Plate-Loaded Machines

[Greybird2]

The movement you are designing appears to be a pullover instead of the Nautilus behind neck torso machine you referred to?

[TheLIFTHOUSE]

I have been a fitter/welder all my working life and have to say these are some great looking pieces Henry, and congrats on going hard at it again. I hope it works out for you this time as the equipment in those YouTube vids look killer man

[HenryMaag]

I have been a fitter/welder all my working life and have to say these are some great looking pieces Henry, and congrats on going hard at it again. I hope it works out for you this time as the equipment in those YouTube vids look killer man

Thank you, TheLIFTHOUSE


In reflection, I should add the comment, that, given your background, the complement is all the more meaningful coming from you (as we both know what dirty work metal fabrication can be).


Thanks again.

[HenryMaag]

The movement you are designing appears to be a pullover instead of the Nautilus behind neck torso machine you referred to?

I suppose that the movement that my machine is being designed to perform will become more evident when I finally get some pictures or video of it in use by end users.

[HenryMaag]

I have finished (and added) the body-constraint mechanisms to my machine's frame.


The machine's first body-constraint mechanism is a rotating seat assembly composed of a solid steel bar which I bent into a symmetrical loop, which I welded some seat-pad attaching plates to. I am calling it (generically) the machine's 'body-positioning arm' (a description which I use on all of my machines to denote a rotating assembly which repositions the operator for efficient body-positioning while using the machine). This 'body-positioning arm' is journaled in the machine's frame on a pair of flanges placed generally at seat height on the frame's two parallel triangular sections, as shown. Infinite adjustability of this rotating assembly is accomplished through the use of a frame-journaled screw-type crank assembly (turn the crank and the seat-arm assembly moves up and down).

The machine's second body-constraint mechanism is a rotating shoulder-engaging assembly composed of a solid steel bar which I bent into a symmetrical shallow 'U' shape, which I welded a pair of symmetrically placed steel curved sections to, in positions where they will engage the operator's opposite shoulders ('opposite' to the side being exercised). For infinite adjustment of this assembly, I attached an offset arm with a coupling nut at its end to the 'U' shaped bar portion of the assembly, which, in turn, journals a second screw-type crank assembly which can be used to infinitely adjust the position of the curved shoulder-engaging plates to the right or the left.





Upon placing some mock-up pads in the proper positions and testing this machine out for the first time, I have found it difficult to get my arms into the starting operating position when the cups are at the upper end of the range of motion from the seated position (wow, that's a big surprise, ha, ha, ha); so I am going to have to build a 'racking mechanism' into the machine which I had not designed into it originally. This may be difficult at this point because I did not make room for the mechanism when I originally designed the machine.

Back to the drawing board...


To be continued...

[HenryMaag]

Well. it turns out that there isn't much room for a 'racking mechanism' on this prototype; but I have squeezed one in where its can be actuated by the operator's free hand. I will admit that the couple of inches of clearance between the bottom end of the weights travel and the operator's hips while in the operating position is not much space for the actuating handle on the racking mechanism, but it is, unfortunately, all I have at this point.

This is all part of the machine design process (for those who may be interested). Like I said earlier, a prototype real-world model really does have to be built and tested in order to find all of the problems that may be associated with a particular machine design.



The racking mechanism, itself, is simply a solid steel rotating assembly which rotates up to engage a stop welded to the bottom side of the machine's weight arm assembly; causing it to lock its position. The weight arm assembly, of course, is 'linked' to the effort arm assembly by the connecting link; so when the weight arm is locked, so is the effort arm. I indexed the rotating assemblies to lock in a position that allows the operator to comfortably nestle their arm into the 'cup' on the effort arm in order to perform the exercise movement. With a little force downward on the cup, the racking mechanism automatically releases and a full range set can be performed. When finished the operator simply actuates the lever attached to the racking arm and rotates it up to engage the weight arm assembly, thus locking the machine's moving parts back in the original 'racked' position.


Well, its time to get the machine 'powder coated' and generally made presentable for public use (a concept that I never really learned with Lamb Bodybuilding Machines).


To be continued...

