front delts and triceps.

    I recommend moving towards ANY split that works a muscle group about once in 2-3 days for an intermediate, I don't care what it is, I'm not even that concerned about overlap too much.

    I recommend using linear periodisation for hypertrophy. Typically starting at higher reps (12-15) and ending up at lower reps (5-8) over the medium term (mesocycle).

    More on that here:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=173498591
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  6. #6
    Team No Calves Luca2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    The correlation between strength and hypertrophy is not a simple one. For novices, we often say it's the same thing - and we would be (almost) correct since they can do both at the same time without penalty. For intermediate+ it's better to begin to specialise.

    It's not just about rep range, I would say it's more down to muscle groups targetted primarily. I am chasing 10% @ 85kg as a medium term goal and to achieve that, I activate as much muscle as possible with roughly equal emphasis. Whereas if you train for powerlifting, you'd emphasise quads, posterior chain, pec, front delts and triceps.

    I recommend moving towards ANY split that works a muscle group about once in 2-3 days for an intermediate, I don't care what it is, I'm not even that concerned about overlap too much.

    I recommend using linear periodisation for hypertrophy. Typically starting at higher reps (12-15) and ending up at lower reps (5-8) over the medium term (mesocycle).

    More on that here:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=173498591
    Great post as always. On spread!
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  7. #7
    Banned Pungiish's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    The correlation between strength and hypertrophy is not a simple one. For novices, we often say it's the same thing - and we would be (almost) correct since they can do both at the same time without penalty. For intermediate+ it's better to begin to specialise.

    It's not just about rep range, I would say it's more down to muscle groups targetted primarily. I am chasing 10% @ 85kg as a medium term goal and to achieve that, I activate as much muscle as possible with roughly equal emphasis. Whereas if you train for powerlifting, you'd emphasise quads, posterior chain, pec, front delts and triceps.

    I recommend moving towards ANY split that works a muscle group about once in 2-3 days for an intermediate, I don't care what it is, I'm not even that concerned about overlap too much.

    I recommend using linear periodisation for hypertrophy. Typically starting at higher reps (12-15) and ending up at lower reps (5-8) over the medium term (mesocycle).

    More on that here:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=173498591
    Thank you very much!
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  8. #8
    Registered User calvilloIsGod's Avatar
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    I've been running it for 1 month and plan to keep it going for most of the summer. The results are there, and the DOMS feel great.

    You don't see anybody talking about it here because;

    1. People are not willing to commit into going 5 days in the gym/are snowflakes who get discouraged right away by the volume.
    AND/OR
    2. People on this board are getting bullied into running one of the stickied program. Want strength? Run Fierce 5. Want size? Run Fierce 5. Want to **** HBBs? Run Fierce 5. Want to get rich? Run Fierce 5.

    It's gotten to the point where it's a comedy. People who run hypertrophy oriented programs or brosplits are "idiots who know nothing about balance". Meanwhile, in any gym out there there's nobody you see who actually hog on to the squat rack/bench press and do only compounds while seeing great results. Seriously. Have you already seen some big guys who do this? And ask them, they'll all say they don't max out or go balls to the walls on a 3 days split, and have never been doing so. People say "well the gains will come slower". Even if it's true, who the hell cares. You're going to max out to your genetics treshold within 5-7 years anyway. And how you'll get there is by eating and sleeping well. The routine you're using is actually not all that relevant if you're consistent and don't **** around doing hundreds of biceps curls and triceps kickbacks.

    So yeah. Long story short, PHAT is great. Anybody who says he's running it and not pressing 1 plate/benching 2 plates/squatting 3 plates/deadlifting 4 plates though will get bullied/pressured into running Fierce 5 or Barebones. And ridiculously, this pressure will sometimes even come from guys who have been running one of these for months and struggle benching 1 plate. Go figure.
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  9. #9
    Registered User FaIIen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by calvilloIsGod View Post
    I've been running it for 1 month and plan to keep it going for most of the summer. The results are there, and the DOMS feel great.

    You don't see anybody talking about it here because;

    1. People are not willing to commit into going 5 days in the gym/are snowflakes who get discouraged right away by the volume.
    AND/OR
    2. People on this board are getting bullied into running one of the stickied program. Want strength? Run Fierce 5. Want size? Run Fierce 5. Want to **** HBBs? Run Fierce 5. Want to get rich? Run Fierce 5.

