Do holocaust deniers actually believe what they're saying?

[Ten_Hearts]

You guys should look up the Red Cross Factual Appraisal of the Holocaust that basically says only a couple hundred thousand people died in the camps and only around half of them were Jews.

There's also the World Almanac count for Jews between 1933 and 1948 that show an increase in the Jewish population throughout the Nazi Regime/when the Holocaust would have happened. Totally antithetical to the notion that millions died over a few years.


Oh yeah, you want a genocide that did happen on a mass scale? Look up the Holodomor and the people behind it.

Red Cross refuted that assertion in the 1970s. They never attempted to compile statistics on victims during the war nor did they verify third party statistics. Apparently that figure was originally from an 1950s article and the 300,000 statistic only references German Jewish and non-Jewish victims.

World Almanac did not compile any new census data after the war. It wasn't until 1949 post-war estimates for populations were factored.



Information on all of these things is readily available yet I always see that same points come up. You are either terrible at research, disingenuous, or a troll.

[Ten_Hearts]

Probably the biggest pass in world history is given to the Japanese and what they did to the Chinese during WWII. Probably just as bad as the Nazis if not worse, and yet no mention as of yet in this thread. Google Unit 731 to have your mind blown at the extent to which history is written by the victors (and narratives shaped according to their political needs).

It's deeply reassuring to me that there are others out there who have noticed the same peculiarities about the version of history we are taught in school and what larger ends are furthered by its indoctrination. Perhaps more will wake up in time.

There were war crimes trials for the Japanese...like the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal. Or are you arguing more of them should have been hanged?

[sooby]

When it is a crime to deny the holocaust or even dispute certain things about it, something is definitely up. There definitely have been a lot of lies and misinformation surrounding it. That whole turning Jews into lampshades and soap was proven false. People even dispute the use of gas chambers. Also, numbers are constantly being revised, I've heard 6 million, 4 million, 2 million, etc. Which is it?

Honestly though it's hard to believe 6 million Jews were killed by being put into concentration camps, that seems fairly excessive. Not to mention the tons of other non-Jews that were put in these camps that most people conveniently fail to acknowledge. IMO the 270K number put out seems fairly reasonable. Still a horrible tragedy though regardless. But the truth about the Holocaust is still very important, and facts should not be bent no matter what. People will revise history to justify their objectives, and some of them are fairly disastrous and can lead to future atrocities, even if some if it was done to protect a certain group or with the best of intentions.

There is also a lot of information being hidden that hasn't been revealed yet by British and various other European and American government

[metco]

I don't think they are denying that it happened they are denying the numbers. At what point does a million bodies look like 6 million? Pol Pot killed 2 million and all it looks like is piles of skulls.

[muzikslasher]

Nobody is denying it but why is that 6 million number so significant

[Ten_Hearts]

When it is a crime to deny the holocaust or even dispute certain things about it, something is definitely up. There definitely have been a lot of lies and misinformation surrounding it. That whole turning Jews into lampshades and soap was proven false. People even dispute the use of gas chambers. Also, numbers are constantly being revised, I've heard 6 million, 4 million, 2 million, etc. Which is it?

Honestly though it's hard to believe 6 million Jews were killed by being put into concentration camps, that seems fairly excessive. Not to mention the tons of other non-Jews that were put in these camps that most people conveniently fail to acknowledge. IMO the 270K number put out seems fairly reasonable. Still a horrible tragedy though regardless. But the truth about the Holocaust is still very important, and facts should not be bent no matter what. People will revise history to justify their objectives, and some of them are fairly disastrous and can lead to future atrocities, even if some if it was done to protect a certain group or with the best of intentions.

There is also a lot of information being hidden that hasn't been revealed yet by British and various other European and American government

How do land on that number? Jews were not only killed in the 6 death camps or in the concentration camps. Example Einsatzgruppen execute hundreds of thousands of Jews and we actually have a number of their operation reports. In 2 days according on Einsatzgruppen Operational Situation Report USSR No. 101 they executed 33,771 Jews (in kiev). So in 2 days we got 12% of your number.

[sooby]

How do land on that number? Jews were not only killed in the 6 death camps or in the concentration camps. Example Einsatzgruppen execute hundreds of thousands of Jews and we actually have a number of their operation reports. In 2 days according on Einsatzgruppen Operational Situation Report USSR No. 101 they executed 33,771 Jews (in kiev). So in 2 days we got 12% of your number.

Like I said, the fact that the numbers keep changing, certain evidence is being withheld, it being a crime to deny the holocaust and in some cases be critical of the so called facts being represented is enough to be skeptical of the amount of Jews that were actually killed, and actual claims being debunked.