[HenryMaag]

Well, the prototype lat isolation machine is finished, and I have brought it to Fit Nation Gym in Norwalk, CA.


They will be using it and evaluating it over the next few weeks (or, perhaps, months). I have explained the adjustments to them and how to use the machine (it should be straightforward - like any simple machine).


I already know that the racking-mechanism must be improved upon (it simply isn't easily accessible from the operating position). Any comments regarding the racking-mechanism will simply reinforce my own observations.



I have made my own observations already, and am looking forward to their feedback. This is an excellent place to obtain useful feedback, because it constitutes a broad spectrum of actual 'end users' (from 5' tall 100lb females to 6'5" 250lb male bodybuilders). A gym is the perfect place to test a special machine (such as this), because it is full of members who will give it a try, especially on account of the fact that it can truly isolate the second largest muscle grouping in the human body.


Upon receiving feedback (especially from people who know how to train), adjustments to the design will be made based on the consensus of opinion. Obviously, I am not going to move the design in one direction (make a particular design change) for the sake of one person when 10 people are telling me that it needs to move the other direction.


Here are some pictures of the delivered prototype machine.



To be continued.....

[Greybird2]

Is this the machine you are trying to duplicate the movement of?

[HenryMaag]

Yes, that is the machine, or certainly a configuration of it. You can see, by looking at the picture, that it is designed to apply a 'humeral adduction movement' in the frontal plane, just like my design.

Aside from the faults that I listed earlier regarding Arthur's machine, I do believe that the humeral adduction movement in the frontal plane is a more efficient way to isolate and load the lattisimus dorsi muscles than a pullover movement.


I assume that I will be receiving either confirmation of (or perhaps denial of) this statement from end users actually experiencing this machine in the coming weeks at Fit Nation Gym.

[EricAtl]

Well, the prototype lat isolation machine is finished, and I have brought it to Fit Nation Gym in Norwalk, CA.


They will be using it and evaluating it over the next few weeks (or, perhaps, months). I have explained the adjustments to them and how to use the machine (it should be straightforward - like any simple machine).


I already know that the racking-mechanism must be improved upon (it simply isn't easily accessible from the operating position). Any comments regarding the racking-mechanism will simply reinforce my own observations.



I have made my own observations already, and am looking forward to their feedback. This is an excellent place to obtain useful feedback, because it constitutes a broad spectrum of actual 'end users' (from 5' tall 100lb females to 6'5" 250lb male bodybuilders). A gym is the perfect place to test a special machine (such as this), because it is full of members who will give it a try, especially on account of the fact that it can truly isolate the second largest muscle grouping in the human body.


Upon receiving feedback (especially from people who know how to train), adjustments to the design will be made based on the consensus of opinion. Obviously, I am not going to move the design in one direction (make a particular design change) for the sake of one person when 10 people are telling me that it needs to move the other direction.


Here are some pictures of the delivered prototype machine.



To be continued.....

You have previously posted videos of people using your machines. Can you post one for this piece.
Also is the seat height adjustable.
Thanks.

[HenryMaag]

Eric,


I will try to get some video of the machine in use after the members at the gym get better acquainted with it and its use.



Yes, the seat height is adjustable, as is the shoulder constraint pad. Between the two of them an operator will be able to find a 'sweet spot' where the machine feels good.

[ampire]

I really like these machines you made, it is a type of functional art/sculpture. You have a lot of talent.

[HenryMaag]

Thank you, Ampire

[HenryMaag]

Just as Greybird2 observed in post #117 of this thread, regarding the Nautilus version of this type of machine, the machine can be improperly used by rotating the forearms forward, thus transferring load from the latissimus muscles to the pectoral muscles.

TASOSCHATZ further confirmed in post #118, that using the machine with forearms rotated forward makes it a less efficient lat isolation machine (through significantly transferring load to the pectoral muscles - much like a cable crossover).