    It's gotten to the point where it's a comedy. People who run hypertrophy oriented programs or brosplits are "idiots who know nothing about balance". Meanwhile, in any gym out there there's nobody you see who actually hog on to the squat rack/bench press and do only compounds while seeing great results. Seriously. Have you already seen some big guys who do this? And ask them, they'll all say they don't max out or go balls to the walls on a 3 days split, and have never been doing so. People say "well the gains will come slower". Even if it's true, who the hell cares. You're going to max out to your genetics treshold within 5-7 years anyway. And how you'll get there is by eating and sleeping well. The routine you're using is actually not all that relevant if you're consistent and don't **** around doing hundreds of biceps curls and triceps kickbacks.

    So yeah. Long story short, PHAT is great. Anybody who says he's running it and not pressing 1 plate/benching 2 plates/squatting 3 plates/deadlifting 4 plates though will get bullied/pressured into running Fierce 5 or Barebones. And ridiculously, this pressure will sometimes even come from guys who have been running one of these for months and struggle benching 1 plate. Go figure.
    I see what you're saying and I sort of agree. But why bother with something like PHAT, if you can add weight on the bar each session with half the work? Kids jump on these high volume programs not even knowing how to properly execute the lifts - which most likely is the case if you're not above the "magical" 2/3/4 plates.
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  10. #10
    Banned Pungiish's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FaIIen View Post
    I see what you're saying and I sort of agree. But why bother with something like PHAT, if you can add weight on the bar each session with half the work? Kids jump on these high volume programs not even knowing how to properly execute the lifts - which most likely is the case if you're not above the "magical" 2/3/4 plates.
    Because obvs im not a beginner anymore and i need volume?
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by calvilloIsGod View Post
    The routine you're using is actually not all that relevant if you're consistent and don't **** around doing hundreds of biceps curls and triceps kickbacks.
    Some alright points in this. and some less so, like this^^.

    Any routine that's likely to cause serious imbalances is not going to be good to run for most people.
    Excepting professional athletes who will somewhat put results before health, most people asking for advice on here are never going to be professionally anything and are just looking to improve themselves somewhat.

    Condoning a routine that could lead to long term issues isn't something I think any decent person would do.

    Now the forum has it's biases obvs, whether they are justifiable or not is up for each person to decide on their own.
    But to extend this to the ridiculous claim that routine is irrelevant is pretty stupid.

    "People who run hypertrophy oriented programs" < now this.. Correct me if I'm wrong Viking. But I'm pretty sure Bare Bones is hypertrophy orientated..
    Hell Fierce 5 is a lot more hypertrophy orientated than SL SS TM.

    Suffolk also has some good threads he's made on hypertrophy programming.
    and funnily enough has already commented on this thread about how the Strength focus in PHAT lessens it's use as a Hypertrophy routine...
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  12. #12
    Registered User FaIIen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Pungiish View Post
    Because obvs im not a beginner anymore and i need volume?
    Apologies OP, but my post wasn't directed at you.

    Layne posted some wilks recommendations for PHAT, can't remember what it is but I agree - it should be the minimum. I'm above that and I don't need this much volume.
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    Originally Posted by FaIIen View Post
    Apologies OP, but my post wasn't directed at you.

    Layne posted some wilks recommendations for PHAT, can't remember what it is but I agree - it should be the minimum. I'm above that and I don't need this much volume.
    I think it was just PH3 that had the wilks minimum (350).
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  14. #14
    Banned Pungiish's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FaIIen View Post
    Apologies OP, but my post wasn't directed at you.

    Layne posted some wilks recommendations for PHAT, can't remember what it is but I agree - it should be the minimum. I'm above that and I don't need this much volume.
    ¸

    ok, sorry, didn't know you were generalizing.

    I decided to do coolcicadas ppl with the rep ranges and progression suffolk mentioned
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    It's by far the best well known routin I've ever used. I absolutely loved it and had great results from it. It's very taxing though, so doing a deload every several weeks or taking a short break completely is definitely important...also I wouldn't recommend it for someone who hasn't been lifting for a long time
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