I don't know what the number is exactly, but 6 million doesn't seem plausible and there are obvious reasons why people would inflate those numbers. Also, how many of those people were Slaves, homosexuals, gypsies, etc. Could they have not been grouped together in the death toll along with the jews? I admit I am no expert but again like I said there is a lot of misinformation surrounding the Holocaust. It's a tragedy nonetheless, but despite how horrific it is, it is important that the truth be uncovered and that it shouldn't be compromised as it can lead to further atrocities in the future.

[surf junkie]

beware doe.. when you start to looking this up and questioning what you learned and what reality is, you will see all of it for what it is.

and then you mention it here and get sent to camp permanently

[PenorBrahNoHomo]

[Austanian]

Like I said, the fact that the numbers keep changing, certain evidence is being withheld, it being a crime to deny the holocaust and in some cases be critical of the so called facts being represented is enough to be skeptical of the amount of Jews that were actually killed, and actual claims being debunked.

I don't know what the number is exactly, but 6 million doesn't seem plausible and there are obvious reasons why people would inflate those numbers. Also, how many of those people were Slaves, homosexuals, gypsies, etc. Could they have not been grouped together in the death toll along with the jews? I admit I am no expert but again like I said there is a lot of misinformation surrounding the Holocaust. It's a tragedy nonetheless, but despite how horrific it is, it is important that the truth be uncovered and that it shouldn't be compromised as it can lead to further atrocities in the future.

Why don't you think 6 million is plausible?

Not saying this is an accurate number, but why do you believe that it couldn't be done?

[Austanian]

Whenever the media really pushes a point, i question it. They always have an agenda and they need to be questioned. To just roll over and assume its all facts is not doing that.

Of course it happened but to what magnitude. Same with other issues right here in our country before the civil war, You know, it was not about slaves. It was about tariffs. If Lincoln cared so much for slaves, why did he wait until towards the end of the war to emancipate them?

Can you really read the South Succession letters and believe that it was for anything except slavery?

They literally tell you multiple times that they are leaving because of the hostilities against slavery right there in black and white.

[Ten_Hearts]

Like I said, the fact that the numbers keep changing, certain evidence is being withheld, it being a crime to deny the holocaust and in some cases be critical of the so called facts being represented is enough to be skeptical of the amount of Jews that were actually killed, and actual claims being debunked.

I don't know what the number is exactly, but 6 million doesn't seem plausible and there are obvious reasons why people would inflate those numbers. Also, how many of those people were Slaves, homosexuals, gypsies, etc. Could they have not been grouped together in the death toll along with the jews? I admit I am no expert but again like I said there is a lot of misinformation surrounding the Holocaust. It's a tragedy nonetheless, but despite how horrific it is, it is important that the truth be uncovered and that it shouldn't be compromised as it can lead to further atrocities in the future.

What evidence is being withheld? What evidence are you looking for? What is your standard of evidence? The fact that it is a crime to deny the Holocaust isn't exactly unique, example denial of the Rwandan genocide is illegal in Rwanda. But that is because it has nothing to historical truth and everything to do with promoting hatred and repulsive beliefs.

What do you mean the numbers keep changing? I've read history books on the subject from the 60s to current and the numbers seem fairly consistent (namely between 5-6 million. Slaves, homosexuals, gypsies, etc. have not been group with the Jews, those populations make up another 5 million individuals who were exterminated. Historians have estimated the total deaths in the holocaust to be 11 million.

Information has always been around for historians to interpret and legitimate historical works cover a wide range of topics and perspectives within the Holocaust. Holocaust revisionism however is not a legitimate historical review often dealing with knowingly ignoring, manipulating, or falsifying data. And the reason behind it is largely political or to demonize groups who suffered in the Holocaust.

[PenorBrahNoHomo]

What evidence is being withheld? What evidence are you looking for? What is your standard of evidence? The fact that it is a crime to deny the Holocaust isn't exactly unique, example denial of the Rwandan genocide is illegal in Rwanda. But that is because it has nothing to historical truth and everything to do with promoting hatred and repulsive beliefs.

What do you mean the numbers keep changing? I've read history books on the subject from the 60s to current and the numbers seem fairly consistent (namely between 5-6 million. Slaves, homosexuals, gypsies, etc. have not been group with the Jews, those populations make up another 5 million individuals who were exterminated. Historians have estimated the total deaths in the holocaust to be 11 million.

Information has always been around for historians to interpret and legitimate historical works cover a wide range of topics and perspectives within the Holocaust. Holocaust revisionism however is not a legitimate historical review often dealing with knowingly ignoring, manipulating, or falsifying data. And the reason behind it is largely political or to demonize groups who suffered in the Holocaust.

You're repeating a certain lie by saying that 5,000,000 non-jews were killed.

http://www.jta.org/2017/01/31/news-o...ust-historians