Through candidly observing end users using the machine at Fit Nation Gym, I have observed end users rotating their forearms forward. I don't fault them for this, it is simply a matter of what feels most natural. Someone who understands the body mechanics of this particular movement would know to keep their forearms rotated upward, but this can't be expected of the average person. So, in order to keep the machine performing functionally as I intended it (with the most efficient body tracking to isolate the latissimus muscles), I intend to apply a means of 'situational management' (the best way to make uninformed end users automatically use the machine correctly). My intention is to make a modification to the machine's effort arm assembly which will add handles to be gripped while performing the exercise, which will be located in such a position as to keep the operator's forearms rotated upwardly while performing the exercise.

While making this modification to the effort arm, I intend to also adjust the force-output profile (on account of feedback from the majority of end users - of whom I also happen to agree with) to shift the applied load from the beginning of the movement to the end of the movement, while concurrently making it possible to lift more weight (my observations tell me that there won't be anyone doing eight plates on this machine).



I plan on picking up the machine, making the modification, and returning it to Fit Nation Gym this coming weekend.



To be continued.....

[Greybird2]

I look forward to seeing your solution with handles.

[HenryMaag]

Well, here's a video of the prototype machine in action.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of0BwesSKE0

[ampire]

Well, here's a video of the prototype machine in action.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of0BwesSKE0

To my untrained eye, the shoulder position at the acromion looks much healthier when you have the handle.

[Greybird2]

Looks like your handle works. The video without the handle is exactly what I have observed on the old Nautilus machine. The first guy with the handle was actually failing at that weight because he could not bring his arms down. I would love to try that machine. Nice work.

[TASOSCHATZ]

If you could add a joint or something at the grip's base of the handles to offer the option of palms facing each other...

[HenryMaag]

It has been years since I have designed a new compound-movement leg machine. I designed the four 'classic' Lamb Bodybuilding Machines compound leg machines back in the late eighties through the early nineties (the Squat, the Seated Leg Press, the Glute Press, and the Inverted Leg Press). I think that it is time that I added a compound leg machine (or two) to the compound leg machines that I have already designed.


Just some background: a compound-movement leg machine is a machine in which an operator performs combined hip and knee joint extension in the same exercise movement against load. Squats and leg presses obviously apply, while leg extensions or hip raises do not.


For me, the first criterion in designing a new compound movement leg machine is that it must be significantly different from the compound movement leg machines that I have already designed (because I do not build machines which duplicate the same movement). The compound-movement which comes to mind for me is the 'hack squat', since I have not built a 'hack squat' before.



I am asking, at this point, for feedback from whoever may want to give me feedback, on what their own understanding of a 'hack squat' movement should be, and what their experience with present day 'hack squat' machine designs has been.


I my own opinion a true 'hack squat' should be a machine which emphasizes the 'lower' quads through a squatting type movement where the knees come out over the feet in the lower position, which, in turn, emphasizes the lower quads (just above the knees) in this position.

Present day designs for this machine utilize either a linearly-mounted sled assembly with a variety of foot placement possibilities provided by a large foot platform at the base of the machine. The problem with this design is twofold. The first problem is that, unless the operator is highly disciplined, they will place their feet too far forward (given the option) to effectively have the knees come out over the feet at the bottom of the movement. In effect, this makes the movement no more that a standard leg press. The second problem is that the load applied is constant resistance (the same at the top of the movement as at the bottom of the movement), and only a fraction of the load that can be handled at the top of the movement can be handled at the lower end of the movement. This type of machine should be variable resistance and should trace out a path that forces the operator into the knees-in-front-of-the-feet position at the bottom of the movement.

The other common design for this type of machine is a design which has come to be called a 'power squat' (for whatever reasons). In this design the operator engages shoulder and back support pads attached to a rotating assembly which has a low pivot point placed behind the operator, so that the operator moves his torso through an arc which can, given operator discipline (in where he places his feet), bring the knees out over the feet at the bottom of the movement. The problems with this design, like the problems with the linear sled-type design, are that the foot platform is so large that, while the movement is still better than the linear design, it is still possible (even probable) that the operator will place their feet too far forward. The second problem with this design, and it is even worse than the linear constant resistance design, is that the rotating assembly, because the weights are loaded at a point above the pivot point of the assembly and rotate upward, actually makes the applied weight at the shoulder pads get heavier toward the bottom where it should be getting lighter, making it an even less efficient 'hack squat' machine.


My intent is to design a 'hack squat' machine which, through the design and orientation of its moving parts, will provide a shoulder and back engaging 'carriage' assembly which will move through a path that will result in the operator's knees moving out over the feet at the bottom of the movement and rotating up into a position where they will end up in line with the feet at the top of the movement, while applying a progressively heavier weight throughout the movement to full extension. In addition, I intend to add a 'racking mechanism' for easy access to the machine.



I will keep all those who may be interested informed through future posts........

[HenryMaag]

ampire, Greybird2, and TASOSCHATZ;


Regarding the handles on the Lat Isolation machine.....

'the jury is out'.....

While they do force the operator to assume a 'healthier' and more effective arm position for targeting the 'lats', they have presented some problems. First of all, they constitute a potential hazard (slight as it may be) for bumping one's head when entering and exiting the machine. Secondly, they add weight to the machine's rotating effort arm assembly at a distance far offset from its axis of rotation, which has an exaggerated torquing effect on this assembly, which, in turn, causes significant changes in the stability of the machines moving assembly (translated - without weights loaded on the bar the effort arm can fall into the finished position and remain there which could, in turn, constitute a potential hazard).

I have contemplated the idea of possibly replacing the 'handles' with a tab at the front edge of the arm-engaging-cups which would prevent the forearm from rotating that direction when using the machine. Such 'tabs' would, however, make getting one's arms in and out of the machine more difficult, so it may not be a good idea.



Greybird2,

In fairness to 'the first guy' (in the video), he was performing the exercise before I made some changes to the moving assemblies which made it easier to lift more weight on the machine. There were some guys with very large strong latissimus muscles that could not do over a total of four 45 lb plates (total) in the original configuration.



TASOSCHATZ,

Can you further explain the idea of 'adding a joint or something at the grips base of the handles to offer the option of palms facing forward'?

[ironforgedgym]

Henry, looking forward to seeing what you come up with...I think there are several other examples aside from the carriage and low pivot options you referenced. The original tru-squat from southern exercise, If you limited the size of the foot platform would be awesome...it also was an early multi bar linkage design and it used to fry my lower quads....

Also while seemingly a newer option, the pivot presses made by Arsenal, Atlantis and Watson and a few others also seems to be a better mousetrap for lower quad development. Every video I've seen of folks using them they comment on effects on lower quads.

I would love to see something that looks like a hammer v squat but with a linkage that moves the resistance arm(s) through the range of motion tracking roughly at the same height as the user's hips...almost the opposite path of most of the belt squats on the market. Not sure if that makes sense or not but I have always wanted a better hack squat as well so I have thought about it a bit but not done anything aside from avoid hacksquats.

Regards,
Josh

[HenryMaag]

ironforgedgym,


Thank you for the response. You're right, there are many other examples of compound-movement leg machines which could be used to do 'hack squats'.


What I am envisioning is a compound-movement leg machine that will provide maximum knee joint rotation, while concurrently providing a minimum of hip joint flexion, so that the quadriceps muscles which cross both knee joints and hip joints between their origins and insertions remain maximally stretched out at the bottom of the movement. This, in my opinion, is the problem with most 'hack squat' machines: they allow the hip joints to flex forward in the lower part of the movement, which, in turn, diminishes the stretch on the quadriceps muscles at the bottom of the movement.



This is the problem with both the Tru-Squat by Southern Exercise and the Hammer V Squat. Both machines have far too much hip joint flexion at the bottom of their respective movements to provide for maximum stretch of the quadriceps muscles at the bottom of the movement.

The Tru-Squat, because the weights are loaded onto its rotating assembly at a point above the pivotal axis of the assembly, has a force-output profile which gets progressively lighter as the legs are extended, which is exactly opposite to the body-mechanics for any compound leg movement. (I can think of no athlete that can't do more weight in a half squat than a full squat, and more weight in a quarter squat than a half squat.)


I have viewed some videos of the Hammer V Squat being used, and like other 'power squat' machines, the rotating assembly rotates in such a way that the hip joints come down toward the ankle joints following an arc which falls off rearwardly at the bottom of the movement, causing the knee joints, in turn, to move rearwardly relative to the ankle joints at the bottom of the movement. I would prefer to see the hip joints thrust forward, relative to the ankle joints, at the bottom of the movement; causing, in turn, the knee joints to move out over the ankle joints, resulting in greater rotation of the knee joints at the bottom of the movement where the lower quads are the most stretched out.


Regarding your last paragraph, I think that we might be thinking a lot alike, and what you said regarding 'almost the opposite path of belt squats' did make sense to me.



We may both have thought about wanting a better 'hack squat' machine, and I have the fabricating machines to pull it off, and I intend to try.

[HenryMaag]

Just a progress update on the new prototype hack squat machine.


I think I will just start with some pictures, here they are.

[KBKB]

Just a progress update on the new prototype hack squat machine.


I think I will just start with some pictures, here they are.

Pics embedded.

[DBC00P]

get a youtube channel set up with videos of your machines

[HenryMaag]

After finishing the prototype hack squat machine (just recently), I have decided not to pursue it as a production offering. These are the reasons:

After building to my usual construction specifications (minimum 1/4" plate and 1.25" solid steel arms for moving parts) I have found that you had better have an "S" on your t shirt to even start to move it out of the 'hole' (even with no weights loaded on it). Secondly, because I do not (as a matter of practice) add counterweights to any of my machines, it will not be possible to correct this problem. Thirdly, in my own experience, I believe that this would undoubtably be a specialty machine; and if I can't sell a squat machine or seated leg press machine, there is no way I am going to sell this machine; so it isn't worth pursuing.

Just so members on this thread know that I haven't abandoned leg developing machines altogether, here are pictures of six other leg developing machines which I have built in the last four months (which I do intend to offer as production machines).

[HenryMaag]

It is, once again, Good Friday.


While I recognize that this is not a religious forum (and I don't intend to make it such); I do, each year on this day, make a comment on Christianity (being a devout Christian myself).


This year I simply want to say to those who are not Christian (or to those who are considering Christianity), that, "We do not follow any cunningly devised fables in our faith ...all events pertaining to Jesus and the 'work that He would do for mankind were spoken of hundreds of years before He arrived."

I would also like to add, that, "Our Creator, Himself, said, through His prophet Zephaniah, that "He would turn to the people of earth ...a 'pure' language": and I would like to suggest, to all that will hear it, that there is no language more 'pure' ...'universal' ...and 'clear' than giving His life for us. .....All men can relate to that!


Henry Maag

[ArnoldHAMnEGGer]

It has been years since I have designed a new compound-movement leg machine. I designed the four 'classic' Lamb Bodybuilding Machines compound leg machines back in the late eighties through the early nineties (the Squat, the Seated Leg Press, the Glute Press, and the Inverted Leg Press). I think that it is time that I added a compound leg machine (or two) to the compound leg machines that I have already designed.


Just some background: a compound-movement leg machine is a machine in which an operator performs combined hip and knee joint extension in the same exercise movement against load. Squats and leg presses obviously apply, while leg extensions or hip raises do not.


For me, the first criterion in designing a new compound movement leg machine is that it must be significantly different from the compound movement leg machines that I have already designed (because I do not build machines which duplicate the same movement). The compound-movement which comes to mind for me is the 'hack squat', since I have not built a 'hack squat' before.



I am asking, at this point, for feedback from whoever may want to give me feedback, on what their own understanding of a 'hack squat' movement should be, and what their experience with present day 'hack squat' machine designs has been.


I my own opinion a true 'hack squat' should be a machine which emphasizes the 'lower' quads through a squatting type movement where the knees come out over the feet in the lower position, which, in turn, emphasizes the lower quads (just above the knees) in this position.

Present day designs for this machine utilize either a linearly-mounted sled assembly with a variety of foot placement possibilities provided by a large foot platform at the base of the machine. The problem with this design is twofold. The first problem is that, unless the operator is highly disciplined, they will place their feet too far forward (given the option) to effectively have the knees come out over the feet at the bottom of the movement. In effect, this makes the movement no more that a standard leg press. The second problem is that the load applied is constant resistance (the same at the top of the movement as at the bottom of the movement), and only a fraction of the load that can be handled at the top of the movement can be handled at the lower end of the movement. This type of machine should be variable resistance and should trace out a path that forces the operator into the knees-in-front-of-the-feet position at the bottom of the movement.

The other common design for this type of machine is a design which has come to be called a 'power squat' (for whatever reasons). In this design the operator engages shoulder and back support pads attached to a rotating assembly which has a low pivot point placed behind the operator, so that the operator moves his torso through an arc which can, given operator discipline (in where he places his feet), bring the knees out over the feet at the bottom of the movement. The problems with this design, like the problems with the linear sled-type design, are that the foot platform is so large that, while the movement is still better than the linear design, it is still possible (even probable) that the operator will place their feet too far forward. The second problem with this design, and it is even worse than the linear constant resistance design, is that the rotating assembly, because the weights are loaded at a point above the pivot point of the assembly and rotate upward, actually makes the applied weight at the shoulder pads get heavier toward the bottom where it should be getting lighter, making it an even less efficient 'hack squat' machine.


My intent is to design a 'hack squat' machine which, through the design and orientation of its moving parts, will provide a shoulder and back engaging 'carriage' assembly which will move through a path that will result in the operator's knees moving out over the feet at the bottom of the movement and rotating up into a position where they will end up in line with the feet at the top of the movement, while applying a progressively heavier weight throughout the movement to full extension. In addition, I intend to add a 'racking mechanism' for easy access to the machine.



I will keep all those who may be interested informed through future posts........

please place the horns low if possible to reduce spinal compression and make the angle less than 40 degrees. us guys with bad lower backs will be very grateful. very much looking forward to seeing your upcoming Hack Squat.

I see that the Hack won't be happening. However, i'll add this anyway for what it's worth; i used to own a Paramount Pendulum Squat and while i believe it's an excellent piece and you could probably get away with doing it and leg curls and if you did enough hard sets could get a helluva workout on just those two movements alone. The Pendulum DID hammer the hell out of my quads and one way i would utilize it would be to descent hams to calves and slight raise my heels off the footplate. However, using this piece came at a cost. I found that the machine caused a good deal of compression on my low back. I understand that there's no way around that when going heavy and doing leg press to squatting type movement but still.

I've found that my old Flex Hack (my fav leg piece ever) actually gives my low back less grief than the Pendulum Squat did. I found that the Pendulum got worse compression-wise the closer you got to the completion of each rep. So, if someone could also make a Pendulum that could somehow lower the compression component of the movement that'd be incredible. If it's possible...i have no idea. Maybe someone could answer.

[HenryMaag]

The Pendulum DID hammer the hell out of my quads and one way i would utilize it would be to descent hams to calves and slight raise my heels off the footplate.

Your comment on how you used the pendulum-type squat reminds me of an old picture of Tom Platz doing deep hack squats on a linear-type hack squat machine (and we all know about Tom's incredible 'thigh sweep'). It is little wonder that the way you were performing your hack squats on the pendulum-type machine 'hammered the hell out of your quads' (you almost make me want to pursue my hack squat machine again).

However, using this piece came at a cost. I found that the machine caused a good deal of compression on my low back. I understand that there's no way around that when going heavy and doing leg press to squatting type movement but still.

I've found that my old Flex Hack (my fav leg piece ever) actually gives my low back less grief than the Pendulum Squat did. I found that the Pendulum got worse compression-wise the closer you got to the completion of each rep. So, if someone could also make a Pendulum that could somehow lower the compression component of the movement that'd be incredible. If it's possible...i have no idea. Maybe someone could answer.

I don't know about a pendulum-type squat being easy on the lower back for doing heavy weights. I can say that once people start experiencing the seated leg press machine which I build that information will start being gathered as to what machines can blast the quadriceps while still being very low stress on the lower back region.

I suspicion that the spinal discomfort was probably due more to the orientation of your lower spine in this particular movement than it was to the actual compression that it was experiencing (after all you can't do extremely heavy weights on a pendulum-type squat machine). When doing pendulum-type squats the lower back region tends to be slightly 'curved forward', while I am told that when lifting something heavy to arch the back 'curved rearward'.